Flooming vs Airstones

[phenotyper]

Cool information. I am using two airstones and a pump (for flooming) in my teas, I think I'll ditch the airstones. They are messy, hard to clean, and attract bacteria. Thanks for the experimentation.

 

[Chronic Monster]

Good find!

 

[Nobodynobody]

I personally use 500pumps right now that is zipped tied with a 1/2" tube. To make a free fall drop. Not only that, but its on an adjustable NFT cycle timer. so it gets a break. The AC and the res not having light(in another room).

Still use air stones during feed and little before. Its true bad cheap air stones can pull D.O. out of your res. Reason. The air is getting Force in and has to go Somewhere witch is up. If any air is in the way up. It will go with it.

If you guys want to Take it to the next few steps. Medical O2 that i seen 1 friend do. That seems to work great when i saw this NFT/EBB combo set up.

My idea of the big jump in Advance Tech. Using a DC current in the res. The DC will zap the water takeing the H20 apart of H and O2. In case you did not know. H as Hydrogen is 16 lighter then air! witch means it rise right out of the res. While the o2 sinks in the res. Another words gets ejected into the res.
Now you need another tool that will turn on and off the DC eletroide or whatever its called, so you dont oxigen burn the roots like h202 hydrogen peroxide. From what i recall, root bur is over a DO of 9 and 6 is just healthy. 4 is not looking to good. We all know what 0 can be like..... Your Cims wont get zapped TOO mush so dont worry. Target is more of taking apart raw h20

Check into DayStar i belive if you got the $1500 laying around for a real way of medical DC shock.

 

[Desertboy]

Hydrogen is a flammable gas not sure floating around a grow room is a good idea, yes you could do it safely but I see many fires in a future where we perform electrolysis on our reservoirs.

Adding Ozone will raise the ORP beyond what flooming/airstones can do alone but you have to be areful too much ORP is a bad thing believe it or not.

I keep the reservoir in pitch black obviously and no part of my reservoir is exposed to light except when I'm visiting.

 

[dextr0]

Lol school is in session.

 

[Seamaiden]

Some reason I can't copy and paste the url properly

Oh jeez! Surface turbulence is what it's accomplishing. Wanna know why it works so well? Because, it is ONLY at the water's surface that the O2-CO2 exchange occurs.

maxijet 1000 should do nicely you only need a light surface movement.

I have 2 pumps on 24/7 in my reservoir one pumps to the aquafarm/DWC and the other pumps to the chiller these on their return and what O2 it picks up inside the DWC max's the ORP out.

You can raise the ORP more with Ozone but that's a different story and you can overdo ORP when dealing with ozone.

The heat put out by these maxijet's is really very small.

You did a LOT of research before you started messing around with O3. I hope others will do the same, because it's a dangerous molecule to be messing with. Also, the generators can start fires.

A lot of people think that airstones aerate via the bubbles traveling through the water column. This is not the truth. Good O2 saturation can be realized if one's using a venturi and creating superfine bubbles, otherwise, the only gas exchanges occur on the surface, and that's what makes "flooming" (not a term I'm familiar with) so effective.

Another way to achieve these high O2 saturation levels is to create riffles in the water flow (think stream flowing over rocks).

Edit: Reading the flooming article and they're mentioning venturis, the author might want to investigate experiments in water treatment that have shown the venturis raise O2 levels significantly. I know *I* was surprised to read it. I don't know that it's not alright to allow more than a little swell, I personally think it's better to create more turbulence. And in another "article" the koi vet has written he uses the word "irregardless!" LMFAO!!! Right after complaining the the pundits don't have degrees. :giggle

This is actually my much preferred source of aquatic information generally. I worked with the man, lived with him for a short time (while I was looking for an apartment) and know that his knowledge is above par. The site is often a Googlewhack, even, and many of his fish photos are the only known photos of some species of fish, and are therefore the only photos you'll find on fishbase.org.

www.wetwebmedia.com ---> Bob Fenner. Great guy, IMO.

 

[St3ve]

I'm am soo happy to read that you've done this. It goes along with what I learned in my saltwater reef tank days.

I had designed a tweak to my under current that would eliminate the epicenter and use a 3/4" mainifold that would break off into 1/2" that was piped into the bottom of each site, then a 90 elbow aimed at the surface in each site. I was too scared to try it though. I should just buck up and by an o2 meter and try it.

