Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

[PipeCarver]

I’m learning so much about microbes right now.

I am more convinced than ever that a live res is the preferred way to grow if you attempting to hack into some process to steer the growth of the plant.

If there are any sterile growers out there that require convincing I’m ready to debate any portion of that live vs sterile debate.

I can see myself growing my own cultures in qty going forward. I’m envisioning a very low level of carbs and a full dose of cultures in each of the nutrient supply tanks giving a constant supply of colonies in the right proportions.

I can’t do it this run because these are going to be sisters not clones, but I like the idea of doing 1 res h2o2, 1 res nothing, 1 res full spectrum great white, and one with Bacillus amyloliquefaciens only. Run the same nutes and all other conditions equal.


@Trustfall is coming thru with genetics for the RDWC system. I think taking clones from one of those incoming plants might be a good way to test this out. Those are well known genetics with several pictures on the farm in many grow conditions.

So, there is the setup to help me get thru this college course. We’ll call this the required lab for “understanding root zone interactions in the presence of sugars and symbiotic organisms 101. “


And for my good buddy Pipecarver who wishes my posts were 2 sentences long max:

TLDR: I’m gonna observe the plant response to sugars, beneficial bacteria, and fungus in the root zone against a set of controls. I’ll grow 8 clones in the same system and treat them differently to do this.

I can handle a few more if you'd add pictures....Just like Dick and Jane books...big pictures big print....

 

[Dr.Dutch]

I’m learning so much about microbes right now.

I am more convinced than ever that a live res is the preferred way to grow if you attempting to hack into some process to steer the growth of the plant.

If there are any sterile growers out there that require convincing I’m ready to debate any portion of that live vs sterile debate.

I can see myself growing my own cultures in qty going forward. I’m envisioning a very low level of carbs and a full dose of cultures in each of the nutrient supply tanks giving a constant supply of colonies in the right proportions.

I can’t do it this run because these are going to be sisters not clones, but I like the idea of doing 1 res h2o2, 1 res nothing, 1 res full spectrum great white, and one with Bacillus amyloliquefaciens only. Run the same nutes and all other conditions equal.

Such a system cannot be called sterile. With h2o2 you can suppress microbial life somewhat (can be measured with an ORP meter) but it also brings disadvantages.
I have read a few papers from Bugbee in the last few days.
There he also confirms what I have heard more often: H2O2 attacks the synthetic organic chelates like EDTA and co.

I can recommend you these three papers, which are even more interesting with a recirculating system.

Principles of nutrient and water management for indoor agriculture

NJ Langenfeld, DF Pinto, JE Faust, R Heins, B Bugbee, Sustainability, 2022 - 35-mal zitiert

scholar.google.com

Nutrient Management for Recirculating Hydroponics

NJ Langenfeld, LE Payne, B Bugbee, 2022

scholar.google.com

Utah hydroponic solutions

B Bugbee, N Langenfeld, 2022 - 3-mal zitiert

scholar.google.com

In the case of MOs, I would also see the biggest advantage in the great effect against pathogens. The effects have been proven in many studies.
Only the exact effects of different combinations are still somewhat mysterious to me.
The Great White, for example, I would rather see as a broad-spectrum product, which is also intended for soil or similar. The Glomus spp. do not make sense in hydro, because they can only solubilize rock phosphates.

I use Max Microbe

#3 is the most commonly referred to variety used in hydro.

This looks better than the Great White in my opinion. Theoretically, the only thing missing is Trichoderma.
With the fungi, I have been wondering for some time whether they can survive only in water.
Moe, you haven't seen fungi in water with your microscope, have you?
I absolutely have to buy one for that

These are the products I am testing right now. On the left, BioPak, which makes a good impression in the tank so far. I didn't like the ColonizeAG on the right as much, which resulted in slight sedimentation. But will have to get another mono Trichoderma product and then see if that was due to the fungi or something else.

https://www.phc.eu/en/product/#producttype[]=bacteriele-producten

TLDR: I’m gonna observe the plant response to sugars, beneficial bacteria, and fungus in the root zone against a set of controls. I’ll grow 8 clones in the same system and treat them differently to do this.

