(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

Crysmatic · May 27, 2011

organicfreak said:
Who's using organics?Who's buying from a nutrient company?
Just cause I have a name (organic freak) lol doesn't mean I'm still using organics..
FYI MY LINE UP IS:
canna coco A,b HOMEMADE
CALMAG+ HOMEMADE
silica blast HOMEMADE
myco,fulvic,humic,aminoacid HOMEMADE << ORGANIC
carboload HOMEMADE << ORGANIC
moab HOMEMADE
hammerhead HOMEMADE
snow storm
gravity << ORGANIC

As far as slim goes its from watering.. Lol smart pot's allows the water to drain from all the pours not just couple of holes in the bottom like a plastic pot...

Thats why I use carefree enzymes.. The one I'm using clears whole lakes of algea you know the green slim I was refering to
(this is why I use it @ .5ml/8gal instead of cannazyme WHICH DONT WORK @10ml/1gal)...
Not to mention 136$ for 5 liters of CANNAZYME...
I PAID 110 FOR A GALLON of carefree and if you do math...
USING 10ML OF CONTRATE MAKES 160 gals of feed water to cannazymes 10ml/1gal of feed water..

AND THIS IS WHY I CAN BLAME CANNA ALL I WANT.....
they have a enzyme product that DOESNT clean the roots/pots and leaves THE green slim and when dry a white salt like residue on the outside of the smart pot ...
BUT NOT WHEN I USE MY CARE FREE ENZYMES....
Canna also has a root product called rhizotonic equivalent to myco madness, great white, trantual /pirahanna.. etc ALL IT IS endo,ecto,bacteria trichederia, little kelp humic fulvic.. WHY NOT BUY BULK AND MIX YOUR OWN?????? save 100's... and again like cannazyme Ive used rhizotonic... rhizotonic works BUT NOT FOR THE PRICE(and the make your own does the same thing and is WAY CHEAPER...)

Where I'm from this is called puting your money were your mouth is and testing out products and leting others know my results DOESNT MAKE ME A FOOLISH NEWBIE BELIEVEING THE NUTRIENT COMPANY'S HYPE... IMHO make's me doing an
A & B comparison and comming up with AN EDJUCATED HYPOTHESIS...

AND yes fulvic/humic acid, kelp,silica and myco's are VERY IMPORTANT..
Did you know farmers,green house etc.. use these additives??? Just cause Nutrient company put pretty pictures and spend million's on advertisment doesn't mean we don't need what there selling...
Imho it means I don't need to spend the 100% markup for products my local farmer is using and mixing to grow my fruit/vegitables.... I can do the same and save 1000$'s of dollars I'M DOWN...

O

i'm not trying to be derogatory. i'm trying to sift through tonnes of info, much of which is complete bs, just like everyone else. what i want to avoid is hearsay, rumour, popular opinion, advertising rhetoric, and weak testimonials. of course i believe in diy...that's why i've posted dozens of recipes! you can state your opinion without being condescending.

genius is taking the complex and making it simple...or convincing people that they need additives. additives are the new religion...

yo do know what organic means, right? anything containing carbon i.e. CARBOhydrates, humic/fulvic, kelp, aminos. cannazyme works fine with canna A/B. it probably wasn't formulated to clear lakes. you're not using canna's products as directed, so again, you can't blame canna. ask fatman if he believes in additives...and this is his thread (as posted by squarepusher).

i'm an engineer, and have read many scientific papers, done my own experiments, and understand the scientific process as well as anyone. what i mean by 'proper experiment' is LARGE test group, a control group, and consistent, repeatable results. take any of those parts away, and it's bad science, and irresponsible to say your 'educated hypothesis.' a grower may pat himself on the back for 'testing' a new product on a few plants in one grow, but that doesn't mean $hit - it's statistically irrelevant! manufacturers hope you do a half-assed 'test', and come to the conclusion that the product works. that, imho, makes anybody a foolish newbie. six 3x3 tables grown sog is a good start; getting a repeatable baseline, and changing one variable at a time, and keeping all other parameters the same. then we can gather the data, make plots, linear regressions, statistical analysis, and then come up with some useful conclusions...or read other people's properly done studies. if anybody hasn't followed proper scientific method, I don't want them confusing the facts with bs.

of course farmers use organics. high applications of salts kills soil ecology. what makes sense outdoors, in soil, doesn't transfer indoors in hydro. if you add organics, you leave the door open to pathogens, bacteria, insects and molds. hydro growers already have enough problems without inviting more. we use salts that are very bioavailable, and we don't need mycos. did people grow chronic before mycos became popular a few years ago? and silica, and carbs, and aminos, etc. are all these additives making growing good bud simpler, or harder?

organicfreak · May 29, 2011

crys
I'M SRY...
I didn't mean to be harsh....