 

[CelticEBE]

Great thread. Looks like I'm going to ditch my air pumps in my next run. I have always kept a small pump in my res to keep things mixed. I think I remember Seamaiden stating that DO levels can also be increased by a waterfall effect. I'm going with a bigger rez for was thinking I might do something like that to not only keep things mixed well, but to also add DO to my nute solution.

 

[Capulator]

what about?

What about flooming in a CO2 enriched room?

Supposedly it is a no-no to keep yoru airstones in the same room as your bloom room.

Wouldnt flooming be mixing ambient air full of CO2 in to the water in the exact same way as air stones supposedly do?

Can soemone clarify?

I feel that since plants produce o2, there should be ample amounts of it in any sealed room. Also, Since roots use o2, and not CO2, arent they "smart enough" to tell the difference and just use what they need, just as the plant leaves are sucking down the 1500 ppms of CO2 regardless of how much O2 is int he air?

 

[click80]

comparison

Very good info guys.do you think this is going to benefit growth over airstones? Are you doing a side by side comparison?

i added a pump to my res two grows ago....3x6 flood table, technaflora w/bene's, 2 600 lumatek w/hortilux bulbs in xtrasun reflectors, and i busted a gram a watt at the end...which was a substantial increase over previous grows with same strain...i forget what exactly i read on here about using a pump in res, but that is what made me try it....but to be honest i did not think that is what did it, at time i thought it was bene's....i am almost sure now that it wasn't as i am nearing end of another and one res has pump and other has airstones alone...i was doing a comparison to see if bene's can actually have an effect in hydroton...now i am thinking it does not matter....oh, the table with the pump in res is again doing substantially better..i am putting in some more tonite or tomorrow, i will discontinue bene's and compare this alone...very good info peeps....i need to order a DO meter....and i wonder about an ORP meter????

 

[Desertboy]

What I want to know is the difference between DO and ORP in real world terms and which is the number we want.

ORP how I understand it is how much O2 is available in solution in an oxidizing or active form where as DO is total O2 in solution. What the difference is really I wonder and is it ORP we are actually interested in?

Maybe DO is irrelevant and the number we want is ORP I don't know, hopefully someone smarter than me can answer that one.

Either way I think we can take ORP as good indicator of DO content and that a higher one is better than a lower one, at least until someone give us better information (And prove!! Proof is very important it's how we learn).

 

[click80]

What about flooming in a CO2 enriched room?

Supposedly it is a no-no to keep yoru airstones in the same room as your bloom room.

Wouldnt flooming be mixing ambient air full of CO2 in to the water in the exact same way as air stones supposedly do?

Can soemone clarify?

I feel that since plants produce o2, there should be ample amounts of it in any sealed room. Also, Since roots use o2, and not CO2, arent they "smart enough" to tell the difference and just use what they need, just as the plant leaves are sucking down the 1500 ppms of CO2 regardless of how much O2 is int he air?

That is another good question...i have wondered if airstones in co2 enrichment is detrimental since co2 reacted w/h2o produces carbonic acid...or that is what i have read.

Any answers would be appreciated....

 

[Desertboy]

Reservoir itself should be outside the co2 room!

I floom into a DWC pot which has to be in the co2 room I'm not running co2 this time so I can't comment on this but if you're worried you could run an airstone from an airpump that's outside the room into the pot this would mean the pot had normal air inside instead of co2 enhanced.

My gut feeling is 1400ppm isn't going to make any difference and it's not worth the added pathogen risk of an airstone or the hassle but that's gut feeling not fact!

my natural Co2 levels are 600-700ppm (I live near a busy road) I'm not seeing it any problems yet

0.14% CO2 doesn't sound a lot when compared to 21% O2

Regular venting say every 90 minutes to freshen up a sealed room will help keep O2 levels in check especially when using a burner for co2 instead of bottled.



In my setup by far the vast majority of aeration is happening in the reservoir, very little happens inside my aquafarm I pump aerated nutes into the pot.

It probably makes no difference at all in my setup being co2 or not.

My top pot of the aquafarm has 15l's of medium in it which drastically reduces air exchange to the root zone and I don't water it which is the number 1 way of getting fresh air to roots in medium! My roots are getting there O2 from outside my grow via the reservoir.

I use a medium called Fytocell which I believe you guys don't have in the states, it's damn fine stuff possibly the best medium I've ever used. The bottom pot is a 20l DWC.

 

[Desertboy]

I wonder why they didn't mention Ozone the easiest way to super aerate the reservoir?

When the ozone breaks down from O3 to O2 it's then the reservoir takes the extra O2 and the super aeration happens.

At least that's what growth tech reckon.