That is one of the benefits of running the fog or DWC. 6 months ago I would have doubted their being any benefit.I ran sterile for years and I switch to live as well. Only challenge with going live might be with Rockwell. Never tried it but I understand algae is a problem growing on top. wonder if anyone does live in RW with success.

My DtW-Coco system also runs completely with living res.
With n1ghtl1ght I had actually already proposed and approved the term "Living Hydroponic" for it
On the first pages I think I had posted quite a lot of info from manics regarding the advantages of Coco and Bennis.
Have to write a mail to him. Since a few days there is an email on the page with the password, to which one can contact

We growers like to science the shit out of this stuff

My excel Mo Sheet after a few months

[edit] DtW-Coco, not DwC^^

 

[Moe.Red]

Such a system cannot be called sterile. With h2o2 you can suppress microbial life somewhat (can be measured with an ORP meter) but it also brings disadvantages.
I have read a few papers from Bugbee in the last few days.
There he also confirms what I have heard more often: H2O2 attacks the synthetic organic chelates like EDTA and co.

I can recommend you these three papers, which are even more interesting with a recirculating system.

Principles of nutrient and water management for indoor agriculture

NJ Langenfeld, DF Pinto, JE Faust, R Heins, B Bugbee, Sustainability, 2022 - 35-mal zitiert

scholar.google.com

Nutrient Management for Recirculating Hydroponics

NJ Langenfeld, LE Payne, B Bugbee, 2022

scholar.google.com

Utah hydroponic solutions

B Bugbee, N Langenfeld, 2022 - 3-mal zitiert

scholar.google.com

In the case of MOs, I would also see the biggest advantage in the great effect against pathogens. The effects have been proven in many studies.
Only the exact effects of different combinations are still somewhat mysterious to me.
The Great White, for example, I would rather see as a broad-spectrum product, which is also intended for soil or similar. The Glomus spp. do not make sense in hydro, because they can only solubilize rock phosphates.


This looks better than the Great White in my opinion. Theoretically, the only thing missing is Trichoderma.
With the fungi, I have been wondering for some time whether they can survive only in water.
Moe, you haven't seen fungi in water with your microscope, have you?
I absolutely have to buy one for that

These are the products I am testing right now. On the left, BioPak, which makes a good impression in the tank so far. I didn't like the ColonizeAG on the right as much, which resulted in slight sedimentation. But will have to get another mono Trichoderma product and then see if that was due to the fungi or something else.

View attachment 1323246 View attachment 1323247
https://www.phc.eu/en/product/#producttype[]=bacteriele-producten





My DtW-Coco system also runs completely with living res.
With n1ghtl1ght I had actually already proposed and approved the term "Living Hydroponic" for it
On the first pages I think I had posted quite a lot of info from manics regarding the advantages of Coco and Bennis.
Have to write a mail to him. Since a few days there is an email on the page with the password, to which one can contact




My excel Mo Sheet after a few months
View attachment 1323248

[edit] DtW-Coco, not DwC^^

Agreed Sterile is an incorrect term. We will never be truly sterile.

I have not found fungi in the water, although I have not really looked. I have found large colonies on the roots and substrate visible with the naked eye. I'm doubtful that fungi can exist on salts alone, it needs the plant for food. I would not expect to find measurable qty free floating in water with nothing to sustain it. But I'll take a peek and see what we have.

 

[Anthem]

Such a system cannot be called sterile. With h2o2 you can suppress microbial life somewhat (can be measured with an ORP meter) but it also brings disadvantages.
I have read a few papers from Bugbee in the last few days.
There he also confirms what I have heard more often: H2O2 attacks the synthetic organic chelates like EDTA and co.

