(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

[Seamaiden]

yes coco is hydro, you need to add a bit more cal+mag i think though

I've had discussions with others who would debate that with you (the hydro bit, not the Ca/Mg bit). I just need to be certain that in this instance Crysmatic and I are on the same wavelength.

jk posted a link in his nute thread: http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_hydroponics3.htm "Plants have evolved to tolerate large nutrient imbalances in the root-zone." could it mean that anything from fatman's 2.8-1-4.4 to maplereef's 1.7-10-5.1, and anything in between work? if you change the res weekly, or run dtw, then you provide enough elements to prevent deficiency, and not allow elements to build up and cause toxicity.

Hydroponics (From the Greek words hydro, water and ponos, labor) is a method of growing plants using mineral nutrient solutions, in water, without soil - wiki. the key word is 'mineral' - medium isn't relevant. any time you rely on microbes breaking elements down to make them available to the plant, you're drifting into geoponics - geo = soil.

Aha! A way to make the distinction, thank you!

seamaiden. i 100% agree that plants make aminos. my argument is that they manufacture them, not consume them. any benefit seems to result from soil health and their chelation factor in geoponics. running pk and aminos simultaneously won't tell you which component is responsible for the growth. run your own test. make your own 0-1-3 without aminos, and use aminos without the pk, and see which gives better results. you may find that aminos potentiate the pk (work better together than each running alone).

I am nowhere near your or budboy's or JK's level of expertise with playing around with nutrients. What I can say is this--I've used P/K boosters, such as Liquid Koolbloom, and the results were nothing like what I see with this.

IF aminos potentiate, as you suggest may be a possibility, then that's something worth some consideration. Now that I've gotten another harvest under my belt (chopped all my Kush and White girls two days ago) and I have some Big Up with which to experiment, as well as some MAP & MKP, next run (I'm thinking Blockhead) I shall divide up the tables and give this a go again--will the Big Bud's aminos be the difference, or something else? Curiosity makes life interesting.

More for perusal on that subject: http://www.springerlink.com/content/puq36726t125760k/

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h6254h6577331768/

having a reactive medium means you have less control of which nutrients are available to the plant. it seems soil and soilless media can't tolerate as high P as pure hydro. then again, it might just be that the range is so large, that nute companies arbitrarily change up the ratios (while staying within the range) to convince you to buy more product. it seems fairly lucrative to have a hydro formula, coco formula, and soilless formula; plus three kinds of bene's, four kinds of bloom boosters, rooter, enzymes, cleaner, extra micros/kelp.

I'll agree with that, definitely true with coco if not, so far as I'm finding, not true with a medium such as perlite.

Something more to read that helps explain what's up with coco, and a whole lot more, perhaps may round out or simplify what's held within that excellent site JK linked to elsewhere and you've re-posted:

fyi, big bud 0-1-3 is:
4.4g potassium phosphate
9.5g potassium sulphate
per L of solution. this is less than $0.20 worth of salts! one $6 500g tub of potassium sulphate will make 52L of big bud...over $2,000 retail. AN brags about ROI with their products. lmfao

generic 0-2-4 (0-9-18 uses 4.5x the quantity)
8.3g potassium phosphate
11g potassium sulphate

That's the liquid, I don't use the liquid, I use the powdered. Powdered is something like 0-15-40 + a huge list of those aminos we've been batting back and forth. ;)

 

[budboy299]

crysmatic...I read an article quite some time ago about clearing agents. I totally forget the techical terms at the moment but here is the laymans idea of how it works:

The simple sugars in the formula are incomplete something or others (damn memory) and when they come in contact with the fertilizer salts, the salts adhere to them to complete the molecule. That is why it is able to pull or leach the salts from the medium. Also the reason why you need to flood till lots of runoff....so the sugar water can attach to the salts and run off.

 

[budboy299]

oh and I will get the weights off the H&G label once my lights come back on in my bloom room.
and don't feel bad about your 1lb of ammonium nitrate...I've got a 50lb bag sitting here. Stuff was only 20 bucks so what the hell!

