Feeding Sulfur to increase terpenes?

[GanjaGardener]

What I like about the approach in this thread is the focus on plant systems and the observational orientation. I respect and am full throttle w/ the microbes, but I'm a naturalist at heart.

I'm here to modify and improve my grow culture like most everybody else here. If my observations or info differ from your own, just take it w/ a grain of salt. If I had it all together (or thought that I did), I probably wouldn't be spending as much time here as I do. lol

When I moved to full cycle indoors I wasn’t happy w/ my aromatics either. The buds had the look, and while not hitting it’s ceiling, (the low/moderate terpene activity being the indicator), the buzz strength was within the 10%-15% range which is indiscernible to most. So why wasn’t I getting the dank?

Nutes
I grew outdoors for 20 years before going full cycle indoors and it took some time to adjust and ‘see’ the plants in, literally, a new light. I had moved indoors, but as one might expect, I was still looking at the plants w/ an outdoor eye- most notably their foliar color as they moved through the cycles. In my case, w/ the growing program I was using at the time, this meant that the plants weren’t as green as they should have been which, in turn, translated to a lack of N throughout but, particularly, during pre-early flower. I had been (overly) influenced by a couple of posts and was flushing a day or two after flipping to flush the N out- supposedly for sweeter buds at the finish. Thankfully, I got off of that kick soon after starting, but my eyes were still not trained to the indoor culture and I continued to underdo the N.

- My guess is that giving the plant’s a boost of N before flipping and following up w/ light-moderate N feedings 2-4 weeks into flower, (depending upon strain and what the individual plant is telling me) is the single most important adjustment I made to improve terpene production.
- Foliar feeding w/ a high P guano, (fruit eating bats) before the buds thicken up, (usually up to wk 4 flr), seems to help, although I can’t prove it.
- Carbos,- not carbo (over)loading (ie 1T molasses/ 5 gal)- and some vitamins during late watering.
- I taper off the nutes beginning and @ roughly 20-17 das, use molasses/vits only from 14-10 das and water only from 10 2 go and on.

Flush
- We don’t full (3x) flush anymore. A full flush during the last 3 days stops or sets back (a virtual stop @ w/ 10 days 2 go) plant processes/uptake. If the container goes “dry”a couple of times during the last 10 days, it’s still transpiring.
- I read ec going in and the run-off coming out throughout the course of a grow. salts are salts- organic or otherwise, and they can and do build up in a container of soil over the course of a grow. We use Alien Seeds 3 day, dry-water-nute feeding cycle, perform a 1x flush 2-3 times during flower including one @ 5 or 6 days before harvest and don’t get salt build-up.
- I flush w/ RO’d water w/o any pH adjustments. VelvetElvis’ approach of stopping uptake by going w/ out of the plants pH uptake range is interesting and I’d like to learn more. I can see where a 9.0/ or 4.0 would stop the plant from uptaking nutes. My question is will the plant systems still be operative enough to feed on it’s stores in an extreme pH?

Dry/Cure
- Fungal spores are everywhere and unless your room is in a vacumn, they’re floating around in all of your rooms. I pull yellow leaves, because dead tissue is the first place that mold/dry rot/botrytis will colonize. I leave all other leaves on to prolong the dry and to protect the trichs. Once the plant is chopped, transpiration and translocation cease.
- Curing has added zest to more than one weak smelling bud. 30 days can make magic, but I wouldn't depend upon it..
- OG Raskal’s curing tutorial, (which is on this site) is dead on, IMHO.

This scratches the surface.

 

[greenops]

That was very helpful Ganja Gardener thanks! I didn't know that N helps producing terpenes.
Would u suggest I continue with my Grow Nute during the first 2 weeks after the switch? Or give 50% of Grow Nute and 50% of Bloom Nute?

 

[norcal215]

i was going to imput that i have used epsom salts also you beat me to it

Very interesting thread and thanks all for the links. I mix my own nutes from base organics and firmly believe that nute/extra selection has an effect on the terps and taste/smell by extension.

I get sulfur from several sources and haven't found a need to add it as a separate ingredient. ie K2SO4 (potassium sulfate.) MgSO4 (epsom salts), actually has more sulfur by weight in the compound than magnesium.

High P bat guano during mid flower seems to bring out the fruit/sweet tones and more nose overall.
There are a couple of particular strains that I foliar feed w/ a *light* dose of N -> wk 4 or 5 and have noticed that hydrolyzed fish increases the skunk tones. Not an exact science... hopefully some more folks will weigh in.