All I was telling the group was the humic,kelp,etc. could be bought on bulk,and budboy recomended the pond version of carefree enzymes and I talked to owner and he explained..EDITED VERSION: your paying for more water in the pond version the lake version is highly concentrated... think about it 160gal to 1gal (this is @ 10ml of concentrate lake will make 160 gallons where hydro stores versions will make 1 GALLON) ...WHICH DIDNT WORK 4 ME...but the carefree enzymes do...
& you basically pay the same for the gallon... in most hobbist gardens THIS WOULD LAST THEM A LIFETIME... For white clean healthy roots AND CLEAN SMART POTS...(lol even if what I'm "ORGANICLY" feeding them is causing the funk)

This was All I was trying to tell the group....
This doesnt mean I'm right or wrong...
JUST PASSING ON FREE INFO in a DIY nutrient forum...
o

organicfreak · May 29, 2011

Was going to post a link to the lake protector enzymes, but site is under construction..
Here is the sitemap
click LAKE PROTECTOR

NOT LAKE PROTECTOR CONCENTRATE...

If you search around he has all kinds of products of enzymes,but there all the same I'm guessing just different concentrate's...
I was going to use the hydro version on his site ,but when I did the math it broke down $ wise to the hydro store's version...
So I spoke with owner and HE RECOMENDED the lake protector And he gave me the starting point with .5ml/8 gal and he said you could go higher or lower based on what you were seeing like alge health of plants etc.. and to go from there..
However imho .5ml/8gal works perfect...

I feed 3 times a week 24x7=168hrs. in a week/3 feeds = 56hrs,so every 56 I feed and enzymes go in...
AND AGAIN HEALTHY WHITE ROOTS AND CLEAN SMART POTS...

organicfreak · May 31, 2011

budboy299 said:
Well here is what I worked out for Triacontanol for foliar application.

you need triacontanol 85-90% ebay has this for pretty cheap
polysorbate 20 again ebay

BUDBOY This is funny on 2 parts

1.nute companys sceams... Another example of how they take 1 ingredient and stick it into a product and we the nieve pot grower's are to think they have a GREAT PRODUCT and that all there doing is adding PK.
HAHA nope.
Just a couple cent's of PGR'S...

2. Ive been working on the same thought but many more diy pgr's...
ga3
naa
iaa
iba
6-BENZYLAMINOPURINE
BRASSINOLIDE
AND MAYBE... MEPIQUAT CHLORIDE

Here's 2 websites that I've been reading from(there from other forums/site SO IF THIS IS NOT ALLOWED PLZ REMOVE AND SORRY)

http://www.invalid.com/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/159989-hormones-pgr-s-vitimans-research.html

These 2 writers explain these pgr's usages/dosages WAY BETTER THEN I EVER COULD..

O

desertsquirrel · May 31, 2011

rather then get involved in pointing out all the problems in these cut and pastes of fat mans cut and pastes i will simply add that his micro package is deficient of 3 essential elements...

Chlorine and Nickel which arnt mentioned, and Iron which is mentioned in the source section but not the micro section...

If your really interested in this, there are vastly better sources to begin your research with.

squarepusher · May 31, 2011

I was thinking about that Roots Excellerator product, and at first I thought it was just enzymes (to make the roots white), but it appears to also stimulate root growth using biologicals ("forms a protective barrier"), and if you notice the bottle is shipped implying there is a live biological inside, and the website even says to not use with Dtuch Master Zone, because it will kill the biologicals. So what do you think could be in Roots Excellerator besides enzymes, that causes explosive root growth and is a biological (or, could it be a combination of PGR and beneficials?)

organicfreak · May 31, 2011

square
I wouldn't put it pass these rat fuck nute companies...
If it is pgr's then naa,iaa,iba would be them...

o

kuz · Jun 1, 2011

desertsquirrel said:
If your really interested in this, there are vastly better sources to begin your research with.

I take it you havent actually read through the thread? Cant blame you, its getting pretty long. Started out with f.m.'s recipe then compared it to commercial blends that growers are using.

I'm guessing chlorine and nickel are available in the other salts and dont need to be added on their own.

Fatman doubled the iron of a typical tomato recipe. I think he was about 14 ppm, if he was using edta, which I think he was. Then Crysmatic brought up something about edta chelates being toxic to plants, according to crop king, not sure we ever got to the bottom of that theory.

