Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

Dirtbag · Feb 2, 2023

Moe.Red said:
Dude I love having you around. You come at it from the other direction, lay down some knowledge, and always make me think. Easy to get tunnel vision, you are like the Anti-Elon tunnel buster.

Here's what I think I know.

Fungi that grows on roots is effective in both hydro and soil to increase root surface. (there is a bit more to it than that obviously)
Bacteria that grows in soil is responsible for making nutrients in a form the plant can use. They do many other things as well.
Plants feed bacteria in a symbiotic relationship, evolved in dirt.
We do not need bacteria to ionize nutes in hydro if we use chelated synthetics.
Good bacteria colonies out-compete bad bacteria and fungus to hopefully prevent root rot.

Are you thinking all this beneficial bacteria stuff is only good for preventing root rot in hydro? All the other perceived benefits like stinkier weed is just placebo? If the only benefit is to prevent rot, H2O2 works identically?

In hydroponics, yeah i think it likely has a root protectant benefit but im not sure what else it really offers. I personally dont think its all that much. As far as I know, sulphur is the main nutrient responsible for producing aroma, which matches my experience pretty well. One of my stinkiest crops was flowered with very short 15 min sulphur burns nightly through the first 6 weeks of flower. Short enough that the plants are able to use up all of the sulphur by taking it in by absorbtion through the leaf, and consuming it as a nutrient. Made an enormous difference in flavor too. Only stopped because of the risk, too much can, (and did on other crops) burn the stigmas and stunt growth.

Also having tried a few different types of micros over a few grows using Great white and RAW microbes in numerous types of media, I didn't really notice a whole lot of difference. Maybe they did something behind the scenes? I'm not sure. Nothing noticeable by any means.

Moe.Red · Feb 2, 2023

Microbes!

Time to start the next test including Orca vs Res Water vs hands vs great white + nute water

Moe.Red · Feb 2, 2023

steamroller said:
What about other bacteria like those found in living aqueous environments like Nitrosomonas, Nitrosococcus, Nitrobacter, Nitrospina, Nitrospira and Nitrococcus?
Would they offer any benefits?

In what testable way should I look? In my fog system I could easily do 4 side by sides with 2 clones each. What do I run? Looking at the previous post Max Microbe is off the list. Whatever is in there can't overpower anything.

Moe.Red · Feb 2, 2023

Aqua Man said:
They are also abundant in the air

I can guarantee I get them just like any aquarium, even if not purposefully put in the water. Shedding root cells causes a little ammonia. That's the equivalent of an exudate calling in a bacteria.

Moe.Red · Feb 2, 2023

Dirtbag said:
In hydroponics, yeah i think it likely has a root protectant benefit but im not sure what else it really offers. I personally dont think its all that much. As far as I know, sulphur is the main nutrient responsible for producing aroma, which matches my experience pretty well. One of my stinkiest crops was flowered with very short 15 min sulphur burns nightly through the first 6 weeks of flower. Short enough that the plants are able to use up all of the sulphur by taking it in by absorbtion through the leaf, and consuming it as a nutrient. Made an enormous difference in flavor too. Only stopped because of the risk, too much can, (and did on other crops) burn the stigmas and stunt growth.

Also having tried a few different types of micros over a few grows using Great white and RAW microbes in numerous types of media, I didn't really notice a whole lot of difference. Maybe they did something behind the scenes? I'm not sure. Nothing noticeable by any means.

I definitely need to consider this side of the argument. I should run H2O2 in one of the 4 fog systems as part of the test.

My results that say beneficials improve weed are anecdotal.

I need to define the parameters of success tho. Let say I grow 8 identical clones from Tissue Culture in 4 individual systems in a single grow chamber with proper control and lighting. As close to a lab experiment as we are gonna get.

Maybe 1 = H2O2
2 = Orca
3 = Nothing
4 = Res water from the RDWC system

How do you declare a winning method? Lab testing a given. Accurate harvest, all that. I'll document it all.

That question is for everyone.

steamroller · Feb 2, 2023

Moe.Red said:
In what testable way should I look? In my fog system I could easily do 4 side by sides with 2 clones each. What do I run? Looking at the previous post Max Microbe is off the list. Whatever is in there can't overpower anything.

