Capulator said:

Right we can all talk shit but the thing is that MJ is a schedule 1 and is FEDERALLY illegal. Richard Lee is a big time activist. He is/was behind prop 18, oaksterdam, and harborside. Also the marijuana factories. Giving licenses to grow in 100,000 square feet of warehouse space to 4 people. Give me a fuckin' break.Like that shit isn't politics at its best. Do you think that if people were operating as the law intended that there would be these huge ass busts... probably not. Then it would be a waste. BUT, when you are making lots of money, and start getting lots of assets from it, then, well, you become a target. Even with our own gov. as fucked as it is, I still love my country and would rather be here than many other places in the world.

When you look at the busts that have happened recently, they have been MAJOR ones (4000 plants +), they have been cartels (which they cant even keep up with), they have been incited by local law (local law calling the feds in), or in some cases a concerned crictized calling out the DEA to raid a neighbor.

This is like me telling my kid that I will turn a blind eye to him getting a cookie out of the cookie jar, and I turn around and the kid takes all the cookies, and replaces them by taking a shit in the jar.

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I honestly didn't know all of this right here...

not all the crap another member is pulling out of his ass.

good post cap, open my eyes there.

I think squiggly is spot on with the politics of this whole thing, I'm not ganna go into race that's dumb

It's an election year so Obama can't speak out in favor of medical marijuana right now, that's essentially asking to loose, and then Romney will be president and I garuntee that any republican president will be worse for medical rights, hands down they are always the ones in favor of the war on drugs bs

I also think cap is right on saying that its hard not to expect the DEA to do something about 100000 sq ft warehouses, that's pushing it for sure. But it is a waste of time and resources they could be focusing on other drugs such as meth coke heroin and drugs that are distributed by gangs and Mexican cartels, going after medical stuff is stupid even if it pushes the law there's just soo many better things they can do with their time and tax payers money

States need to stand up and tell the DEA to back off and if they're really committed to it the states could take the federal gov to court for infringing on states rights

Itll be a long time before the federal gov changes its position on medical marijuana, a lot more states will have to allow it and start standing up for it

Junkbarman I don't think he actually called you a racist. I think many that read post #14 understands he is implying that it makes us all look bad when you blame things on somebody that are not true. That if a person is going to do that they should at least have all their facts straight.

I am 56 and never voted in my life until Obama was running. The reason I never voted was because I didn't trust or like any candidate in my lifetime. They never do what they say. Sometimes because they just lied or said what we wanted to hear to get elected and many times because our system, as good as it seems, is flawed. All the checks and balances to seemingly protect us actually prevents very much from getting done. The only stuff that does get done is through deals and lobbyists. Like to protect clean water you have to to vote to let them drill oil in Central park type dumb deals.

The only reason I came out of the woodwork and voted for Obama was to just get somebody different. I voted for him because he was black. I wanted the cookie cutter good old white boy rich kid network closed down for a term.

I am not a republican or a democrat. They all are crooks. Most are in politics to make money. They are not in it to change the world.

All the anti Obama/democrat people are infuriating me though. As soon as Obama was elected they started their one term president chant. They blocked him at every turn.

The republicans forget they lost the election because they messed stuff up over 8 years. All the republican scandals before the election really ruined them. The criminal arrests, the infidelity with their wives and the guy looking under bathroom stalls to see another guy's penis. It's a joke. These are our leaders. LOL!

Obama isn't to blame for what happened at Oaksterdam. Medical marijuana is to blame. And NORMAL is to blame for that. Back in the 70's when the new guy took over he said recreational use would not get through. He said if we get it accepted medically for a few years then it could become accepted for recreational use. That was the plan.

Normal was only in existence for a few years. For easy math I will say 5. So they failed to get recreational use after 5 years and they gave up and switched their approach. But they didn't get medical use for like 35 years and just kept trying. It was a bad idea. Morphine is medically legal. Can you use it when you want? Can you just go buy it? No you need a doctor and a pharmacist. Digitalis comes from a plant and is medically legal. Can you go buy it? No. So how in the hell did anybody think medical marijuana was going to be easy?

It just made it regulated and scrutinized. Now the doctors and dispensaries are the ones making all the money. Yes people can go buy it but it is a mess.