I use a little potassium chloride and calcium chloride, and I havent found much info on how much is too much or how compatible they are with other salts, if you have anything to add.

Crysmatic · Jun 1, 2011

essential means they'll die without it...so either they're not essential, or there's enough trace in the salts we use to satisfy the plant. either way it's a moot point. i've witnessed crazy growth with only 16 elements.

to sum it up: chelates are bad, but chelated micros aren't enough to hurt the plant. for growers who maintain their pH, chelates are redundant, and purely a marketing ploy.

farmers use chelated iron because the soil pH goes over 8.

fwiw botanicare cns17 coco bloom 2-2-3 for the first few weeks makes very healthy, stocky plants. i'll report back on a ripe formula results (the last 4 weeks).

i've noticed that my formulas can't dissolve salts in excess of ec 2.3 (in stock solution). it doesn't look nice, but you can shake it up and it'll dissolve in the res. i could make a weaker solution, and have to use more to feed...

budboy299 · Jun 1, 2011

I found that as well Crys...The Canna coco part A I use will precipitate if it gets too cool. So I just make that up at 1/2 strength and double it up when I add it to the res.

Not sure how the commercial companies keep their mixes from precipitating, some kind of thing to keep it in suspension I guess.

Oh and desertsquirrel...I checked most commercial nutes and they do not have any nickel and most contain no chlorine either. Our plants must uptake such miniscule amounts of these as to not make a huge difference if they are present or not.

desertsquirrel · Jun 1, 2011

kuz said:
I take it you havent actually read through the thread? Cant blame you, its getting pretty long. Started out with f.m.'s recipe then compared it to commercial blends that growers are using.

I'm guessing chlorine and nickel are available in the other salts and dont need to be added on their own.

Fatman doubled the iron of a typical tomato recipe. I think he was about 14 ppm, if he was using edta, which I think he was. Then Crysmatic brought up something about edta chelates being toxic to plants, according to crop king, not sure we ever got to the bottom of that theory.

I use a little potassium chloride and calcium chloride, and I havent found much info on how much is too much or how compatible they are with other salts, if you have anything to add.

Thanks for the synopsis, maybe ill search through for the comparisons. do fatmans profiles get any better? looks like cutting edge 80's nute profiles.

As for Cl, it is the most up-taken micro element... here is a general outline of ppm content in plant tissue (note that p level as well).

Crysmatic · Jun 3, 2011

i think i can safely cut my micro concentration in half. i think it'll stay dissolved at ec 2.0. AN says to shake the bottle before mixing. their scientists probably select salts which play nicely together...and cost a lot more. because diy is so cheap, adding double the solution is not a concern.

ds: plants don't follow trends or hype...what worked 10,000 years ago works today. btw, fatman's ratios date back to the '60s from solid ag studies. what ratios do you use and why?

i had a great thread about those charts last august.

CO2 and H2O supply 96% of the plant's needs! NPK supply the bulk of the remaining 4%.

nutes are way over hyped. plants grow well in a large range of nutes, there aren't many different base materials available, and hence not huge product differentiation. so how do you market nutes which are basically identical to the competition? (and at many times the cost)

a quick search came up with a paper 'Comparative chlorine requirements of different plant species' and says, "Of the species studied, lettuce was the most sensitive to "minus chlorine" culture solutions and squash, the least sensitive. However, the concentration of chlorine in all of the species cultured under limited chlorine supply was not greatly different. It is inferred that plants such as corn, beans, and squash survived the "minus chlorine" cultures by reason of greater accretion of extrinsic chlorine from the atmosphere." i'd suspect - by how well cannabis grows with RO water - that it's on the less sensitive side.

i guarantee those charts are not for cannabis. different plants selectively uptake different nutes - the reason you eat spinach for iron, and bananas for potassium. plants will also uptake elements that they don't need - like lead, cadmium, arsenic, etc. if those were on the list would you call them essential? plants don't show a deficiency with balanced 16. if it doesn't make a measurable difference why push the subject? where have you read that 0.1% chlorine helps grow pot?

organicfreak · Jun 3, 2011

hi friends
can you please help me with some math?

Im trying to make this

"Part B ‘Cycocel 750a (Chlormequat Chloride) @ 582g/L’ to make 3L Concentrate

Add 396ml Cycocel to 2.5L demineralised water
Add 30ml 8% fulvic acid

Top up to 3L final working solution

Use at 3ml/L

Purchasing Chlormequat Chloride

Chlormequat Chloride is available through agricultural suppliers.