 

[GanjaGardener]

That was very helpful Ganja Gardener thanks! I didn't know that N helps producing terpenes.
Would u suggest I continue with my Grow Nute during the first 2 weeks after the switch? Or give 50% of Grow Nute and 50% of Bloom Nute?

I'm currently running 12 strains which is quite a departure from the 3-4 that I normally run. Seeing plants that I've had past history with growing side by side for the first time has opened my eyes to some of the subtle, and not so subtle, variations in the way that unique strains respond differently to the same feeding program. I had 2 phenos from one strain that responded to N so differently one would think they weren't from the same genus! Starburst (Cannabis Photography)

Pheno 1 greened up, (on the verge of too green) and needed no N feeding in flwr. Pheno 2 had the slightly warmer hue that's usually associated w/ low N and despite custom feedings w/ a healthy dose of N during it's first 4 weeks in flwr (methinks enough to turn the leaves of some strains into potato chips), it never quite caught up, but it would/ve been dropping leaves by mid-flwr and would have suffered down the stretch if I hadn't. Go figure.

I've rarely seen such a staggering difference between 2 strains, let alone 2 phenos, but the example does illustrate the difficulties and pitfalls of making dosing and timing calls and coming up w/ a master nute "schedule of everything"

That being said...
We all need a starting point, a framework to provide a standard from which we can make modifications from.
I'm currently using 10-10-2 Seabird Guano- 1 x - 1/2 x (plant dependent) to continue N into flower and give the plant the P that it is wanting during the transitional stage.

Hi Norcal- I recently read where tobacco growers don't feed w/ Mg during their late cycle because it effects the flavor that the tobacco companies, (and their customers) want. (Did I read that here?) Brand new info to me, don't know how it applies yet, but it's an area I think worth investigating so I'm just throwing it out there.

Peace All and Good {{{Vibes}}}

 

[squiggly]

Yay, I can be useful!

Gonna address a few things that I can say for certain.

1. Sulfur is a very important element in biochemistry (and regular chemistry for that matter). Without getting all nerdy on you talking about molecular orbitals and what not--suffice it to say that sulfur has some really unique properties. This allows it to carry out a wide variety of functions in both our bodies and in plants.

This is absolutely an essential element and a sulfur deficiency could certainly cause all types of problems.

Sulfur is used in the following:

• Amino acid synthesis -- this is the most dramatic difference maker really. Sulfur is an absolutely essential functional group in the active sites of many enzymes (cysteine). Furthermore, proper protein structure depends on disulfide bonds made between methionine and/or cysteine. With a deficiency of these amino acids protein synthesis will STOP--considering that many cellular signals may code for an enzyme to be created en masse which degrades quickly after creation--this can cause some big results. For Methionine this is especially the case as it is a universal start codon for nearly every mRNA sequence.
  
• Essential for Glycolysis/Gluconeogenesis (sulfur is a component of many coenzymes/vitamins)
  
• Electron transport chain for ATP synthesis (as an electron transporter complex--Fe also plays a part this role). Iron-sulfur centers (Fe-S) are prosthetic groups containing iron atoms complexed to a combination of elemental and cysteine sulfur atoms. The cysteine residues provide sulfur ligands to the iron, while also holding these prosthetic groups in place within the electron chain protein. Electron transfer proteins often contain multiple iron-sulfur centers.
  
• AND FOR THE KICKER--The Citric Acid cycle--acetyl CoA is used repeatedly and contains sulfur. Furthermore, and this should be of the most importance here, acetyl-CoA can later be condensed to acetoacetyl-CoA which is an essential reactant in the pathway leading to production of isoprenoids (the monomer units that make up terpenes, and frankly most cyclical molecules in biochemistry).
  
  Following is from Wiki (Acetyl-CoA)
  
  Acetyl-CoA can be carboxylated in the cytosol by acetyl-CoA carboxylase, giving rise to malonyl-CoA, a substrate required for synthesis of flavonoids and related polyketides, for elongation of fatty acids to produce waxes, cuticle, and seed oils in members of the Brassica family, and for malonation of proteins and other phytochemicals. [2]
  
  In plants, these include sesquiterpenes, brassinosteroids (hormones), and membrane sterols.
  