It is also the dispensaries fault. I wonder how many of them have been in NORMAL the past 35 years and orchestrated this all along so they would be the ones making all the money and the recreational pot smoker would have to pretend they needed it medically and pay twice as much.

RECREATIONAL WEED OR REVOLUTION!!!

I didn't even say the word racist--and I don't remember insinuating that anyone was a racist.

I did make a comment about "the black guy" but to me that was more a colloquialism. I grew up in a mainly black area and I generally think of black dudes as black dudes. I didn't meant to imply that people were specifically blaming him because of his race--there didn't appear to be any evidence of that here and if I had done so I absolutely would've been out of line. The sentence reads just as well as it was meant to if you say instead "the guy you don't like". It was my mistake in being too specific there--and I see where the misunderstanding comes from with regard to that.

It was a misunderstanding, though.

As for being a respected forum member--I'm not sure that's really the case. I haven't been around all that long and while I try to be thoughtful and helpful in my replies, I imagine that I've made just as many enemies as friends during my time here.

Being a blunt sonofabitch will do that for you :)

kushtrees said:

It's an election year so Obama can't speak out in favor of medical marijuana right now, that's essentially asking to loose, and then Romney will be president and I garuntee that any republican president will be worse for medical rights, hands down they are always the ones in favor of the war on drugs bs

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Exactly.

He made a mistake by re-nominating Leonhart, and I imagine its a mistake Obama will not repeat if re-elected (I'm not certain if he gets to nominate all new people, but I believe he does).

If the GOP takes it you can bet she'll be reconfirmed--or someone just like her or worse will take her place. Likewise, the justice department will shift its focus back to upholding federal law despite state law. If you think the raids are bad now, wait till Romney 2014 and talk to me.

I understand voting republican as far as it goes to many issues--but when it comes to this particular issue, a vote for a republican is a vote cast against your beliefs.

Now let me be clear and say that legalization and de-regulation is a very conservative idea, and that most average american republicans support legalization and taxation (and not just medical). So I'm not talking about the party as a whole, but instead its leadership.

Please keep in mind that republicans are in bed with the pharmaceutical industry BIG TIME, and that interest has every interest in the world in keeping MJ illegal. You can't patent a plant--and this plant treats a huge amount of ailments for which synthetic drugs already exist.

Nothing in this thread even makes sense anymore, all I know he was using race to make a statement directed at me. Call it what you like, but it's BS.

Guess we have the ignore button for a reason.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, do you guys really think Obama has no power to change the head of the DEA, AG, and so on?

So you're saying that you'll keep voting for this guy and he's going to keep nominating people that are going to do things like this?

I don't agree, not at all.

Show me where I'm making statements where I have no clue of what I'm talking about, please show me.

It's amazing to me what people accept to be the norm when it come to their political leaders and the laws they try to impose upon us.

Obama can't speak about medical marijuana, my ass. It's an issue and he needs to address it.

Luckily Rich Lee has made a small fortune with his medical cannabusinesses and should have all the necessary resources and support to fight this battle. We're lucky that the feds aren't rounding up unknown patients and caregivers, who don't have anywhere near the resources to take on the feds. I might not like or agree with Rich Lee's view on industrialized cannabis production and distribution but my thoughts go out to him as he begins one of the toughest fights of his life.... long live the will the of people

Junkbarman said:

Obama can't speak about medical marijuana, my ass. It's an issue and he needs to address it.

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^^^ That^^^
I agree with

Why can't Obama explain himself?
He said he would respect state laws...He lied. :mad:

This WAS a good thread. :confused:

I'm not necessarily arguing that Obama has been a champion for the scene.

I'm saying you're essentially calling to vote someone in who would be FAR WORSE for this cause. I just explained to you that any mention of race was inadvertent and wasn't really intended to be directed at anyone--I was speaking in generalities.

You can continue being offended where no offense was intended, but that doesn't really serve to move any kind of meaningful conversation along. I corrected my meaning--apologized for any problems the error may have caused, and now we should move on.

I also didn't say you didn't know what you're talking about.

I'm not going to sit here all day and walk you through the days of reading and research I've spent on this topic. I'm trying to have a discussion which should consist of:

1. Me making a good point with reasonable logic behind it which observes the REALITY of our system of government vs. some fantasy land where the president is the end-all-be-all of all decision making processes.