There are several commonly available brands of Chlormequat Chloride (CC) as active products. Other than Cycocel 750A @ 582g/L CC, which is widely available through agricultural suppliers in Australia, BASF makes a product called BASF 3C Chlormequat 720 which is 720g/L active CC and another product called CeCeCe 750 which is 750g/L active CC."

now a gallon of cycocel is 300-400 $
I've been reasearching and I feel I have all the #'s just not the abilty to do the math to make my own cycocel

Per there msds sheet: 66% Chlormequat Chloride not 99% pure is used,also ther mol weight is 158.1 and the Chlormequat Chloride is 11.8% and inerts are 88.2%(thats h2o right?)
Could you plz tell me how many mg or g is needed of Chlormequat Chloride to make a gallon...

side note: I found Chlormequat Chloride99% pure and on the msds for cycocel they use 66% pure..

So I feel 1st we need to know the difference between 66% and 99% and with the mole weight, and 11.8 % of Chlormequat Chloride should help right?

thanks ALOT

o

P.s If you look next to the Chlormequat Chloride its says 582 g/l however the dickhead who sells the pure Chlormequat Chloride says thats WAY TO MUCH... he felt that it might be mg/l... He wont do the math for me cause he sells it for reasearch and he says it not reaserch with him doing the math. FUCKIN PRICK... Anyways if that is the correct # 582 g/l I'm thinking its the difference then of 66% and 99% pure

1971 · Jun 3, 2011

Crysmatic said:
a quick search came up with a paper 'Comparative chlorine requirements of different plant species' and says, "Of the species studied, lettuce was the most sensitive to "minus chlorine" culture solutions and squash, the least sensitive. However, the concentration of chlorine in all of the species cultured under limited chlorine supply was not greatly different. It is inferred that plants such as corn, beans, and squash survived the "minus chlorine" cultures by reason of greater accretion of extrinsic chlorine from the atmosphere." i'd suspect - by how well cannabis grows with RO water - that it's on the less sensitive side.

i guarantee those charts are not for cannabis. different plants selectively uptake different nutes - the reason you eat spinach for iron, and bananas for potassium. plants will also uptake elements that they don't need - like lead, cadmium, arsenic, etc. if those were on the list would you call them essential? plants don't show a deficiency with balanced 16. if it doesn't make a measurable difference why push the subject? where have you read that 0.1% chlorine helps grow pot?

i thought chlorine in really small concentrations was useful for killing pathogens, cleaning up the roots, etc.

desertsquirrel · Jun 3, 2011

Crysmatic, thank you for making my point so perfectly...

As you pointed out on 2-7-2010 these essential elements are the standard in the AG industry and taught in every Agriculture school across the country. Just because you pulled the numbers from Urban Gardner (is that a good read?) doesn't mean that that article was a fad.

Crysmatic said:
This chart summarizes elemental composition in plants of dry matter by weight. From 'Urban Garden' mag, jan/feb 2010, p.62.

Carbon - 45%
Oxygen - 45%
Hydrogen - 6%

i.e., ALMOST ALL the tissue is made up of Carbon Dioxide. Only about 4% comes from nutrients. In view of this, fertilizers are nearly insignificant compared to environment. Food for thought.

Macro nutrients (%)
Nitrogen - 1.5
Potassium - 1.0
Calcium - 0.5
Magnesium - 0.2
Phosphorus - 0.2
Sulfur - 0.1
Silicon - 0.1

Micro nutrients (ppm)
Chlorine - 100
Iron - 100
Boron - 20
Manganese - 50
Sodium - 10
Zinc - 20
Copper - 6
Nickel - 0.1
Molybdenum - 0.1

Furthermore, as you learned from Blaze, that same day, the law of the minimum is an expression of why they are essential.

Blaze said:
Just because they are needed in smaller amounts does not mean they are insignificant - quite the opposite actually. If any of the 17 essential elements are not present in high a enough concentration the growth of the plant will be inhibited. This is sometimes referred to as the Rule of the Minimum.

The reason this is the case is because most micro elements act very differently inside the plant then macro elements. O, H, C, N, K, Ca etc are synthesized into plant tissue, they actually become the plant tissue itself. Most micros on the other hand are recycled throughout the plant and used to synthesize the previously mentioned tissue. So while very little of them is needed to be up-taken, they are constantly being relayed upon for synthesis of ALL tissue. The idea that it makes up .1% of the plant and is therefor not essential is totally misguided.