2. Extreme lights affecting terpenes.

Terpenes, and most hydrocarbons for that matter, are low boiling, easily degraded, compounds. They are quite reactive as I've discussed in other posts here (discussing my take on why budder looks like budder does). Lots of stuff can be hurting your terpenes--crazy light and heat could do the trick, ozone and other oxidants are almost certain to.

Its also worth considering something I've heard mentioned before which is that THC/terpenes are natural defenses to uv/infared light. This makes sense as they are easily degraded in light--that means they absorb the dangerous light easily. This is a property we take advantage of in sunscreens--and it is the reason we must reapply them after a given time, because as they react with uv light they are depleted. I've seen this compared to succulents and their various methods for retaining water/preventing burning while reading around. It also make sense that addition of uv light would exacerbate this response in the plant. High UV may tell the plant--holy crap make more sunscreen! While too much UV (or any photon with enough energy to disrupt the bond) might be killing the smelly stuff.

3. Just a little thought I had while typing above--be sure to really wash out foliar sprays prior to flower. Acidic and basic conditions can also easily break down terpenes. Saw someone using a N foliar spray before flower. Nitrogenous substances can be and usually are basic--so this might be something to think about.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Nice primer. Thanks for keeping it on a digestible wikipedia level for us farmers.

 

[squiggly]

If anyone wants copies of my biochemistry powerpoints (3 files) which speak on these issues--pm me with your email and i'd be happy to send them off/annotate them for you. I'm not sure where I can upload powerpoints to be downloaded freely.

These will VERY CLEARLY outline exactly what sulfur is doing in eukaryotic systems. There is a bunch of chemistry/structure going on in the background--but the explanations are simple enough for anyone to decipher.

Basically sulfur is at the center of (ballpark figure) 40-50% of all catabolism/anabolism.

Edit: The Powerpoints are on my dropbox--if you have dropbox (you should if you don't--its awesome) you can send me your dropbox email and i will share the folder with you.

This includes all of my biochem powerpoints. Chapters 13-16 are the useful information here.

Should also be noted (as im reading through these, its been awhile) that isoprenoid units are responsible for the phytol side chain of chlorophyll. If its not becoming more and more clear--sulfur is absolutely essential. The only reason it is lower by weight is that it only takes One molecule of sulfur to account for the reactivity which sometimes can require at least 2 and sometimes more nitrogen atoms in a ring. The sulfur compounds also tend to regenerate themselves as their reactivity is oxidoreductive. Nitrogen compounds tend to be used once and then sent for waste (not including enzymes and the like). Nitrogen is also contained in all protein backbones and is used in many other structural components.

Phosphorous, well that makes the whole thing go round.

Sulfur may be a low % of the plant, but you absolutely can't do anything without it.

 

[GanjaGardener]

kewl. great contribution. can't wait.

 

[Crysmatic]

I've been away from this for two years o.O Good info.

First, a point about greenhouse tomatoes. They are bred for yield, and not taste. This is a necessary evil of being in the business of $2/lb produce. The gourmet tomatoes are grown the exact same way, with the same food, only at higher EC (higher EC improves flavour). The yield/nutrient curve is an inverted bathtub. i.e. there's a point where you'll yield optimum, with a minimum cost of nutrients. So normal tomatoes are also on the low end of the EC scale. Less flavour. Food has lost its flavour in my lifetime...it's not as appetizing, enjoyable, or nutritious as home grown.

I read a thread in 2001 where a grower tried a variety of soil nutes. He found rock phosphate had the biggest buds, but least flavour. Cow manure had leafy buds, but had the most flavour. I've had excellent results with cow/horse manure (I actually base my chem nutes on it).

I'm not opposed to anecdotal evidence. We are a fairly large group, and collectively we observe lots of phenomena. Individually, we may be way off base wrt explanations, but we can keep each other in check. At least it's a starting point for others to research and discover new information. I just don't like cutting and pasting tonnes of information into someone's thread without sharing conclusions or practical benefits. Professional (greenhouse) growers have found what works, and it seems a few individuals in our community like to keep "secrets" in order to exploit us.

I've recently remarked that there are two sides to nutes: the minerals, and hormones. You can grow perfectly healthy plants solely with minerals. I believe the hormones in "organic" nutes is what kicks up the terpenes. Bottle nutes consistently use high K, and molasses. Alfalfa, hops, and other extracts have positive effects. I don't believe it's the mycorrhizae per se that improve flavour. I've also said that we should aim for optimally healthy plants; but some growers swear by stressing the shit out of their plants. There's a lot to ponder here.

