MeJuana said:

I would be concerned about the chlorine level which I couldn't figure out what Potassium Chlorides working numbers are.. If I remember right fatman said 2 ppm chlorine, however chlorine tends to evap off right? hmm

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chlorine evaps off, but I've been having some issues with this myself lately. Apparently there are other things in chlorine, that screw up your PPM real bad. And they dont' evap off. So, I'm looking for a way to get pure chlorine without all the other crap they add to bleach etc...

I was looking into chlorine again it has always been a secret wish of mine to maintain a level of 2 ppm or so and you got me thinking which led me to find this...

BROYER ET AL-CHLORINE: MICRONUTRIENT ELEMENT (keyw: research, study, chlorine sources)

2 ppm Chlorine seems high, I think Federal Standard for tap water is 4 ppm. I've read that 1 ppm will kill bacteria as well. I've used chlorinated water a bunch with great results. But, I've started to use Microbes again and want to avoid chloride and ammonia. Interesting the results they where getting with the injections though. Maybe chlorine would be better used as a foliar spray? At least for ppl in soil or usng Microbes. Information on chlorine as disinfecion and general info:

http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants-chlorine.htm

Srry to post twice but i forgot.

Does anyone one know of a good pre mixed Trace Mineral Solution/Powder. Money is tight and it seems like buying one might be more cost effective than purchasing all seperate powders, at least in the short term. Thanks

This is not an answer to the micronutrient question, just happens to be the same subject.


It's a MeJuana link, make your own trace elements, potash, organically!! (tell me how you will measure them)



Edit: Just putting this link here to...

Content of fertilizers some info to look at.

i just realised that botanicare sweet is just 69 g/L epsom salts. it doesn't contain sugar (as i expected). used at 4 ml/L it adds 69ppm Mg.

I recently read an article, SciAm I think is where I saw it, where a couple of researchers determined that a combination of wood ash and human urine is better than other "complete" fertilizers they tried. Of course, you have to have good sources of both wood ash (got that covered) and human urine (don't quite have that covered).

Here we go:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-09/acs-sfu090209.php

I have found tomatoes to be not as demanding for Ca/Mg as squashes and peppers, so for some girls/methods additional Ca/Mg may be necessary.

That is awesome about the Sweet Crysmatic please continue to post things you realize.. :D Seamaiden you read my mind I was thinking of pissing in ashes for weed man.. LOL

Fatman's recipes I didn't know he had this simple thread
http://www.invalid.com/hydroponics-aeroponics/334895-nutrient-recipes.html

All botanicare products contain sugar. Haven't you ever wondered why they all smell the same. Even the Ferts have Raw sugar cane. I read one of 3LB posts on molasses the other day, and I can't find it again, but I swear he talked another sugar source in sweet. But you are correct the only real reason to use Sweet in conjuction with the Botanicare line is for the Ca/Mg from epsom salts. It does add Carbs tho and it has amino acids to help break down the sugars, but could be replaced with molasses, epsom salts, and some amino's.

I know there were post about the uneffectiveness of aminos in this thread, but if using carb, kelp, or any organic products they should help. If anyone uses these with success, it would be a good thread to start. I would but I have nothing but questions right now. Thanks

I think (but have no hard evidence) that the manufactures only have to list the "active ingredients". Which can be very missleading.

On example of this is the clearex which is just sugar water. BUT if you don't add some preservative it can and will form mold and assorted nasty things in it.

Yeah they only have to list ingredients that are hazardous and for some reason the aren't suppose to use decimals for npk unless its a kelp product ???? AG/Botanicare are in my opion are the best and most honest nute company out there. I'm pretty sure they list all ingredients unless it conflicts with only a few state laws, making it to big of a pain to make several products. For instance the PPBP Ferts contain fulvic acid although not listed. A friend of a friend works for Botanicare, I already emailed him about your clearex question. I let you know when I here back.