No clue how to test, but they offer bottles of these bacteria [ combined in a 'proprietary formula'] to 'cycle aquariums' and in the right hands they work [ fast].
You can grow a colony to the size you can sustain.
Tetra Fish sells Tetra Safe Start [ TSS] created by Dr. Tim Hovanec. His credentials in his field are impressive [ nitrifying bacteria]. Dr. Hovanec is the chemist who led the team that discovered the true species of bacteria that carry out the nitrification cycle in water and he developed bottled bacteria.
I can't say I understand if the bacteria that support life for fish by converting ammonia and nitrites into nitrate could enhance how our plants uptake nuets, but it would seem related how the belief is bacteria can be benficial to healthier growth?
Could also be why fish water in hydroponis systems works? Not just the waste,but the presence of the bacteria.
Usually the fish load [waste] is high so the amount/size of bacteria colonies would be large also.??

Moe.Red said:
How do you declare a winning method? Lab testing a given. Accurate harvest, all that. I'll document it all.

That question is for everyone.

We'll declare the winner when you make the stoned post ever!
The testing is all on you!
Keep it fun!

Aqua Man · Feb 2, 2023

Moe.Red said:
Tonight's updates. I'm putting the worst first, good news further down.

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The real sour continues to add root mass, although I don't think it is doubling daily now. More like 80%. Those roots are more than enough to support the leaf mass, I just need this plant to turn on. It's just plain being a finnicky lil bitch. Take a look at this:
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I'm about ready to start researching viruses. Here's Sour Diesel:
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At least she is becoming more typical, even if the variegation adds to the oddity. This plant is respiring and becoming healthy. Incidentally it was closest to the humidifier fan (now off).
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Her root mass is still doubling daily. She has caught up to and overtaken the other.

Hey, those twist locks were nearly perfect, just made one adjustment for fog. So that tent gets put back together and turned on this weekend.

Going on the too much wind theory, I shut off the AC infinity canopy fan Yesterday. It wasn't hitting the plant much at all, if it was enough to cause a wind burn, it just needs to be better genetics. I'm not even pushing yet. Everything but AC and humidifier as of this report has also been turned off.

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All fans were on the lowest settings barely keeping the air filtered and moving. I am not exhausting. Still no CO2 nesessary in a sealed room, so virtually no photosynthesis.

I just need these girls to turn on. I know this seem impatient, but normally my growth is much faster.

I have adjusted my spectrum as far red as it will go in this tent. I've just got different temp COB LEDs with dimmer knobs. I also turned on the "bloom enhancer" leds. These lights are kinda dated now. But they sure have put out a ton of nice weed.

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400PPFD of red shifted light at 40" away. If I turn off bloom enhancer I'm at the light's minimum. I've never run my lights this low this long before, so I'm adding these colored bloom leds in, even tho it raises PPFD, I just want to see if I can trigger something good with spectrum. I'm really running out of knobs to try here.

I got seeds ready to get wet if these don't take a turn to the better. Or maybe I'll hit Mosh up for those GMO clones. Next up Microbes!

I definitely noticed a vigor difference in oldet clone cuts… the legends ultimate indica clearly showed that to me but once it got going although not as fast the growth was better and healthier. It’s very possible its just a really picky bitch and a low tolerance outside of its preferences.

Moe.Red · Feb 2, 2023

steamroller said:
We'll declare the winner when you make the stoned post ever!
The testing is all on you!
Keep it fun!

Moe.Red · Feb 2, 2023

Aqua Man said:
I definitely noticed a vigor difference in oldet clone cuts… the legends ultimate indica clearly showed that to me but once it got going although not as fast the growth was better and healthier. It’s very possible its just a really picky bitch and a low tolerance outside of its preferences.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm hoping to get them both good and healthy and tissue culture them and see if I can get any youth back.

Dirtbag · Feb 2, 2023

Moe.Red said:
I definitely need to consider this side of the argument. I should run H2O2 in one of the 4 fog systems as part of the test.

My results that say beneficials improve weed are anecdotal.

I need to define the parameters of success tho. Let say I grow 8 identical clones from Tissue Culture in 4 individual systems in a single grow chamber with proper control and lighting. As close to a lab experiment as we are gonna get.