Im also glad you brought up profiles, because that is the necessary starting point for any person who is looking to make their own nutrient package. Frankly its the basis for anyone trying to use any nutrients at all.

If you are new to profiles i recommend you start here with shroomdr’s work.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=177807

Some of my profile work is here:

Spurr also does great work, here is a copy of his profile along with lucas.

Note fatmans numbers:

squarepusher said:
Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, Mg=100, Calcium=166

Mixing nutrients without an understanding of proper nutritional profiles or the basics of plant nutrition seems rather far fetched. And the attitude that thats ok, its not an issue to worry about seems counterproductive.

desertsquirrel · Jun 3, 2011

Crysmatic said:
nutes are way over hyped. plants grow well in a large range of nutes, there aren't many different base materials available, and hence not huge product differentiation.

Really? This list bearly scratches the surface for Micros. Macros have much more.

organicfreak · Jun 4, 2011

hey friends
just bought that book by integral hydroponics lol only 24$ good read, but I bought it for this recipe

botrytis recipe
250 g/l potasium benzoate
5 g/l borax

He recomends spraying 1 wk during flowering to prevent BUD ROT

also citric acid mono hydrate as a ph down organic

also potasium bicarbonate as a ph up organic

o

Crysmatic · Jun 4, 2011

wow. I've NEVER said that you can omit micros and grow anything. liebig's law blah blah blah. I say that by relative importance, environment should take about 96% of your operating expenses and efforts, and nutes about 4%. and yes, DON'T WORRY :)

second, if a plant can grow well without it, it's NOT essential - or it's already getting it from somewhere. the quote i found also says that chlorine is absorbed from the environment, and some plants aren't sensitive to its absence. res disinfection notwithstanding, you don't need to add it. if you want to go ahead. are you saying an individual underground grower, despite awesome forums like this, are going to turn the AG INDUSTRY on its head? ragamuffin don be silly.

yes, i'm aware that there are MILLIONS of chemicals possible. if you look at a few labels, there are only a HANDFUL that are used. i don't need more than a few salts to mix up most formulas. are you aware that labels omit chems, or list strange salt combinations to confuse any would be copier? daniel pointed that out to me. i'm not an expert, and i can make formulas that work as well as anything. my results tell me that i'm not far fetched.

are you still using cns17 and h&g, along with other additives? i've been copying nutes for almost a year, and designing and tweaking my OWN formulas for six months. two bottles, A and B...that's it. all the ratios are fixed, and i have a formula that stands on its own. i've proven to myself that you don't need 12 bottles to grow killer weed. let me know when you start mixing your own formulas.

ask ten different master growers what nutes they use, and you'll get ten very different answers. it's typical newb thinking that there's ONE perfect formula, and that ONE product will solve all of their problems (that includes ANY area of mastery). plants can grow well in a wide range of ratios and the 'different' ratios are superficial and pure marketing.

radio silence. peace

1971 · Jun 4, 2011

well put Chrysmatic!

desertsquirrel · Jun 4, 2011

As much as i hate to do this (i have never said this about anyones harvest in my life) I find your callous attitude toward plant nutrition in general, and more specifically the way it might effect others peoples medication totally offensive.

You are the one telling people to spend the time, money, energy, grow space, etc making their own fertilizers and advising against the most commonly accepted standards in agriculture. I simply and plainly pointed that out. Im not sure what about that is difficult for you to grasp.

People who need medicine, some of whom cannot afford it without there own grow, come to these forums so they can learn how to alleviate, (some times life threatening,) illness. Plant nutrition matters. It effects peoples lives every day. “Don't worry about it” isn't only irresponsible and embarrassing but frankly its unethical when your are responsible for hundreds of patients medication.

You and the 7 plants in your back yard might be underground, but some of us meet with the Internal Revenue Service: Medical Marijuana Enforcement Devision, are licensed and inspected, and take our responsibly of providing medicine for the sick and suffering extremely seriously.

I think its fantastic that your making and using your own nutrients. I just want other people to see the “results” that they can expect from following your advice. I am not sure what you grow crysmatic, but i haven't seen you post a single pic of medicine.

Im frankly offended that you smoked what is in your pictures.

Results:

(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

Crysmatic

organicfreak

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organicfreak

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organicfreak

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desertsquirrel

squarepusher

organicfreak

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kuz

Crysmatic

budboy299

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Crysmatic

organicfreak

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1971

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organicfreak

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Crysmatic

1971

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(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

Crysmatic

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organicfreak

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desertsquirrel

squarepusher

organicfreak

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kuz

Crysmatic

budboy299

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Crysmatic

organicfreak

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1971

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