 

[budboy299]

aqua flakes "A" only says 5L is 1.3Gallons/5.5kg/12.13lbs

aqua flakes "B" says 5L is 1.3Gallons/5.75kg/12.67lbs

 

[Crysmatic]

I am nowhere near your or budboy's or JK's level of expertise with playing around with nutrients.

i'm no expert. i read the newspapers, then repeat what i read as if they were my own opinions. i can interpret data well.

What I can say is this--I've used P/K boosters, such as Liquid Koolbloom, and the results were nothing like what I see with this.

koolbloom is 0-10-10, or 0-X-X. liquid big bud is 0-X-3X. powdered big bud is 0-X-2.7X. big up is basically 5/8 strength MKP. it has even more P than Koolbloom. imo, i wouldn't bother with it. it's not just the bloom booster ratio, but the base nutrient, and how they work together. what are you using as a base?

IF aminos potentiate, as you suggest may be a possibility, then that's something worth some consideration. I have some Big Up with which to experiment, as well as some MAP & MKP, next run I shall divide up the tables and give this a go again--will the Big Bud's aminos be the difference, or something else? Curiosity makes life interesting.

consistent performance is a prerequisite before running a/b tests. compare big bud, and the 0-1-3 recipe. i strongly suggest inert media and hydro so that you have tight control of nutrient levels. my feeling is you'll get lots of sweet bud, with no significant difference.

you'll learn much more by testing npk ratios. to establish ideal pk ratio, run 1-1-2 (AN), 1-1-2.5 (botanicare) and 1-1-3 (n is arbitrarily fixed at 1). take the best performer from that group, and vary the n from 1 (botanicare), 1.25 (AN) and 1.5. in a few runs you'll zero in on an optimal npk ratio.

 

[Crysmatic]

aqua flakes "A" only says 5L is 1.3Gallons/5.5kg/12.13lbs

aqua flakes "B" says 5L is 1.3Gallons/5.75kg/12.67lbs

thanks budboy. that's exactly what i meant. the 'true' ppm is 144-48-260-44Mg. that's 2.6-1-5.7-0.8 npk. that's not too far off fatman's 2.8-1-4.4!

you can input commercial fert guaranteed analysis into hydro buddy and it directly spits out a recipe. i'm still learning this function.

daniel says "The labels of companies are often very misleading since they can list any possible salt combinations to arrive to the ions they have in solution as the sources. So possibly this is just a strategy to confuse people so that reproducing their formulations becomes harder. If you don't know that you should use KNO3 instead of HNO3+KOH you would be making the solution in a much more expensive and dangerous way (since both of these substances are corrosive)"

 

[budboy299]

Great stuff Crysmatic....new info for the masses everyday! Looking forward to running the diy fert mixtures in my coco set-up -BB

 

[Crysmatic]

it seems AN put more salts than can dissolve...they say 'Shake well to take full advantage of this product and put it to work for you.' their ingredient lists are shady - they mix salts that shouldn't mix, and their guaranteed analysis doesn't match up. e.g. they list magnesium sulfate in sensi bloom A, but no magnesium %...

the old sensi grow was close to 3-1-2, and it's changed to 3-2-6 (1.5-1-3). the old sensi bloom was 5.8-5.7-8.8 (1-1-1.5) and the new sensi is 4-8-8...virtually the same as floranova bloom...which is lucas.

connie has added big bud 5-4-10-2.9-0.7, which now makes it very close to botanicare power flower 2-2-5. another big change is that they use a LOT less ammonia and urea. this makes it more suitable for hydro.

they've been working hard researching their competitor's guaranteed analyses ;)

 

[Crysmatic]

pure salts

my tip for the day: READ labels! i have been using greenhouse grade calcium nitrate, which also contains ammonia:headbang DNF's potassium nitrate is 95.6%, potassium phosphate is 88.4%. needless to say, my own bottles don't contain what i thought they contained, plus some floaties that i don't even know about. the recipes are still valid if you buy pure salts (not dnf).