2. You making a counterpoint which uses the same type of logic, citing some kind of reality based assessment on the situation.

Instead it's gone like this:

1. Above.

2. You not really addressing any of what I said except to say , "nuh uh!" and, "I don't believe that because, he's the PRESIDENT!"

I understand you felt offended, please believe that was not my intent and I don't think anyone here is a racist. Believe me that I know what racism is and when I see it--and I haven't seen ANY in this thread or even really on this board (with a few exceptions).

Let's put that behind us and talk about the real issue, which is:

Obama is not to blame for everything.

Politics is ugly. You can want a perfect president all you want, but if you hold your breath waiting for one I'd expect to find you dead later.

Sad to say, but when it comes to issues LIKE THIS ONE--a political hot-button issue which has ended more than a few political careers--you are not voting for a champion, or you shouldn't be. You aren't going to get one. What you'll get instead is the better of the two--hopefully.

No matter how you flip the coin, or how pissed off you are at Obama for not being more willing to commit political suicide for weed, any of the remaining republican candidates will be orders of magnitude worse on this issue.

That isn't a guess, it's not an opinion. It's a fact, all to be damned.

I hope I don't get the opportunity in a few years time to prove you wrong if a GOP candidate is elected, but rest assured that should one be elected--there is no question that such an opportunity will glaringly and with great conspicuousness present itself in due course.

It's always baffled me how the GOP has convinced even a single low-income family to vote for them (and in fact, millions do), but on this issue it's downright head-exploding. It is so painfully obvious which party has a greater interest in legalization.

I'm not surprised to find decriers of Obama defensive and unwilling to engage in logical debate, I must say. This has been the norm since 2008--and some things never change.

I suppose I'd be equally stupid to not accept that reality. It's important to understand limitations, and one of the most frustrating ones for me to cope with is my inability to make everyone see the obvious truth, or at least to use the same unifying logic to make decisions about things of this nature.

I don't have all of the answers and I've never claimed to, but it is assured that I'll end up with more of them than the next guy if the next guy insists upon going with his gut rather than with his mind.

Same thing I've been saying for ages. Everyone wants to know what's best these days, politicians included (both sides). Instead of working together and using each others' understanding as a tool--we instead see other perspectives as challenges to be overcome, as attacks on our pride because we should be able to figure it all out on our own right?

Repubs think they know how to fix the country.

So do Dems.

They differ so much that someone has to be wrong by that logic. I argue that its both of them, and all of us--for pride's sake. Simply to be right about something, even if it's only in our own minds.

The ego really is a damaging thing, and the worst part of it is that its not even you!! Most people's ego's are driving their respective cars now, and it's going to be the death of our society--fuck politics, this kind of thing ruins basic human interactions and cooperation.

caregiverken said:

^^^ That^^^
I agree with

Why can't Obama explain himself?
He said he would respect state laws...He lied. :mad:

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No, he directed the justice department to do exactly that. The statement is there for you to read--it happened in 2009.

Leonhart defied those orders and essentially dared congress to stop her--which they haven't.

It's my opinion that SHE lied to Obama. The arc of development on this issue simply doesn't make sense if that isn't the case. The only thing Obama could've gained by releasing a statement like he did, and having one of his nominees defy him--is to disenfranchise you as voters (those of you who are upset) and perhaps lose a few more percentage points for his perceived failure of character judgement.

What I'm saying is this has been an absolute trainwreck for him, and blaming it on him isn't going to take responsibility away from where it lies for these raids (the topic of this post)--it lies on Leonhart's shoulders and nowhere else.

If you guys are such experts in law and government administration, please explain to me what provision would allow Obama to circumvent Leonhart's ability to run the DEA as she sees fit? What law says he can fire her, or compel her to act in one way or another. In fact, he made himself look pretty stupid by acting like he could do that with his directive to the DOJ through Holder--she came out less than a few hours later and basically told him, "Read the law, Mr. Obama, I don't have to listen to you--and I won't"

In reality, that is probably one of the reasons she was confirmed. Something else you guys may have left out of your assumptions is that congress must confirm any nominee--not only did this chick get the absolute up vote from essentially every republican, but it's also worth noting that the GOP would've unilaterally opposed any nominee who was perceived as too progressive or liberal. In that case, Leonhart would've stayed on as acting director till an appointee could be agreed upon. Republicans are, and will have been then, the obstacle to getting any lenient appointees through the confirmation process. The GOP's record is VERY VERY clear here, and has been unwavering since the '30s essentially.