"Sweet contains glucose, fructose and sucrose. i.e. partially refined molasses. (almost raw sugar) i.e. alot of the potential sugar is still in the carbohydrate stage. i.e. Blackstrap Molasses."

Quoted from Fatman 5 minutes ago by email. I've kept constant contact with him since he was banned...it's great having the answer man to talk shop to without the trolls, posers and fools

He goes on to say>
"Molasses is just a non useful fad. It is beneficial with organics at low levels at higher levels it causes bactierial massive multiplication. i.e. grey stink reservoirs."

I tend to believe that statement but won't go as far as condemning it's use. I've only used it a few times in hydro. Most of the time it made a friggen mess of the resi with barely noticeable results


Sweet is a 26 dollar rip off IMHO. Epsoms and Blackstrap are super cheap by themselves and I'm sure you could easily make up your own version

PuFFnNugg said:

All botanicare products contain sugar. Haven't you ever wondered why they all smell the same. Even the Ferts have Raw sugar cane.

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many thanks puff!

i've used botanicare in the past and love it. can you get any more info on power plant grow/bloom? i'd love to copy it, without the 1-2 ppm of arsenic, mercury and lead.

what are the densities for power flower, cal mag, and sweet? adding sugar bumps up density, which makes ppm appear higher...i.e. the fert isn't as strong as it seems. my preliminary guesstimate is 315-100-475-250-175 ppm NPK-CaMg...

incidentally, fatman reproduces CNS17...are those botanicare's actual micronutrient ppm? (mejuana's link) i've been trying to figure out where he got 'his' micro profile.

i was thrown by sweet's label. how can sugar be an 'active ingredient' in clearex, but not be active in a product called 'sweet'? i just checked AN's site, and bud candy is 0.5% epsom salts. of course, i'd just bump Mg in my 2 part, and add a little sugar to my mixing bucket.

Check out Botanicare's website, look at individual products and you can zoom on the back label. Double check though because site needs to updated, I know that its says PB Pro Soil is 1% N but now is 1.5%, and you can see Silica lists the .5% which is still in there but can't be listed...don't get that law.

I would think they don't put ingredients for clearex, cause they don't really want ppl to catch on to how easy it is to make your own nutes. Even if you didn't have preservative you could just mix for end of cyle, ya know.
Though PB Pro would be one of the hardest to copy. Organics, Chem, Amino's, Humic, Fulvic, and Sugars, oh my!

Question I have is why do you only use at the end of cycle if its not breaking down salts? I've been adding just a touch of chem to my flush til I find out more. I sometimes flush with some hygrozyme for shits n giggles. That stuff locks nutes in your res i don't care what all the soil guys say, but thats another thread.

On another forum I was speaking of making my own ClearX with sugar instead of Glucose and here's a reply from someone I like with some good rumors/points.. What you guys think?

[quote author=atlashomeric link=topic=1858.msg21960#msg21960 date=1285179477]
Hygrozyme is an enzymatic formula, it helps to break down old root matter that can die and decay into harmful bacteria spores. Clearex is for flushing, the pentose sugars are good at breaking down salts, and also give your plant that extra bit of energy via carbs to use what nutrients they have stored in a last burst of growth that will leave your buds big and tasty. It helps with the drying and curing process.
[/quote]

-If clearex maintains the ionic balance of your root zone preventing a surge of water intake, then why don't you run it every flush?

-How long can you run straight water without these negative effects?

So its pentose sugar that is actually breaking down salt?

I've read, I think on this thread, that clearex has nothing to do with salt leaching. Just Carbs and the ion deal, so your plants will continue eating during flush, not just drinking water.

With that said do you think there is a benefit to running something in your water during weekly flush even if your flush only takes 1hr or 2. I know I wouldn't flush all day without something to preserve that balance.