I read somewhere that human flesh becomes flammable around 40% O2.

I would be at least a bit worried about a fire with increased O2 and/or Hydrogen in the air.

 

[Seamaiden]

What I want to know is the difference between DO and ORP in real world terms and which is the number we want.

ORP how I understand it is how much O2 is available in solution in an oxidizing or active form where as DO is total O2 in solution. What the difference is really I wonder and is it ORP we are actually interested in?

Maybe DO is irrelevant and the number we want is ORP I don't know, hopefully someone smarter than me can answer that one.

Either way I think we can take ORP as good indicator of DO content and that a higher one is better than a lower one, at least until someone give us better information (And prove!! Proof is very important it's how we learn).

That would be a question for one of the authors/contributors of Advanced Aquarist. Or Bob might be able to answer the question if you phrased it as you just did.

As *I* understand it, ORP = ability to rust (because oxidation reduction basically = rust), and it's also a... how would I put this? It's a measure of O3, which is, as you know, an extremely unstable molecule/isotope of oxygen. DO is measuring ONLY O2, which does not "want" to give away that extra atom of oxygen, thusly it's much more stable and unlikely to "reduce" or oxidize. That's just my take on it without looking anything up.

And when in doubt I always go to my fish-people for answers on this stuff.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846579
Randy Holmes-Farley weighs in on this thread, this dude REALLY knows his chemistry shit and is very well known and established in the reefkeeping world. I would follow his links and discussions as well.

 

[click80]

We can take the plant-human symbiotic relationship to another level by increasing the amount of oxygen available to the plant's root zone. Increase the plant's root zone oxygen and the plant will reward you by growing faster and being more productive.

On the contrary, if you fail to supply the root zone with oxygen, the plant will fail to grow vigorously and output high yields.

What it means to oxygenate nutrient solution or grow media
Oxygenating your nutrient solution in a hydroponics application or your grow media, including soil and soilless (Perlite, Clay Pebbles, Rockwool) means to combine o2 with H2O for nutrient solution or allowing o2 to flow through porous grow media.

Before we proceed to the specifics of oxygenating soil and soilless culture root system, It's important to understand how o2 combines its self with H2O. Oxygen is a form of gas found in the atmosphere. Dissolving o2 into water is called a mass transfer process. To accomplish mass transfer, there must be two required parameters.

Firstly, there must be a driving force; the difference between the amount of o2 present in the liquid, and the maximum levels of o2 the water can hold. What this means is water has a threshold of o2 concentration is can hold. This is often referred to as solubility. Henry's Law governs the solubility of a gas substance into liquid.

Secondly, there needs to be an interfacial surface area, the point of contact or interaction between the liquid and the gas. Read on to get a better understanding of what this means for your particular cultivation method.

The degree of solubility of o2 in H2O
Atmospheric oxygen is only sparingly soluble in water. In fact, attempting to combine o2 with water can be an energy intensive process. The range of solubility of o2 into H2O is approximately 15 PPM (Parts Per Million) at 0º C to about 7 ppm at 35º C under 1 atmospheric pressure; Pressure caused by the weight of the atmosphere - The mean value of 1 atmospheric pressure indicates sea-level (at sea level the atmospheric pressure is a mean value of 1). This mean value will decreases with increased altitude.

The temperature of water determines how much oxygen it can hold. Warm water will hold less oxygen than cold. Because of the low solubility rate of o2 into H2O, there is very little driving force to facilitate mass transfer. In order to accomplish any mass transfer on a reasonable time frame, energy must be generated to create an interfacial surface area.

Oxygenating hydroponics nutrient solution
Hydroponics has come a long way since its conception many, many years ago. Commercial hydroponics systems available today typically come with the equipment and technology necessary to facilitate oxygenation of your nutrient solution.

This equipment and technology usually includes a pump to transport oxygen from the atmosphere into the reservoir tank to the air stone which diffuses the oxygen into the nutrient solution. The air stone will diffuse tiny oxygen bubbles measuring a mere 1-2 mm in diameter, which create the interfacial surface area required for mass transfer.

Although the diffused bubbles are extremely small in size, the majority of the released oxygen (90-95%) created by this method will escape from the nutrient solution back into the atmosphere and is thought to be wasted energy -- unless the plants root are partially airborne. If the roots are partially airborne like in NFT systems, for example, they will benefit from the escaping oxygen.

