Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

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Moe.Red

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The article answers the questions.
Water can contain much less oxygen than air.
And as I said, it depends on the water/air ratio.
If the roots are misted throughout, they will be wet throughout.
The water forms a barrier, oxygen is only taken up from the water, which as the article says contains much less than the air.
You have a very good water supply with the continuously wet roots, but have less air at the roots.
As the article says, it is a jing and jang with water and air at the roots.
Well, I humbly disagree.

The water does not form a barrier, its a conduit. A better one than an inert substance like rock wool or coco.

And I can raise the DO concentration much higher than anything approaching being spoken about in the paper. The paper only tangentially applies to this grow.
 
Moe.Red

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OK last thing on this.

You have a thin layer of water on roots. Lets say that is 100% DO for that temp. (actually higher in my system) And the roots steal an O2 molecule trapped in the water. Now the water has space for another O2 molecule. Oh hey, there is an ABUNDANCE of O2 readily available floating around in the res. Just grab a new O2 molecule from the res atmosphere and carry on.

Rinse and repeat.

The water is a conduit, not some barrier to fight against.
 
Moe.Red

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i tried to teach him how to use a tool once… and only once lol.
I'm hard headed. And I love me some tools.

1663515451190
 
Jay13.aka.DutchStuff

Jay13.aka.DutchStuff

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You have a thin layer of water on roots. Lets say that is 100% DO for that temp. (actually higher in my system) And the roots steal an O2 molecule trapped in the water. Now the water has space for another O2 molecule. Oh hey, there is an ABUNDANCE of O2 readily available floating around in the res. Just grab a new O2 molecule from the res atmosphere and carry on.
Yes, the article explains exactly that.
Dissolved oxygen can be measured in ppm in water. Here is the table for this.

6


As you say correctly, oxygen is then only absorbed through the water and there can be no more absorbed than the amount dissolved depending on the temperature.
Completely wet roots mean closure of oxygen.
Stupid example, but that's why waterboarding makes you think you're drowning. Water excludes air


Especially if you are working on your own system, I can really recommend manics.
This is a book that the author has put online for free.
All articles are supported by studies and according to current scientific status.
The site says that the book is the grower bible in Australia and New Zealand.

PS: I am not a native English speaker. I have been working intensively with the language for a few years now, but please excuse me if something is misunderstood due to grammatical mistakes 🙂
 
Moe.Red

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Yes, the article explains exactly that.
Dissolved oxygen can be measured in ppm in water. Here is the table for this.

View attachment 1283359

As you say correctly, oxygen is then only absorbed through the water and there can be no more absorbed than the amount dissolved depending on the temperature.
Completely wet roots mean closure of oxygen.
Stupid example, but that's why waterboarding makes you think you're drowning. Water excludes air


Especially if you are working on your own system, I can really recommend manics.
This is a book that the author has put online for free.
All articles are supported by studies and according to current scientific status.
The site says that the book is the grower bible in Australia and New Zealand.

PS: I am not a native English speaker. I have been working intensively with the language for a few years now, but please excuse me if something is misunderstood due to grammatical mistakes 🙂
That chart assumes that we are dealing with 21% atmospheric O2. We are not. The chart does not apply to my grow, make sense?

And even if it was 21%, you can absolutely increase O2 sat in water with pressure. This is all well documented. The disks in the fogger create a tiny high pressure zone as a side effect of making fog.
 
Jay13.aka.DutchStuff

Jay13.aka.DutchStuff

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And even if it was 21%, you can absolutely increase O2 sat in water with pressure. This is all well documented. The disks in the fogger create a tiny high pressure zone as a side effect of making fog.

By mole fraction (i.e., by number of molecules), dry air contains 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen

Just under 21% is considerably more than the 10ppm that can be dissolved in water.
But even the 10ppm is enough for the plants in DWC and normal aquaponics systems.
So if your system can increase that, it should be more efficient than other media-less systems.

But Coco also provides much more oxygen than DTW/Aeroponic, because the roots there have contact with the air with 209500ppm oxygen.

At that point, I've shared with you all the info I have on it.

I will look forward to see your system in action then ☺️
 
Moe.Red

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So for the folks out there that have asked me this many times, here is how pumps and switches and valves make maint a breeze.


For clarity - this is NOT fogponics, just another grow space I am bringing online for some sweet Durban Poison to go into jars.
 
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Moe.Red

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By mole fraction (i.e., by number of molecules), dry air contains 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen

Just under 21% is considerably more than the 10ppm that can be dissolved in water.
But even the 10ppm is enough for the plants in DWC and normal aquaponics systems.
So if your system can increase that, it should be more efficient than other media-less systems.

But Coco also provides much more oxygen than DTW/Aeroponic, because the roots there have contact with the air with 209500ppm oxygen.