I digress, either you must be able to explain what Obama's options are to stop this which he hasn't undertaken yet, or you must believe the narrative that Obama knowingly put egg on his face, simply so that he could continue to attack MMJ and appear not to be complicit with it.

The first, you can't do--because there exists no such provision. Sure he could speak out, loudly, about this--and I think you MAY see that happen if he's re-elected and not concerned with his ability to retain the presidency. You are playing into anti-MMJ believers hands by throwing him under the bus for not tanking his next term simply so he can have his 15 minutes of fame on THCFarmer.

The second, makes no sense at all. If Obama was going to do some secretive conspiracy-esque type stuff I doubt it would've been over pot--just sayin.

Realistically those are the only two ways out of the debate, though.

Well either those, or think about it for a second beyond the idea that you don't like the guy (which is totally fine, you don't have to like him--but you should use sense when making arguments like this).

As a for instance:

Remember when the towers came down and everyone blamed Bush and said his administration planned it and it was a controlled-det and that it was some conspiracy?

I really disliked Bush, but that was about the dumbest thing I'd ever heard--and in fact I was pretty pissed that someone would throw the president, no matter who that is, under the bus like that. Absolutely no honor or pride for their country.

This, although waaaaay less hot-button, is about as intelligent of an argument.

You have no proof to the positive, and literally pages and pages (as well as video clips, sound bytes, etc) of proof to the negative. The fact that some of you have chosen not to discover those pieces of information for yourselves is absolutely moot--things are the way they are, and they don't change simply because you don't know everything about them (and nor do I).

This is gunna suck bad 4 everybody needing some clones 2 run outside this season.. I know this place made lots of cuts.. Looks like there will b less clones 2 pick from this year..

i for one voted for obama. i always thought he is genuine. the guy grew up in a family with no father. smoked pot did drugs. somehow turned his life around and got into harvard. became an oustanding student. went to chicago helped the homeless as an organizer. the guy has put in the hours to help people. thats what i liked about him. he wasnt born with a silver spoon in his mouth. he lived a long time with his grandparents. this is a guy i can relate too. still i think its time that he made a statement on what is happening with the DEA, FEDS and now the IRS with their tax book.

As for republicans, wow they will rob this country like they have been for 30 years if they get the chance to control the presidency. biggest bunch of liars, thieves and snakes. makes meth dealers look like little kids. I've worked at lots of jobs where these poor stupid low income people all voted republican. i often wondered why all these people thought so highly of the republican party. i found out that they all "want to believe they belong to a better, richer class of society" and by voting republican they tried and make that fairy tale true. like lemmings going over the cliff! Wake up people!

im an independent by the way. i dont like either side. politics is a thieving murderours group.

Squiggly and dirk d are on point

I really hope Obama makes a statement about medical marijuana he absolutely should, but to do so before the election would be political suicide and the GOP would love him for it.

As far as wat dirk d said about the GOP... Absolutely right, they love lobbiest and some how lower income people are convinced to vote for them it's insane.

What needs to happen is Obama needs to win the election, state his position on MMJ, and (if he even gets to) kick the head of the DEA out and get someone new in, even though wih a republican house who knows who will be appointed, hopefully better then the current sob

Squiggly, I want to thank you for the education you've provided about this issue, and for the insight about just how screwed up our miserable excuse for a federal government actually is.

I have found in my discussions with people that those who vote republican tend either to be very wealthy and are voting their pocketbook, or very misinformed about what the republican party stands for. That latter group is far larger than the first, and as long as Fox News is out there with its right wing slant on everything up to and including the sun rising, the threat of the ill-informed will continue to be a real one.

The bottom line is that most americans do NOT take the time to inform themselves about the actual process of governance in this country, and that's a luxury we can no longer afford.

ttystikk said:

The bottom line is that most americans do NOT take the time to inform themselves about the actual process of governance in this country, and that's a luxury we can no longer afford.