Others on the farm have shared positive results with Methyl jasmonate. It increased the trichome count on tomatoes by 900% in 14 days. iirc it was 7 mM concentration. A 0.5 mM (equivalent to 0.1 ml/L water) increased terpenoids in basil (?) by 43-56%. They also mentioned that it changes the terpene ratios.

N6-isopenteniladenine has shown a lot of activity in other varieties (93%). Note that there are hormones that you wouldn't want to mess with (MSDS for ethrel was scary).

 

[kushykush]

Old thread but a very good read. I use all General Organic nutes now, just because of the ease they provide. I used to use Foxfarm lines. Those have a lot more salts and sulfers in them and while I noticed most strains taste much better now than before, a certain group does not. The chem/diesel family. Now I don't want to play into the old myths that chem needed chemical ferts to get its taste, because grown organically, it is still some of the dankest out there. But it was absolutely more pungent and thicker tasting when I ran the Fox Farm stuff. I run two exhaust fans, each with can phresh filters and an intake with a filter as well and the smell could still penetrate close to harvest. I no longer have that problem with it. Now all other strains, especially purple strains taste a world better. But Chemdog D, Chemdog 91, OG#18, and any of the OG's that have more fuel/sour in the taste background were better when I had higher salt and sulfer ratios in my nutrients.

 

[squiggly]

Old thread but a very good read. I use all General Organic nutes now, just because of the ease they provide. I used to use Foxfarm lines. Those have a lot more salts and sulfers in them and while I noticed most strains taste much better now than before, a certain group does not. The chem/diesel family. Now I don't want to play into the old myths that chem needed chemical ferts to get its taste, because grown organically, it is still some of the dankest out there. But it was absolutely more pungent and thicker tasting when I ran the Fox Farm stuff. I run two exhaust fans, each with can phresh filters and an intake with a filter as well and the smell could still penetrate close to harvest. I no longer have that problem with it. Now all other strains, especially purple strains taste a world better. But Chemdog D, Chemdog 91, OG#18, and any of the OG's that have more fuel/sour in the taste background were better when I had higher salt and sulfer ratios in my nutrients.

And this is the way people should be thinking about pot. It's not as simple as this is the best nute mix or what have you. Each "strain" is not only an entirely different genetic group, but each plant is an individual.

Ever had a friend who can eat all day and never gain a pound--even if they try to? Plants have as much if not more genetic variation.

 

[chinqlinq]

Wow... this makes a whole lot more sense to me why these big nutrient companies are adding Mg and Sulfur to their 'sweeteners/carb additives' while consumers think that the sugars are the sole reason behind the added terpenes and flavor.

 

[admiralcornp]

so, where did we end up with the sulfur? Anyone have any updated thoughts?

50% of N

 

[Kronikcowboy]

i'm reading the exerpt from the big book of buds by ed rosenthal (in french) and i'm amazed

basically, humans make perfumes from essential oils which plants use to repel bugs, kill, make sick, stop their maturation, or metabolism. sexy! :p

Ed goes on to explain how terpenes can stop thc from crossing the blood-brain barrier, and once inside, can stop dopamine and seratonin production, or block their receptors (more free dopamine). some terpenes are synergistic, while others are antagonistic (cancel each other out).

i've heard of many nute shootouts where the buds smoked differently - from relaxed to heavy couchlock. same genetics, different nutes. so while a plant is genetically predisposed to produce certain terpenes, environment affect their expression. so what are we doing to our plants when we load our plants with phosphorus? (for example)

myrcene:
a strong analgesic, anti inflammatory and antibiotic. it blocks the aciton of cytochrome, aflatoxin B and other pro-cancerous mutagenics. it's commonly found in small quantities in essential oils associated with anti-depressin, and well being. probably potentiates thc. probably allows more thc to enter into the brain.

limonene
anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-cancerous. [possibly explains why some varieties are pm and bug resistant] ease depression. raises systolic blood pressure. drives the mind to sex, openness, and increased concentration.

caryophyllene
blocks calcium and potassium ions - this lowers blood pressure (il ralentit la pression exercée par les muscles du cœur). local analgesic, good for tooth aches.

pinene
local analgesic and expectorant. inhibits acetylcholinesterase (enzyme which destroys acetylcholine) and aids the formation of memories [!]. bronchodilator. lung expansion. aids concentration, contentment, and energy. terpineol is an antagonist.

terpineol
reduces mobility - couchlock. often found along with pinene.

borneol
good sedative, reduce fatigue, stress, or illness. relaxing yet psychedelic.

delta 3 carene
regulates fluids - runny nose, sweating, and heavy menstrual flows. also dry eyes and cotton mouth.

linalool
lily of the valley, with spicy notes. humans can smell it as low as only 1 ppm. cancer treatment. calming, heavy sedative.

pulegone
destroys acetylcholinesterase - good for memory.