Puffnug's statement:

I've never talked with Fatman, but from what I've read he is an Aero guy. What he doesn't mention or maybe know, is that Aero basically negates the positive effects of Myco's because the system itself produces such effective root mass. Thats why Aero runs such low parts, that and clogging issue, but Aero will burn easy. I now use 60% of the ppm's I used before Myco's because of the Aero like root structure. So its easy for me to see how someone in Aero would conclude Myco's ineffective. /QUOTE]

Here's Fatman's email reply to this last post by Puffnug' (please dont' shoot the messenger..)

>danielle,

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I thought I taught folks better than that. Myco is a result a lack of a good number of hair roots. Myco draws water and nutrients to lateral roots as there are insuficient hair roots reaching out for water and nutrients. Hair roots draw in nutrients and water through their tips which would extend beyond the Myco. Well 'haired out' root systems are totally non existent in nature. There is nearly always MYCO in abundance in nature as they are typically spurred on by the exudate that the roots release as a result of stress. Aero plants do not experience the stress and also do not have the medium to absorb and hold root exudate (if it was emitted) so no Myco. Would Myco help aero roots to any great extent?, NO, Myco proliferates in area parallel to root growth so as to draw water in perpendicular to root growth. Hair roots take up over 95% of the water and nutrients of aero plants with hair roots ...and as said before hair roots take in water/nutrients at their tips.

As for clogging, that is absurd.

As for low ppm nutrients it is because aero takes in minimal water in comparison to other plant growing methods, and it realeases very little of that water or its nutrients. We are spraying ml's of water not gallons. When I say aero I mean HP aero or air atomized aero.

Don't flame me..I'm not fatman (or fatgirl hehe) just his associate trying to help out. This is a thread with his name on it so don't you'all think it's good to have his input? By the way I cleaned up that email haha you can imagine..

Brain Fart

I'm a little lost, I thought this was about nutrient mixing. Did I miss a page? I've been reading as much as I can whenever I log on. Where'd the mycos come in? I could have sworn that was another thread.

Man.... maybe it's this White I'm smoking....

he's not attacking you..he's just saying that one part of your statement about low ppm's is wrong and I agree...totally. To clarify> aero is VERY EFFICIENT with a tons of root uptake.. and doesn't need high ppm...so your close on that one for sure

.. but the part about running higher ppms and clogging is pretty much a generalization..high ppm doesn 't neccesarily clog sprayers. However adding anything organic to the mix is asking for it imho...and his of course

I'm not sure what ultrasonic foggers has to do with it. I myself have a 40 disc homemade Ultrasonic Fogger and I wouldn't dare put any nutes in it...no way those discs are way too expensive and once they get build up on them they're real hard to bring back to a shiny surface. I know they use them in some aero applications with success. Maintainance is the key to keeping the discs clean..lots of maintainance

You gotta remember fatman is completely fanatically totally against adding any ORGANIC material in hydro..seriously against it. I tend to agree. Personally I will say I would be more inclined to add it to Coco or rockwool but never a pure water culture ie SWC, DWC or AERO.

He's all about sterile. The chlorine..it's all about the chlorine with Fatman. NOT H2O2 but chlorine. H202 burns off immediatly and chlorine at least stays for a few days if not 2

Keeping a steady PPM of chlorine in the resi' insures a clean system and healthy roots right? Regular chlorox unscented is fine. The extra stuff in chlorox is nil and void ie not a factor' or harmful as far I know. That's what f'man says...'''works grrrrreat

Since alot of the posters here are fatman fans ya'll are aware of all this so I'm not sure why I'm posting it. I do like the reminders myself...keeps me on the ball. Especially in my UC's..it's always fresh n' clean in there.

So puffnug don't get upset..your enthusiasm is great and your on the right track. I love your spirit... but it's hard to argue with the fatman and his DECADES of experience with hydroponics. Together we have near 50 years playing with this water game. I'm a dope compared to him but I realize that and soak it up whenever I get a chance...humbled is the word