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Took the words right out of my mouth.

No doubt those who are so afflicted with a lack of information will be offended and thusly become very defensive--saying things like, "how dare you imply that I don't know what's going on."

This tends to be the case. Being right, or perceiving onesself as right as FAR more important to a human psyche than actually having the correct answer beyond a reasonable doubt such that no argument can stand against the truth.

We, as people, have to choose whether to accept that we are limited in our ability to make decisions or not. To make a correct decision you need all the right information. It's about time we, and our leaders, started realizing that there is TOO MUCH INFORMATION out there for one person, or even a group of 500ish people (congress) to fully understand and encompass all of that.

No side knows what to do with the economy--it is much too large and complex for anyone to pin it down, and yet you see cries of foul from both sides when the truth is neither of them could be more confused about the right thing to do--the same holds true for the experts advising them, and any of them with any kind of professionalism about economics will tell you that point blank.

I don't see why it should be so hard to admit that you don't understand everything when you openly bring in experts to advise you on issues.

There is a big problem with that, and that is that without proper knowledge of a particular issue (expert knowledge) it is not possible to correctly or fairly judge the level of expertise an expert has.
That is to say, that even if you're listening an expert--without precise expert knowledge in an area, you won't know who's opinion or explanation to give more weight. That's the situation our leaders find themselves in every day, and in a world of ever increasing complexity (by the minute).

There was a study done about this which essentially said people are too dumb for democracy to work correctly--lemme see if I can find a link.

Here you go:

http://news.yahoo.com/people-arent-smart-enough-democracy-flourish-scientists-185601411.html

In an age where we can use science to prove that people have social failings, or are predictably irrational, it is disgusting to me that we still fear and avoid facing that truth. Dan Ariely has done some absolutely pioneering work in this area, and I fear that it falls on deaf ears.

We have put our country in the hands of a bunch of people who do not care about it the way they should--and I don't mean politicians. I mean us.

squiggly said:

There was a study done about this which essentially said people are too dumb for democracy to work correctly--lemme see if I can find a link.

Here you go:

http://news.yahoo.com/people-arent-smart-enough-democracy-flourish-scientists-185601411.html

In an age where we can use science to prove that people have social failings, or are predictably irrational, it is disgusting to me that we still fear and avoid facing that truth. Dan Ariely has done some absolutely pioneering work in this area, and I fear that it falls on deaf ears.

We have put our country in the hands of a bunch of people who do not care about it the way they should--and I don't mean politicians. I mean us.

Click to expand...

In the above article Squiggly posted the link to, there is a link to another article, 'Incompetent People Too Ignorant to Know It', which pretty much describes our current political mess in a nutshell. Few people have the intellectual courage to say, "I don't know, and my opinion is likely to be flawed on this subject." Those who do have my respect... It is as important for someone to know what they do NOT know as it is to know something, and to act accordingly. It would be this human failing that has been so expertly exploited by propagandists down throughout history.

Or, to quote Dirty Harry,"a man's got to know his limitations..." This might be Clint Eastwood's finest movie line.

That's absolutely right, Dirty Harry had the right idea.

As an aspiring scientist--I am reminded every day by mentors and higher-ups that it's most important to know what you DON'T know before you can find anything out. You can only only use evidenced evidence, in a manner of speaking.

90% of political debates in this country really are people blathering on about things they don't know much about and--despite what their demeanor and loudness would suggest--don't really care about in a meaningful way.

They only care so far as it takes them to a finger to point, or a belief they can stoically hold despite it's flaws.

I am more than willing to accept any flaws in my argument that are brought forth--or to consider any perspectives I may not have. I'm simply waiting for something that takes that form to appear here--thus far it's been mostly grandstanding.

All people in and around Oakland, California, stand up for your states rights and take back what the federal gov't has taken. If we, as a people keep laying down, they will run over us. Go the fuck down to Oaksterdamn and take the damn place back by force..
Run those fucks out of your town..
Stand up for what is right.
You must make a stand, like we did in the war protests of the 60's and 70's....

Do not be the biggest fish in the pond.
And if you are, then keep your damn mouth shut about it.