pure salts have the following npk:
calcium nitrate 11.8-0-0
potassium nitrate 13-0-44
potassium phosphate 0-52-34
magnesium sulfate heptahydrate is 9.86% Mg by weight

 

[budboy299]

another of AN's wonderfully creative spins...hammerhead PK 9/18 suddenly became Hammerhead PK4/8. This was spun by AN as simply a label change. Oddly enough this formula of AN was the greatest thing under the sun and contained only 3 ingredients (water, Monopotassium phosphate, and sulfate of potash. According to AN, everyone else got it wrong and this was the correct ratio.
Suddenly now Hammerhead (according to their own website) is PK 4/10
it also suddenly has 2% nitrogen in it as well.

the NPK is 2-4-10 with 1.9% sulfur, and ingredients are Monopotassium phosphate, potassium nitrate, potassium sulphate and the other main ingredient which is 95% of the formula, water!
the mixing instructions are .5ml/litre

Very odd that when it was PK9/18 the mixing rate was 1-2ml/litre, and now it is .5ml/litre

Seems very shady to me!!

 

[budboy299]

Just to clarify before AN supporters attack....

on their website it says "Hammerhead is a concentrated liquid fertilizer supplement. The basic application rate for Hammerhead is 0.5 ml per litre of water.

of course just after their guaranteed analysis list it says:

+ DIRECTIONS: Add Hammerhead to your reservoir at a rate of 1-2 ml per Litre (0.75 - 1.5 tsp per gallon).

at least they are clear on how to use it! hahahaha ;)

 

[REGISTRD]

^^^^ So Crysmatic ur saying YOU didnt read the label correctly? I been wondering this myself lurking this thread for months..Do the labels have percentages on the bags of say calcium nitrate.. or do you really have to look at the derivitives (NPK) to figure it out? ya its prob a stupid question but forgive me for Ive been given all the powders in baggies and a program but I really wanna put it into my own program so Im trying to understand it all..
I know better fertilizers have higher purity levels so is this a pure example here that youve come to realize??
I got all the powders and a calculator from a trusted source I just need to really sit down and try to understand it In my terms.

 

[Crysmatic]

^^^^ So Crysmatic ur saying YOU didnt read the label correctly? I been wondering this myself lurking this thread for months..Do the labels have percentages on the bags of say calcium nitrate.. or do you really have to look at the derivitives (NPK) to figure it out? ya its prob a stupid question but forgive me for Ive been given all the powders in baggies and a program but I really wanna put it into my own program so Im trying to understand it all..
I know better fertilizers have higher purity levels so is this a pure example here that youve come to realize??
I got all the powders and a calculator from a trusted source I just need to really sit down and try to understand it In my terms.

yes. i'm saying I didn't read the DNF six pack labels. however, yara calcium nitrate, haifa salts, et al. ARE 100% pure. i just bought lesser products, and didn't account for it. the fertilizer I'VE been giving MY plants isn't to the recipe i gave (how ironic).

i've listed some pure NPK ratios for the main macros. just compare it to the NPK ratio on your bags of salts. hydro buddy assumes 100% purity - and so does the recipe.

the good news is, i haven't wasted $40 on my nutes, which are perfectly fine for general use...still better than any random fert at walmart.

more good news: hydro buddy is being revised to fix issues resolving for nitrate, ammonium, and nitric acid :) much thanks to daniel fernandez for the fixes, and clarification on mixing instructions.

 

[REGISTRD]

fyi, big bud 0-1-3 is:
4.4g potassium phosphate
9.5g potassium sulphate
per L of solution. this is less than $0.20 worth of salts! one $6 500g tub of potassium sulphate will make 52L of big bud...over $2,000 retail. AN brags about ROI with their products. lmfao

generic 0-2-4 (0-9-18 uses 4.5x the quantity)
8.3g potassium phosphate
11g potassium sulphate

First off Thnks everyone for putting all your hard work into this thread! I finally sat down and read it all and feal i have a understanding of it all for the most part.
I need to re read the blogs and read the ebook.. Does anyone have a way to open the calc on a MAC?