Most people attempting to create a sterile hydroponic reservoir system do not use H2O2 due to the harmful effects. The most commonly used is hypochlorous acid as it does not have the detrimental properties associated with H2O2. The studies you posted about WUE do not appear usable for the common home grower. Tissue sampling to determine nutrient requirements is outside of the home growers abilities. The system outline in the posted papers is the future of growing commercial cannabis. This is the point where capital and science will provide a product well beyond the ability of an individual with experience and understanding. It is the shift from master grower to well funded corporations taking the lead. Additionally, this is the point where prices will plummet further because once the nutrient studies and environmental studies are complete the cost associated with production will just be the raw cost associated with growing the product. Further, this is also the point where each strain will be grown to food and environmental perfection. Large Corporations will benefit from the consumer in this environment by marketing new strain releases. When this first happens they will be smart about it and pick some good overall strains and provide a base of different strains. Then they will begin using new strain releases as their marketing and their marketing will be accurate. Once this happens and the consumer buys in, there will be a ripple effect. It will be the nail in the coffee for breeders. No longer will there be releases of new strains everyday. New strains will ultimately be developed by the commercial growers.

The problem with a live system in todays commercial cannabis growing systems is the media of choice Rockwool. Rockwool is saturated with low GPH emitters that can clog easily. These emitters are pressurized by highly accurate pumps and have to be for each plant to receive the exact amount of water. Hence crop steering by drought effect. If you are doing drain to waste that might not be a problem but usually the rcokwoul is exposed to light and this is an ideal location for algae to grow. This is the main reasons why commercial facilities are running hypochlorous acid products. The products commonly used are cleanse by Athena, UC Roots by Under Current, Clean Up by Front Row Ag.

 

[Moe.Red]

Ok so not fogponics but still happy to have these rooted clones from @Trustfall

Here they are happily in their new home

They arrived 1 day early so had to jump thru some hoops getting set up. Temp still coming up, rh almost there. Should look better tomorrow.

No CO2 yet, lights at minimum. Just easing them in to their new surroundings.

Should be a fun grow. My son is doing this one and cutting his teeth on the process.


Also moved the first batch of HAOG x Chem from @Oldsog into a 1 pound grove bag. We’ll put those to the test

 

[Dr.Dutch]

I have not found fungi in the water, although I have not really looked. I have found large colonies on the roots and substrate visible with the naked eye. I'm doubtful that fungi can exist on salts alone, it needs the plant for food. I would not expect to find measurable qty free floating in water with nothing to sustain it. But I'll take a peek and see what we have.

At manics, there was a statement about the trichos at that time that they would spread very quickly everywhere.
I also know from studies that they can survive on dead plant material for a long time, so theoretically they could not be dependent on roots.
There should be food for the fungi in your system due to the root exudates.
To manics: The answer came very quickly and was unfortunately negative. Page is permanently closed.
But good i've spamed so much info here at that time - at least a small backup. But have backed up more in another forum

Most people attempting to create a sterile hydroponic reservoir system do not use H2O2 due to the harmful effects. The most commonly used is hypochlorous acid as it does not have the detrimental properties associated with H2O2

Small stroke of luck: Yesterday I searched my whole history to find another link from manics. Negative.
But through this page is linked exactly the same thing.
There you can find some general info about cleaning/disinfection
https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floriculture/fact-sheets/cleaning-disinfecting-greenhouse
But the second page is a bit more detailed. To many pathogens and counteragents detailed info can be found here. Second tool here on the page.
https://www.cleanwater3.org/default.asp

The problems that organic compounds are attacked occur afaik with all oxidizers.
However, I am still in the process of going through Prof. Dave's basic chemistry course on YouTube. When I'm done with it, I can hopefully understand this completely.

The studies you posted about WUE do not appear usable for the common home grower.

It explains very well how co2 and other humidity, for example, affect the amount of nutrients needed.
Also, how nutrients are absorbed, why you can reduce the EC somewhat towards the end and many other things.
I am actually very long in the process of dealing with the nutrients in detail and through the papers again some things became clearer.
If you do not work with Hydro Store fertilizers, the sheets are really worth reading

Tissue sampling to determine nutrient requirements is outside of the home growers abilities.