1,8-cineole
increases blood circulation, ease pain. concentration, balance, stimulation.

Very nice info dank you !!!

 

[Humboldt3313]

Molassis works well but needs to be used up quickly. Or keep water airated to prevent bacteria build up

 

[sixstring]

i have been adding sulfer in the form of "raw" nutes and i do notice some extra smells from all my stuff the past few months.i use it during weeks 4,5,6,and sometimes once or twice in wk 7.label calls for 1/2 tsp per gal but im only using 1/4 tsp per G.also use some molassas once or twice at the start of my 10-14 day water only flush ,peace

 

[greensky]

Hi guys I'm new to this forum (but not new to growing ;) )
I just about to start growing again. And was looking for nutrients that increase the terpenes and resin production.
During my next flower cycle I will be using
1) Epsom Salts and
2) Molasses
This as a long article but it had what I was looking for (ppl talking about what works)

Ok I have one thing to add and I can't completely understand it BUT Stress increases resin content (and dramatically decreases the overall weight). I know this from first hand accounts (about 4 times).
I have seen this happen side by side with clones
I already like LST so I'm thinking about pushing the limits on how far I can bend the plants without losing overall production.

So my cheap way to get more resin will be adding Epsom Salt, Molasses and a High Phosphorus Bat Guano Spray along with some ambitious LST training

 

[RippedTorn]

BUMP

Wow... this makes a whole lot more sense to me why these big nutrient companies are adding Mg and Sulfur to their 'sweeteners/carb additives' while consumers think that the sugars are the sole reason behind the added terpenes and flavor.

Then they screw themselves by claiming you can use til harvest. Then the bud tastes not only like sugar water bud from the 70s,but magnesium sugar water bud. Thats why I'd never used bottle products. The simple fact they mislead so many into growing contaminated pot.

 

[Smegal]

I've always heard that you feed extra Magnesium to make buds stinky. I read recently that Sulfur is the key to dank. post #96

Is there any consensus? Or other teks to increase smell?

My main hypothesis is that if Sulfur increases a certain terpene, it is because the particular terpene molecule contains Sulfur, or uses Sulfur in its metabolic pathway (needed to synthesize it). Or else Sulfur ISN'T involved in terpene production.

It's silly to suggest that plant tissue samples will have the same composition as fertilizer ppm...they are made FROM fertilizer, they are not fertilizer. incidentally, only 4% of the plant's mass comes from fertilizer - the bulk from air and water - so it's even silly to say that plants are made from food...but you get the picture.

here are some threads I came upon:





in French



"(E)-BCP is a natural and powerful anti-inflammatory component that is also found in food items like black pepper, oregano, basil, lime, cinnamon, carrots, and celery." This molecule contains Fluoride, but no Magnesium or Sulfur.

I'll research the following terpenes (list from greenhouse seeds) when I get a chance:
1. alpha pinene
2. camphene
3. beta pinene
4. sabinene
5. Delta 3 carene
6. alpha phellandrene
7. alpha terpinene
8. limonene
9. 1,8 cineole
10. y terpinene
11. cis ocimene
12. trans ocimene
13. alpha terpinolene
14. trans caryophyllene
15. alpha humulene

Sulfer os the base of a skunks smell. Im not sure what or how to get that to the plant. But sulfer in the plant is directly connected to flavor. In small amounts sulfur is sweet. Concentrate can cause you to pass out.. https://io9-gizmodo-com.cdn.ampproj...o.com/the-chemistry-of-skunk-spray-1567355548

 

[Dirtbag]

Some people were revolted when they found out I used a sulphur burner through the whole flower cycle once. But it was one of my stinkiest and tastiest cycles ever.

Sulphur is absolutely crucial for flavor and aroma. I usually use a bit of Ag gypsum in early flower and Epsom salt and potassium sulphate in the last half of flower to boost levels.