First Ever Grow, No Til, Documenting Every Learning Step

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

Here is a good example @FutureGrower of how differing treatments alter microbial communities, we all have much to learn, what is the perfect balance, and at what time.
Dendrogram showing the taxonomy and the habitat specialists associated with soil health treatments (AD, anaerobic soil disinfestation; CC, chemical control; CL, caliente control; CH, chitin; CB, combination; CO, compost; CT, control treatment; GC, grass-clover; MA, Marigold; PH, physical control)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5209367/figure/F4/

for those wishing to read the paper on the impacts of farming methods on soil fauna, you can find the paper here, it is of course highly academic as it most of this material. its still in discovery mode so to be expected. Much of what we think we know is not concrete imo

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5209367/

Organikz · Dec 24, 2017

@Ecompost dropping gems as usual. Something i learned as of recent is that the soil should be cooked for minimum 2 weeks. This at least allows the pH of the soil to balance out and become consistent.

I've always had issues the first few weeks of a fresh mix. Well I was bored one day and had a bunch of soil building material and made a batch to have when I need. I opened it and it was all white on the surface. Looked like carpet. When I put my hands in it it looked like cobwebs.

A 2 week cook would actually make your first grow run more smooth and efficiently. As soon as roots take a hit your plant will have to work extra hard to repair.

I have seedlings that I can almost guarantee will never show any issues. This stuff smells of earth in an untouched forest

FutureGrower · Dec 24, 2017

Also for the record

Ecompost said:
Here is a good example @FutureGrower of how differing treatments alter microbial communities, we all have much to learn, what is the perfect balance, and at what time.
Dendrogram showing the taxonomy and the habitat specialists associated with soil health treatments (AD, anaerobic soil disinfestation; CC, chemical control; CL, caliente control; CH, chitin; CB, combination; CO, compost; CT, control treatment; GC, grass-clover; MA, Marigold; PH, physical control)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5209367/figure/F4/

for those wishing to read the paper on the impacts of farming methods on soil fauna, you can find the paper here, it is of course highly academic as it most of this material. its still in discovery mode so to be expected. Much of what we think we know is not concrete imo

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5209367/

I’m too stoned right now to understand this lmao! I’ll read it in a couple hours I appreciate the links man

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

FutureGrower said:
Also for the record

I’m too stoned right now to understand this lmao! I’ll read it in a couple hours I appreciate the links man

ha Ok man, it just says that growing in a diverse organic system is better than not. it goes in to different microbes responding to different base material choices. So what microbes come to the party when we add various inputs, eg compost, chitin, clover, marigolds, anaerobic treatments etc and what these might do to help us, eg limit the risk of plant pathogens etc :-) it looks more complex than it is buddy, but knowing it will help you make choices about what you might add or not to help you

Rcubed · Dec 24, 2017

Ecompost said:
ha Ok man, it just says that growing in a diverse organic system is better than not. it goes in to different microbes responding to different base material choices. So what microbes come to the party when we add various inputs, eg compost, chitin, clover, marigolds, anaerobic treatments etc and what these might do to help us, eg limit the risk of plant pathogens etc :) it looks more complex than it is buddy, but knowing it will help you make choices about what you might add or not to help you

Yeah, I was interested in the part about
the Marigolds and their effect on plant pathogens

"the SHTs were evaluated within conventional system on the potential effects on plant-parasitic nematode P. penetrans and soil-borne fungi V. dahliae. The combination, chitin, anaerobic soil disinfestation and marigold treatments were more effective in controlling P. penetrans and V. dahliae when compared with chemical control.
The genus Lysobacter, chitinolytic bacteria, was found to be associated with chitin treatment and have been described to have an important role in soil suppressiveness, with a potential antagonistic property against Rhizoctonia and nematodes plant pathogens (Tian et al., 2007; Postma et al., 2008). The genus Virgibacillus, another chitinolytic bacteria (Cretoiu et al., 2014), was also found to be associated with chitin treatment, but its role in soil suppressiveness is not described yet. Chitin is a major component of nematode egg shells and cell wall of most plant-pathogenic fungi, and it is assumed that chitin amendments increase the number of chitinolytic microorganisms and chitinase activity, which in turn suppress nematodes and fungi. Members of Flavobacteriales and Chitinophagaceae associated with marigold may also suppress soil nematodes by their chitinase activity (Glavina et al., 2010; Kharade and McBride, 2014), suggesting that besides its ability to produce nematicidal compounds, marigold can also recruit nematode-antagonistic microorganisms (Hooks et al., 2010)."

So this begs the question, should we be planting Marigold as a cover crop or is the indication to add derivatives of Marigold to our soil as Soil Health Treatments?