Maybe 1 = H2O2
2 = Orca
3 = Nothing
4 = Res water from the RDWC system

How do you declare a winning method? Lab testing a given. Accurate harvest, all that. I'll document it all.

That question is for everyone.

I think the only way to win the quality war is to have it lab tested for cannabinoid and terpene content. Yield would be interesting but the bottom line were talking about is absolute quality in terms of aroma and effects, which can only be measured in the head or the lab.

To add an anecdote of my own, the absolute healthiest, most amazing and super stinky plants I ever did grow, were grown outdoors until they started to flower, then brought inside. Which to me indicates the brix of the sap going into flower has something to do with overall quality, and i think you're onto something with all of this.

Moshmen · Feb 2, 2023

Aqua Man said:
I definitely noticed a vigor difference in oldet clone cuts… the legends ultimate indica clearly showed that to me but once it got going although not as fast the growth was better and healthier. It’s very possible its just a really picky bitch and a low tolerance outside of its preferences.

She was a picky bitch for me in dirt! And I think picking a winner is gonna be hard - we all would judge based on different criteria based on personal preference - I would look at it as a roi situation - it’s all new and intersteing to me , hopefully I can retain some of the info .

smokedareefer · Feb 2, 2023

Aqua Man said:
I definitely noticed a vigor difference in oldet clone cuts… the legends ultimate indica clearly showed that to me but once it got going although not as fast the growth was better and healthier. It’s very possible its just a really picky bitch and a low tolerance outside of its preferences.

She just hasn't caught up to her roots.

Aqua Man · Feb 2, 2023

Hey @Moe.Red on you high root growth and low shoot growth are you still using the clonex or used until very recently?

after replying to a different thread I couldn’t help but wonder this because it likely cont IBA and that will do exactly this, shift the plant to root growth and slow shoot growth.

I typically use it only until i see the clones have rooted

Moe.Red · Feb 2, 2023

Aqua Man said:
Hey @Moe.Red on you high root growth and low shoot growth are you still using the clonex or used until very recently?

after replying to a different thread I couldn’t help but wonder this because it likely cont IBA and that will do exactly this, shift the plant to root growth and slow shoot growth.

I typically use it only until i see the clones have rooted

Good idea but nope.

nothing but RO and nutes and biologics.

Could have been some on the clones tho.

Anthem · Feb 2, 2023

Moe.Red said:
Good idea but nope.

nothing but RO and nutes and biologics.

Could have been some on the clones tho.

So no ferts at all?

Anthem · Feb 2, 2023

Anthem said:
So no ferts at all?

If you are no ferts at all give them about a 20 percent dose of the Jacks clone starter and I can guarantee they will take off.

GranniesGrams · Feb 3, 2023

Moe.Red said:
I push the boundaries. Sometimes destructively, but always instructively. Follow along and laugh and learn with me if you wanna try to chase maximum plant potential!

So it's no secret I have been working with Aqua man on some new ways to do things. This is what I am working on in my part of the world.

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GranniesGrams · Feb 3, 2023

tobh said:
that was going to be my next question. back in my GC days, one of the microgrowers set up a fogponics system using acrylic for the tank and a venturi for circulating the fog. was pretty wild.

(( that was the second post you wrote, each time my mind was hearing Samuel Jackson's voice in my head) ) - sorry I'm new ...

Moe.Red · Feb 3, 2023

Anthem said:
If you are no ferts at all give them about a 20 percent dose of the Jacks clone starter and I can guarantee they will take off.

No I’m running jacks epsom mr fulvic. Around 300 ppm up from 180 ppm at first. No improvement when I upped them.

They are not dropping the ppm at all. Photosynthesis very limited.

I’ll check on them in a bit before work once lights come on.

Moe.Red · Feb 3, 2023

Anthem said:
So no ferts at all?

Wait ferts = nutes right?

"nothing but RO and nutes and biologics."

Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

Dirtbag

Moe.Red

Moe.Red

Moe.Red

Moe.Red

steamroller

Aqua Man

Moe.Red

Moe.Red

Dirtbag

Moshmen

smokedareefer

Aqua Man

Moe.Red

Anthem

Anthem

GranniesGrams

GranniesGrams

Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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