The analyses are only one way to control the needs of the plants. You can orientate yourself on this, I think Bugbee provides his values for this purpose.
Whether the values determined there are then also the optimal values for the nutrient solution, is also not said. There is very interesting information about copper at the end of one of the papers.
I myself also use significantly higher values for the micros than would be necessary according to Bugbee's leaf analyses.

The system outline in the posted papers is the future of growing commercial cannabis. This is the point where capital and science will provide a product well beyond the ability of an individual with experience and understanding. It is the shift from master grower to well funded corporations taking the lead. Additionally, this is the point where prices will plummet further because once the nutrient studies and environmental studies are complete the cost associated with production will just be the raw cost associated with growing the product. Further, this is also the point where each strain will be grown to food and environmental perfection. Large Corporations will benefit from the consumer in this environment by marketing new strain releases. When this first happens they will be smart about it and pick some good overall strains and provide a base of different strains. Then they will begin using new strain releases as their marketing and their marketing will be accurate. Once this happens and the consumer buys in, there will be a ripple effect. It will be the nail in the coffee for breeders. No longer will there be releases of new strains everyday. New strains will ultimately be developed by the commercial growers.

Oh, very big topic. I'll leave that out for now, because I can't say much about it here from Europe.
Only: I'd be happy if we had half the possibilities here that you have over there

The problem with a live system in todays commercial cannabis growing systems is the media of choice Rockwool. Rockwool is saturated with low GPH emitters that can clog easily. These emitters are pressurized by highly accurate pumps and have to be for each plant to receive the exact amount of water. Hence crop steering by drought effect. If you are doing drain to waste that might not be a problem but usually the rcokwoul is exposed to light and this is an ideal location for algae to grow. This is the main reasons why commercial facilities are running hypochlorous acid products. The products commonly used are cleanse by Athena, UC Roots by Under Current, Clean Up by Front Row Ag.

Organics can also keep the lines clear. This is stated directly in the data sheet of my BioPak

On page 5 or so I told you about that. But I have to admit that this was only based on forum information.
Manics went into great detail about how natural chelating agents and the right MOs keep the lines clean.
So far, this is also confirmed in my tests here.
I also work with Netafim drippers. 72 pieces at the moment, SoG on 1.2x2.4m.

 

[Moe.Red]

At manics, there was a statement about the trichos at that time that they would spread very quickly everywhere.
I also know from studies that they can survive on dead plant material for a long time, so theoretically they could not be dependent on roots.
There should be food for the fungi in your system due to the root exudates.
To manics: The answer came very quickly and was unfortunately negative. Page is permanently closed.
But good i've spamed so much info here at that time - at least a small backup. But have backed up more in another forum


Small stroke of luck: Yesterday I searched my whole history to find another link from manics. Negative.
But through this page is linked exactly the same thing.
There you can find some general info about cleaning/disinfection
https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floriculture/fact-sheets/cleaning-disinfecting-greenhouse
But the second page is a bit more detailed. To many pathogens and counteragents detailed info can be found here. Second tool here on the page.
https://www.cleanwater3.org/default.asp
View attachment 1323623View attachment 1323625

View attachment 1323624
The problems that organic compounds are attacked occur afaik with all oxidizers.
However, I am still in the process of going through Prof. Dave's basic chemistry course on YouTube. When I'm done with it, I can hopefully understand this completely.


It explains very well how co2 and other humidity, for example, affect the amount of nutrients needed.
Also, how nutrients are absorbed, why you can reduce the EC somewhat towards the end and many other things.
I am actually very long in the process of dealing with the nutrients in detail and through the papers again some things became clearer.
If you do not work with Hydro Store fertilizers, the sheets are really worth reading


The analyses are only one way to control the needs of the plants. You can orientate yourself on this, I think Bugbee provides his values for this purpose.
Whether the values determined there are then also the optimal values for the nutrient solution, is also not said. There is very interesting information about copper at the end of one of the papers.
I myself also use significantly higher values for the micros than would be necessary according to Bugbee's leaf analyses.