The alternative to using air stones and a pump
Adding 1 pint of hydrogen peroxide to 1 gallon of water can super-oxygenate your nutrient solution. Hydrogen peroxide is two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom. For this reason, Hydrogen peroxide is know as H2O2. Adding H2O2 to H2O will release the extra atom which attaches itself to bacteria and other impurities that may be present, thereby disinfecting the solution. Combine the hydrogen to the water, shake vigorously for 5-10 seconds and leave over night. The next day, you will have a clean water-hydrogen peroxide solution. Add this solution to your reservoir and the extra oxygen atom will attach itself to the roots, aiding in nutrient uptake.

Oxygenating grow media
Oxygenating a grow media is not as complex as saturating liquid with gas. To facilitate aeration of your grow media, the medium needs to be porous; Admitting the passing of gas (eww).

In hydroponics application, the escaping oxygen from the nutrient solution will aid in the aeration of the grow media

sorry to paste this read, but I thought someone may catch something new...my reason for posting is the last two paragraphs...i am using Sure to Grow mats and blocks this next run....I have a chronic lung condition from my navy days and can obtain tank oxygen for breathing at night if i want to...my question- Can i have some input on the idea of not only flooming, but also i was thinking of using my old CO2 diffusion line which came with my tank regulator back when i was using that (i use hydrogen now and love it), but anyway i was thinking of getting my doctor to give me the O2 and hooking it up to the o2 and running the diffusion line under the STG mat and either run it periodically 24/7 or maybe just before and after my floods?

thanks in advance Ya'll....love this forum man, some very smart peeps out there...

peace

 

[Seamaiden]

The H2O2 (using 3% solution) trick is an old shipper's trick for stressed animals. We don't quite use that quantity, though.

Good stuff, click.

 

[click80]

brown roots

The H2O2 (using 3% solution) trick is an old shipper's trick for stressed animals. We don't quite use that quantity, though.

Good stuff, click.

Thanx Sea Maiden...my first question is that i wonder if the person writing that article used 3%, and since i have read that the fillers they add when you buy the 3% is not good for plants, is it just as good to add the hydro strength H2O2 at 4ml/gallon directly in res or is it better to mix it the night before and then add, as the article states....

now on to my problem, although it has to do with roots I am wondering if oxygenation has been my problem with brown roots or is it nutes? please excuse if this is a little out of context of thread, I just want white roots for once or maybe some leads as to why I dont get them....



Here is the deal...I get really great results...and not so long ago I read a thread on here about adding a recirc pump in the res...so i did it and ended up w a phenomenal harvest, tasted great, better potency from previous grows w/same strain BBCheese...but i have never had white roots like I hear others bragging about...now granted I do flood tables, and I have always sort of put the brown color down to the Thrive Alive I use (technaflora) or maybe the hydroton....now since reading this thread and looking at some pythium pics on google i am wondering if its staining from the Thrive or root malfunction....

I used to use Bene's but I have come to doubt their effectiveness when used in conjuction with Hydroton...and am now going to Sure To Grow on the tables im putting in this week...

Sooo....Even though this is a little out of the vein of this thread, I am asking this because i firmly believe in the importance of the root health/oxygen relationship and want to figure out why i never get nice white roots even when i have phenomenal harvests....

Is there anyone else using Technaflora w/hydroton that has brown roots, or does anyone know if this is staining from the Thrive and/or Hydroton? Also do bene's work w/hydroton? Do they work with STGrow? Any input on this would be appreciated...I will add that I use RO water and used to use H2O2 until I started trying Bene's, and I also use Roots Excel now since I have been told it works well by itself and no Bene's....

Also, I am going to put an air diffusion line in under my STG mat since i just went out and got a beefy ECOplus air pump/88 liters model and i am also thinking of getting my doctor to script me an oxygen tank for breathing at night....and if anyone has any pointers with using the STG, even though its out of the context of this thread (like most of this post...lol) i would def appreciate it.

peace

 

[Desertboy]

Remember high O2 environments are very very flammable! This is incredibly important!

I would be very tempted to get an O2 ppm and constantly vent the area around the tank.

Air diffuser or venturi definitely a normal airstone would be a waste and a potential fire hazard due to the amount of wasted O2.

 

[click80]

Remember high O2 environments are very very flammable! This is incredibly important!

I would be very tempted to get an O2 ppm and constantly vent the area around the tank.

Air diffuser or venturi definitely a normal airstone would be a waste and a potential fire hazard due to the amount of wasted O2.

yeah i was thinking from what that article read that aerating the medium with just room air would be more effective/efficient way to aerate root zone........i really dont want to screw w/pure O2 anyway.....just perusing options thanks for the feedback....