FutureGrower · Dec 24, 2017

Ecompost said:
ha Ok man, it just says that growing in a diverse organic system is better than not. it goes in to different microbes responding to different base material choices. So what microbes come to the party when we add various inputs, eg compost, chitin, clover, marigolds, anaerobic treatments etc and what these might do to help us, eg limit the risk of plant pathogens etc :) it looks more complex than it is buddy, but knowing it will help you make choices about what you might add or not to help you

You’re the man! I’m gonna be reading it tonight, I just know if I read it right now I won’t retain it well lmao!

I’ve been on a few forums for a bunch of random stuff, this by far is the most positive forum I’ve been on. I really appreciate all the time and effort you guys put into teaching people!

also I came into this just wanting to grow for personal use, and it’s becoming a hobby way too fast... and I still haven’t planted anything! Lol

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

Organikz said:
@Ecompost dropping gems as usual. Something i learned as of recent is that the soil should be cooked for minimum 2 weeks. This at least allows the pH of the soil to balance out and become consistent.

I've always had issues the first few weeks of a fresh mix. Well I was bored one day and had a bunch of soil building material and made a batch to have when I need. I opened it and it was all white on the surface. Looked like carpet. When I put my hands in it it looked like cobwebs.

A 2 week cook would actually make your first grow run more smooth and efficiently. As soon as roots take a hit your plant will have to work extra hard to repair.

I have seedlings that I can almost guarantee will never show any issues. This stuff smells of earth in an untouched forest

this relates to mineralization mate, until we get some stability in the colonies, we get erratic rates of respiration and so peaky delivery of both acids and nutrients. Once the colonies are established based on the parent material, rates of CO2 balance within a range ideal for mineraliszation which makes for better access for plants, esp of critical metals vital to young plants in particular, and means we suffer less pH instability overall which miht limit access otherwise.
Keeping the media moist is really helpful in enabling the conversion of plant food from any super soil pile or new media,
Depending on the material, eg compost, depends on the microbes you get in the system. Fresh compost always leans to actinobacteria and this is the web you see I suspect :-) varying the inputs will vary the life, what the perfect blend is for MJ is still being worked out so everyone have a go and dont be afraid :-)

FutureGrower · Dec 24, 2017

Organikz said:
@Ecompost dropping gems as usual. Something i learned as of recent is that the soil should be cooked for minimum 2 weeks. This at least allows the pH of the soil to balance out and become consistent.

I've always had issues the first few weeks of a fresh mix. Well I was bored one day and had a bunch of soil building material and made a batch to have when I need. I opened it and it was all white on the surface. Looked like carpet. When I put my hands in it it looked like cobwebs.

A 2 week cook would actually make your first grow run more smooth and efficiently. As soon as roots take a hit your plant will have to work extra hard to repair.

I have seedlings that I can almost guarantee will never show any issues. This stuff smells of earth in an untouched forest

Damnit lol, I literally have a seed germinated right now. I’m probably just gonna see what happens this go around but if I burn it I won’t freak out either, thanks man

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

Rcubed said:
Yeah, I was interested in the part about
the Marigolds and their effect on plant pathogens

"the SHTs were evaluated within conventional system on the potential effects on plant-parasitic nematode P. penetrans and soil-borne fungi V. dahliae. The combination, chitin, anaerobic soil disinfestation and marigold treatments were more effective in controlling P. penetrans and V. dahliae when compared with chemical control.
The genus Lysobacter, chitinolytic bacteria, was found to be associated with chitin treatment and have been described to have an important role in soil suppressiveness, with a potential antagonistic property against Rhizoctonia and nematodes plant pathogens (Tian et al., 2007; Postma et al., 2008). The genus Virgibacillus, another chitinolytic bacteria (Cretoiu et al., 2014), was also found to be associated with chitin treatment, but its role in soil suppressiveness is not described yet. Chitin is a major component of nematode egg shells and cell wall of most plant-pathogenic fungi, and it is assumed that chitin amendments increase the number of chitinolytic microorganisms and chitinase activity, which in turn suppress nematodes and fungi. Members of Flavobacteriales and Chitinophagaceae associated with marigold may also suppress soil nematodes by their chitinase activity (Glavina et al., 2010; Kharade and McBride, 2014), suggesting that besides its ability to produce nematicidal compounds, marigold can also recruit nematode-antagonistic microorganisms (Hooks et al., 2010)."

So this begs the question, should we be planting Marigold as a cover crop or is the indication to add derivatives of Marigold to our soil as Soil Health Treatments?

I think what it tells us is a diverse approach is better than a single crop cover, but in essence yes :-) bang on. The reason i posted the paper is to help people understand how by changing our inputs, we might encourage those microbes that might offer us benefit, rather than just blanket dosing any old shit in to something and calling it super soil without rhyme or reason. organics has had a brain lift right, its no longer about the hair under my mates armpits and my cider addled observations after a day in the sun

Rcubed · Dec 24, 2017

FutureGrower said:
You’re the man! I’m gonna be reading it tonight, I just know if I read it right now I won’t retain it You'll be learning while you grow and I'll bet

Ecompost said:
I think what it tells us is a diverse approach is better than a single crop cover, but in essence yes :) bang on. The reason i posted the paper is to help people understand how by changing our inputs, we might encourage those microbes that might offer us benefit, rather than just blanket dosing any old shit in to something and calling it super soil without rhyme or reason. organics has had a brain lift right, its no longer about the hair under my mates armpits and my cider addled observations after a day in the sun

I'll be planting Marigolds in my no till. Besides they'll add some color to the crop!