Oh, very big topic. I'll leave that out for now, because I can't say much about it here from Europe.
Only: I'd be happy if we had half the possibilities here that you have over there


Organics can also keep the lines clear. This is stated directly in the data sheet of my BioPak
View attachment 1323631
On page 5 or so I told you about that. But I have to admit that this was only based on forum information.
Manics went into great detail about how natural chelating agents and the right MOs keep the lines clean.
So far, this is also confirmed in my tests here.
I also work with Netafim drippers. 72 pieces at the moment, SoG on 1.2x2.4m.

Damn Manic Botanic is down! I should have backed that site up!

Hopefully they get it worked out and come back online, that was a wealth of info.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

If you were missing certain articles, I can look for them in the other forum.
Most of the things that do not belong to the basic knowledge, I had put together there at that time for a friend.
I was actually missing only the articles on triacantenol and algae extract, where I could not remember everything the first time I read and were unfortunately not posted by me at any point.

Some of the things (e.g. silicon, differences in the absorption of different nutrients, oxygen saturation in water cultures) are also explained in Bugbee's paper. As said worth reading - also a few words about the nutrient meters you posted somewhere here

Did you read the part about amino acids, especially glycine, back then? I'd be really interested in tests on that, since his article was based on studies that weren't done with hemp and imho the whole thing should be seen more as a hypothesis that would need further investigation.

As said, I can post you the whole part here if you want, in case you are missing it.

Hopefully they get it worked out and come back online, that was a wealth of info.

It doesn't look like we can have much hope.
The answer in the mail was also short and precise: "Site is permanently closed."

 

[Zoneshityee]

Awesome, from my previous testing with fog, it is by far the best at the beginning stages, roots form fastest and massive! I found it better to move to dwc after this part though. I think maybe the heat or something later on in growth is why I chose to use fog for early growth only.

Excited to see your experience here and see if our results are similar or not!
Thank you.

 

[Moe.Red]

Awesome, from my previous testing with fog, it is by far the best at the beginning stages, roots form fastest and massive! I found it better to move to dwc after this part though. I think maybe the heat or something later on in growth is why I chose to use fog for early growth only.

Excited to see your experience here and see if our results are similar or not!
Thank you.

Welcome fellow foggy.

 

[Zoneshityee]

If you were missing certain articles, I can look for them in the other forum.
Most of the things that do not belong to the basic knowledge, I had put together there at that time for a friend.
I was actually missing only the articles on triacantenol and algae extract, where I could not remember everything the first time I read and were unfortunately not posted by me at any point.

Some of the things (e.g. silicon, differences in the absorption of different nutrients, oxygen saturation in water cultures) are also explained in Bugbee's paper. As said worth reading - also a few words about the nutrient meters you posted somewhere here

Did you read the part about amino acids, especially glycine, back then? I'd be really interested in tests on that, since his article was based on studies that weren't done with hemp and imho the whole thing should be seen more as a hypothesis that would need further investigation.

As said, I can post you the whole part here if you want, in case you are missing it.


It doesn't look like we can have much hope.
The answer in the mail was also short and precise: "Site is permanently closed."
View attachment 1323967

Amino is great, use after moving from fog and stop when flowering. This is what I like to use for that !

 

[Moe.Red]

Amino is great, use after moving from fog and stop when flowering. This is what I like to use for that !

I'm still learning about this. Do you have some results yo can share, or just sorta a gut feeling it is beneficial?

Are you saying the plants uptake aminos, or it improves the benficials?

 

[Moe.Red]

I got stymied pretty hard last year with supply chain issues and chip shortages. The main computer I use for my grow controller system (raspberry pi 4) went from $45 to over $200, and then you could only get one at a time and wait for it. Had problems across the board like that with sensors and probes and everything.

Still not in stock, but soon this problem will be in the past. Supply chain has finally caught up.

Supply chain update - it's good news! - Raspberry Pi

For the first time in a couple of years of semiconductor supply chain hell, we've got some good news for you. A bump in single-unit availability this month, and a cheerful outlook from the second quarter of next year onwards.

www.raspberrypi.com

About time!

Now we can get back to work on the electronics side of this project too. Feels like it has been forever now.