At that point, I've shared with you all the info I have on it.

I will look forward to see your system in action then ☺️
Wait, you do understand that none of that applies, right? I am, thru active methods using Aqua's brain child, making the res as close to pure O2 as I can - again approaching 90%.

The rules are different here my friend.
 
Jay13.aka.DutchStuff

Jay13.aka.DutchStuff

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Yes, I'll have to take another close look at the system. I can see that you can't compare it with Aeroponic and that you've already given it a lot of thought.

But the info on the Coco was perhaps interesting for some people here. Aqua is hopefully still interested in it as well. It's just a bit of scientific confirmation of the merits of his old system.

To the question of whether it's better than hydro, I would definitely say that your system could beat any other media-less system, as far as I can judge now 🥰
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Yes, I'll have to take another close look at the system. I can see that you can't compare it with Aeroponic and that you've already given it a lot of thought.

But the info on the Coco was perhaps interesting for some people here. Aqua is hopefully still interested in it as well. It's just a bit of scientific confirmation of the merits of his old system.

To the question of whether it's better than hydro, I would definitely say that your system could beat any other media-less system, as far as I can judge now 🥰
I'm not ready to say that yet, it may be a flop. But understanding what is actually being tried here is why I was replying. Not to state this is the best, just that my test is different than anything you posted.

I have hopes for the performance, but this is m y first attempt at fog. We will see.
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

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Aren't the % of DO in water only true for stabilized water in an atmospheric equilibrium? I'd think the kinetics in fogponics alone increase through physical mixture.
And yes Moe that way of replenishing is spot on.
Also that any water the root drinks is highly oxygenated so the O2 makes it right into the plant sap.
 
Moe.Red

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Aren't the % of DO in water only true for stabilized water in an atmospheric equilibrium? I'd think the kinetics in fogponics alone increase through physical mixture.
And yes Moe that way of replenishing is spot on.
Also that any water the root drinks is highly oxygenated so the O2 makes it right into the plant sap.
We are thinking alike. Those tiny water droplets (3 - 5 micron range) are almost all surface area, being blown around and mixed with nearly pure O2 as they float. If there is a way to get more O2 directly to the roots, I don't know what it is.

Question is will that O2 provide for superior grow?
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

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Question is will that O2 provide for superior grow?
We shall see. I'd say yes. In an academic book on plant physiology the professor described how the root naturally follows the line between free water & atmosphere. So that the places where the root grows these parts have simultaneously access to both water + free oxygen. This should make it easier for the metabolism there. Plants typically respond positive to an optimization to their environmental condition.
The fogponics should create such a "physiological best" situation right over the whole root surface.

But I'm not sure if other factors may also have to be considered. Guess it depends on the control.
 
Moe.Red

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We shall see. I'd say yes. In an academic book on plant physiology the professor described how the root naturally follows the line between free water & atmosphere. So that the places where the root grows these parts have simultaneously access to both water + free oxygen. This should make it easier for the metabolism there. Plants typically respond positive to an optimization to their environmental condition.
The fogponics should create such a "physiological best" situation right over the whole root surface.

But I'm not sure if other factors may also have to be considered. Guess it depends on the control.
Yup, you get what I am trying for here, and see the same unknowns. Control is key :)
 
Aqua Man

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Yeah traditional calculations go out the window when you change the equilibrium input used in the calculation of henrys law.

By doing so now we need to find out at what parameters do we see increases in growth and when do you start to see diminishing returns or even negative effects…. This area is completely new compared to any research i have found but there are a few papers that show an increase above atmospheric levels does infact provide improved growth rates…. Its just a matter of finding the limitations.

much like the increase in atmospheric co2.
 
Moe.Red

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Sidestep here to show people the development process if you are interested.

Step 1, cut a hole in the glass, install the float valve, put it on a level spot under the same pressure I will be using, and find the height of the water.

06504175 AEF6 4191 9031 F0579C707AEE

5B3CBF4B 9692 4274 AD83 D42EC4456615

18E5B73B 1D03 4FD0 8A45 DAEB77E087A0


Design the needed part in Fusion 360:

16879117 72E9 4EE5 81D2 D76ABA7C0D53



Export to the 3D Printer Slicer software:

D19F7D6B AB50 4833 8F51 29FE60036393


And finally, print it



I'm using PETG for this part, it is a common plastic that many bottles you buy at the supermarket are made from. It is porous after printing, so not strictly food safe when printing, but good enough for my needs.

When this gets done, I'll start testing and see if this fixes my heat issues.
 
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Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Gonna need another fan setup here, so I'll get that printing too:

Screen Shot 2022 09 18 at 32211 PM


That keeps the fan out of any water and allows for positioning anywhere at any angles. I'll use this to blow across the fogger res and stir the air in the big res. It will not be in a position to contact roots.
 

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