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

FutureGrower said:
Damnit lol, I literally have a seed germinated right now. I’m probably just gonna see what happens this go around but if I burn it I won’t freak out either, thanks man

:-) they will live brother, you have mycos and will :-)

Rcubed · Dec 24, 2017

FutureGrower said:
You’re the man! I’m gonna be reading it tonight, I just know if I read it right now I won’t retain it well lmao!

I’ve been on a few forums for a bunch of random stuff, this by far is the most positive forum I’ve been on. I really appreciate all the time and effort you guys put into teaching people!

also I came into this just wanting to grow for personal use, and it’s becoming a hobby way too fast... and I still haven’t planted anything! Lol

You're starting off on the right foot so Mother Nature will reward you!

FutureGrower · Dec 24, 2017

I do plan on doing cover crops, I just decided to do everything during a rediculiously busy holiday haha

Organikz · Dec 24, 2017

FutureGrower said:
Damnit lol, I literally have a seed germinated right now. I’m probably just gonna see what happens this go around but if I burn it I won’t freak out either, thanks man

Ride it. A compost slurry in a week may help get things balanced out.

1/4 cup compost to 1g water. Bubble 24 hours. If you have a small air pump don't bubble more than 1g at a time.

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

Rcubed said:
I'll be planting Marigolds in my no till. Besides they'll add some color to the crop!

yes, they also host some interesting predators i found. I use borage and phacellia also. between grows i use a 14 strain mixed cover which i terminate about 4-6 weeks before planting. i have a winter and summer mix. i use more than one crop because you never know the weather and you never know what might not happen. more choice more likely to get something happening, even in the worst years

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

FutureGrower said:
I do plan on doing cover crops, I just decided to do everything during a rediculiously busy holiday haha

be as gentle on yourself as you are with your plants, poco poco as they say here

Rcubed · Dec 24, 2017

Ecompost said:
yes, they also host some interesting predators i found. I use borage and phacellia also. between grows i use a 14 strain mixed cover which i terminate about 4-6 weeks before planting. i have a winter and summer mix. i use more than one crop because you never know the weather and you never know what might not happen. more choice more likely to get something happening, even in the worst years

Cool, I'll add those to my list. So far I have clover, oats, black eyed peas, and now Marigolds that I have going to my cover crop. Someone mentioned radishes as being good too.

FutureGrower · Dec 24, 2017

Ecompost said:
be as gentle on yourself as you are with your plants, poco poco as they say here

Great saying!

Ecompost · Dec 24, 2017

Rcubed said:
Cool, I'll add those to my list. So far I have clover, oats, black eyed peas, and now Marigolds that I have going to my cover crop. Someone mentioned radishes as being good too.

yes, they, Radish, draw up otherwise lost N, P and minerals, are awesome at breaking up compacted media, plus the animals like them here and in return i get a plenty supply of manures without the arse ache of owning my own animals :-) keeps my ground beetles happy.
I try to grow plants that protect the soil, my target crops, this might include leaving plants that act as signposts for other soil food web actors but otherwise have no obvious use, as in the case of many wort type plants for example :-)
https://www.mnn.com/your-home/organ...stories/12-plants-that-repel-unwanted-insects

https://permaculturenews.org/2014/10/04/plants-attract-beneficial-insects/

https://www.rodalesorganiclife.com/garden/10-insects-you-should-actually-want-around-your-plants

Rcubed · Dec 24, 2017

Ecompost said:
yes, they, Radish, draw up otherwise lost N, P and minerals, are awesome at breaking up compacted media, plus the animals like them here and in return i get a plenty supply of manures without the arse ache of owning my own animals :) keeps my ground beetles happy.
I try to grow plants that protect the soil, my target crops, this might include leaving plants that act as signposts for other soil food web actors but otherwise have no obvious use, as in the case of many wort type plants for example :)
https://www.mnn.com/your-home/organ...stories/12-plants-that-repel-unwanted-insects

https://permaculturenews.org/2014/10/04/plants-attract-beneficial-insects/

https://www.rodalesorganiclife.com/garden/10-insects-you-should-actually-want-around-your-plants

Love how nasturtiums repel cabbage loopers. Some of my outdoor crop was damaged by their larvae

First Ever Grow, No Til, Documenting Every Learning Step

First Ever Grow, No Til, Documenting Every Learning Step

Ecompost

Organikz

FutureGrower

Ecompost

Rcubed

FutureGrower

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FutureGrower

Ecompost

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Ecompost

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FutureGrower

Organikz

Ecompost

Ecompost

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FutureGrower

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