Ive been running the PH spreadsheet with my nute formula trying to see where my plants like there NPK. I run Super nutes..Ive experimented with a few solutions and levels and am just shocked to see how high some of K levels are here.. THe N and P seem reasonable to me but dam running over 300ppm of K seems excessive...

Crysmatic i may have overlooked it but what NPK ppm values are you running? Forgive me im only half way there I kind of understand ratios but not really..I know its just division lol but dam i jsut dont get it.. I understand ppms though lol.. Give me a couple weeks though i think ill be 100%
Also this formula u posted here about BIG BUD..
If i understand this your telling us we can make a GAllon of Big Bud ( u posted LIter) we would take
4.4g x 3.78 =16.63gms of potassium phosphate
9.5g x 3.78= 35.91gms of potassium sulphate
?????
Also what brands of ferts do you like better? The crop king stuff or the DNF im not sure i understand that post...

 

[Seamaiden]

I don't know enough about running Macs to say for sure, but I believe there is a crossover program to run Windows proggies on a Mac platform. I couldn't tell you what it is, though.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

You can get some hard to find salts reagent grade at lab supply houses. I sometimes pay up to 20 a lb mostly around 6-9 bucks. I use this grade for most of my foliar sprays. JK

I was given a bunch of valagros products. I like the megafol. Did not see any results with the Benefit. I will run some more batches of their Radifarm. Had one plant blow up in veg with it.

 

[REGISTRD]

You can get some hard to find salts reagent grade at lab supply houses. I sometimes pay up to 20 a lb mostly around 6-9 bucks. I use this grade for most of my foliar sprays. JK

I was given a bunch of valagros products. I like the megafol. Did not see any results with the Benefit. I will run some more batches of their Radifarm. Had one plant blow up in veg with it.

I was given all the Haifa salts.. From my knoweldge you gotta have a com license to get em.. Im running our own personal spreedsheet that was made from a trusted source in the ag industry.. All your knowledge JK is greatly appreciated..
Im going to set up a test run with some Sour aliens in Hugo cubes to get my feet wet and well go from there!
Itll be top drip/recirc.. prob stick with my same elementals and pray I dont burn them lol....

 

[MeJuana]

There is no way to separate Say Calcium Nitrate to take out the Nitrogen, no?

 

[budboy299]

not that I am aware of MeJuana. Lots of things have calcium in it but they don't disolve and usually just sit in a solid form in the mixture. Like gypsum is calcium sulphate. Won't disolve.

 

[Crysmatic]

Crysmatic i may have overlooked it but what NPK ppm values are you running?
Also this formula u posted here about BIG BUD..
If i understand this your telling us we can make a GAllon of Big Bud ( u posted LIter) we would take
4.4g x 3.78 =16.63gms of potassium phosphate
9.5g x 3.78= 35.91gms of potassium sulphate
?????
Also what brands of ferts do you like better? The crop king stuff or the DNF im not sure i understand that post...

my npk was ~3-1-4 in veg (i was still learning to mix my own). ~5-4-10 atm (old connie plus big bud, or new connie). next week will be 5.5-6.5-13.3 (connie plus overdrive). my calcium and magnesium are a little higher. this is my first time running my own nutes, and my first time running 'connie'.

i guess it's not 'big bud' unless it has vitamins and aminos. however, plants will get the same minerals as big bud, and i suggest eating the vitamins and aminos yourself :) budboy beat me to the formula by 3 months.

crop king just distributes other people's salts. i've heard that haifa has some of the purest salts. dnf, not so much. the purer the better. for me, local, and cheap is good too. importing potassium nitrate over the border isn't smart.