 

[Goodshit97]

I got stymied pretty hard last year with supply chain issues and chip shortages. The main computer I use for my grow controller system (raspberry pi 4) went from $45 to over $200, and then you could only get one at a time and wait for it. Had problems across the board like that with sensors and probes and everything.

Still not in stock, but soon this problem will be in the past. Supply chain has finally caught up.

Supply chain update - it's good news! - Raspberry Pi

For the first time in a couple of years of semiconductor supply chain hell, we've got some good news for you. A bump in single-unit availability this month, and a cheerful outlook from the second quarter of next year onwards.

www.raspberrypi.com

About time!

Now we can get back to work on the electronics side of this project too. Feels like it has been forever now.

My father in law had the same issue, he bought an "orange"pi and said it works very similar. I know nothing about them to say it works the same lol.

 

[Goodshit97]

My father in law had the same issue, he bought an "orange"pi and said it works very similar. I know nothing about them to say it works the same lol.

Upon my dumbass looking into it ever so slightly. I got that the orange pi 4 runs better than a raspberry pi 4. wtf do i know about this? Absolutely nothing lmao. Just thought i might give my 2 cents and maybe help out lol.

 

[Zoneshityee]

I use one as well, started preparing it for use with grow but never finished. Got mine like at 250 :/ mounted it to old laptop screen and got some esp32's, want to put sensors and camera on esps and stream data to pi, which will do all controlling. Just haven't got that far along lol... and let me find some comparative data on the amino, I'll get back 2 u shortly

 

[smokedareefer]

I’m learning so much about microbes right now.

I am more convinced than ever that a live res is the preferred way to grow if you attempting to hack into some process to steer the growth of the plant.

If there are any sterile growers out there that require convincing I’m ready to debate any portion of that live vs sterile debate.

I can see myself growing my own cultures in qty going forward. I’m envisioning a very low level of carbs and a full dose of cultures in each of the nutrient supply tanks giving a constant supply of colonies in the right proportions.

I can’t do it this run because these are going to be sisters not clones, but I like the idea of doing 1 res h2o2, 1 res nothing, 1 res full spectrum great white, and one with Bacillus amyloliquefaciens only. Run the same nutes and all other conditions equal.


@Trustfall is coming thru with genetics for the RDWC system. I think taking clones from one of those incoming plants might be a good way to test this out. Those are well known genetics with several pictures on the farm in many grow conditions.

So, there is the setup to help me get thru this college course. We’ll call this the required lab for “understanding root zone interactions in the presence of sugars and symbiotic organisms 101. “


And for my good buddy Pipecarver who wishes my posts were 2 sentences long max:

TLDR: I’m gonna observe the plant response to sugars, beneficial bacteria, and fungus in the root zone against a set of controls. I’ll grow 8 clones in the same system and treat them differently to do this.

"@Trustfall is coming thru with genetics for the RDWC system"

Interesting, exactly what specific traits is he breeding for?

 

[Trustfall]

"@Trustfall is coming thru with genetics for the RDWC system"

Interesting, exactly what specific traits is he breeding for?

Moe picked up a couple of sour diesel clones I acquired but not bred my me.
I do breed though some stuff for high some for terps some for washing.

 

[Zoneshityee]

I have some seeds I can donate for your experiment. They are bred by me, this is the first generation run, I'm trying to get them all to behave a certain way, this set so far seems to be about 3/10 seeds showing desired trait (self topping@3rd node). I'm planning to re-breed one that has desired trait and creating unfeminized version so I can use self topping male and female for later in hopes of having higher consistency... anyway if you would like the feminized seeds, I call it periwinkle slam. Blue dream x purple punch.
Let me know where to ship in dm if you would like

 

[Moe.Red]

I use one as well, started preparing it for use with grow but never finished. Got mine like at 250 :/ mounted it to old laptop screen and got some esp32's, want to put sensors and camera on esps and stream data to pi, which will do all controlling. Just haven't got that far along lol... and let me find some comparative data on the amino, I'll get back 2 u shortly

Fun stuff, lemme know if I can help ya