Fundamentals Of Understanding Cec (cation Exchange Capacity) Of Your Soil

[Ecompost]

Oh God, almost 50 minutes? Can you give a synopsis of why not rock dust? I still have road ass BAD, I can't sit here in one place that long.

Interestingly enough, while I did get in trouble for things as a child, it wasn't for not sitting still. It was for things like refusing to stand or place my right hand over my actual heart for the pledge. I got into SO MUCH trouble for that shit! :p

he doesnt say dont use it, just dont expect much in the first year i think. Its a poor video title and worse waste of 50 minutes imo :-) makes me laugh how he talks about adding microbes, like they aint already there :-) What an earth lives on rock dust? I think John has been smoking too much sarsaparilla :-) Where there is iron ore, there is bacillus subtilus, unless you pour salt everywhere of course :-) Its like peas and carrots a famous man once said.
Does Jon know how many elements are in rock dust, and so how many microbes might be engaged in its conversion to ionic minerals? What is he suggesting? I can assimilate Iron by inducing a irrigation of aconitase protein, just like our friends bacillus subtilus do in the wild. Ergo, i could start activating rock dust in seconds :-)

 

[Ecompost]

I've listened to the first few minutes and it totally makes sense. Where we're going to be living in the high desert the 'soil' is really decomposed granite--sand+rock is what you have. There's probably zero percent organic matter, no clay to speak of until/unless you hit some hardpan down below and so adding rock dust to that mix wouldn't do a thing.

At least it's clearly very high in Ca (as evidenced by the loose, sandy nature) so tightening it up shouldn't be too terribly difficult.

some people think mountains are actually fossilized giant trees and fauna.

 

[Ecompost]

@Purpletrain You may be 100% right, but I would be more interested in the the rock dust for the CEC qualities of it. Isn't chicken grit just granite? I would be a little worried about the levels of heavy elements that some dusts contain. Some levels may be fine for food, but what about smoke? Apples to cannabis?

ensuring an active biology and high humic content will restrict the metal uptake, you might however by better off just looking at some ag zeolites to increase CEC if thats the only reason to use, it. Even this would have Al for example, hard to avoid that. Any clay could have a metal. I find media rich in biology has more than enough CEC :-)

 

[Homesteader]

@Ecompost
Big fan of the zeolite.

The Kiowa people have a great story about how Devils tower was created.

"Eight children were there at play, seven sisters and their brother. Suddenly the boy was struck dumb; he trembled and began to run upon his hands and feet. His fingers became claws, and his body was covered with fur. Directly there was a bear where the boy had been. The sisters were terrified.; they ran and the bear after them. They came to the stump of a great tree, and the tree spoke to them. It bade them climb upon it, and as they did so it began to rise into the air. The bear came to kill them, but they were just beyond its reach. It reared against the tree and scored the bark all around with its claws. The seven sisters were borne into the sky, and they became the stars of the Big Dipper."

http://www.hanksville.org/daniel/stories/Kiowa.html

 

[Ecompost]

Good thread, but take it to the next step. Albrecht, Reams and Tiedjens all came to the same conclusions, (Albrecht after he retired) that Calcium needs to be at 85% of the base saturation. Try it. There is one grower in Cali that does super well at the cup with huge yields and unbelievable quality. He applied 80 lbs of gypsum in 3 cubic meters of a very loose mix, with only a bit of compost. Mainly perlite, etc... That is surely over 90% Ca in the bases!

over here, Ca levels in the soil are at about 2000ppms plus naturally. I would think adding more would be worthless. Lots of soil I have seen and tested is abundant in Ca, this alone must factor in to its overall importance to wider life. I certainly run at 65% saturation here. I havent pushed up higher, I honestly see less value, what is he leaving out via a reduction? I aint disputing the accolades this number has derived for the grower by the way, just curious :-)

 

[Ecompost]

@Ecompost
Big fan of the zeolite.

The Kiowa people have a great story about how Devils tower was created.

"Eight children were there at play, seven sisters and their brother. Suddenly the boy was struck dumb; he trembled and began to run upon his hands and feet. His fingers became claws, and his body was covered with fur. Directly there was a bear where the boy had been. The sisters were terrified.; they ran and the bear after them. They came to the stump of a great tree, and the tree spoke to them. It bade them climb upon it, and as they did so it began to rise into the air. The bear came to kill them, but they were just beyond its reach. It reared against the tree and scored the bark all around with its claws. The seven sisters were borne into the sky, and they became the stars of the Big Dipper."

http://www.hanksville.org/daniel/stories/Kiowa.html

Yeah thats an awesome story too :-) thanks bro

 

[Ecompost]

I have been researching this lately and in particular the sulfer content in gypsum. From my understanding and research, the fear I have with using this much gypsum is having too much sulfer lock out my N.
I was able to achieve 81.5% sat with my mix with only 3 cups of gypsum. I was hoping more people would get their soils tested and post but the thread was kind of a flop in that sense.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/soil-mixes-w-soil-tests.83464/

you should have lots of data online re ag soil tests right? I feel you tho, not many people get soil tested period, let alone share the results
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/soils/health/assessment/?cid=stelprdb1237387

 

[Slownickel]

@Purpletrain You may be 100% right, but I would be more interested in the the rock dust for the CEC qualities of it. Isn't chicken grit just granite? I would be a little worried about the levels of heavy elements that some dusts contain. Some levels may be fine for food, but what about smoke? Apples to cannabis?

Gypsum is rock dust, calcium carbonate is rock dust, rock phosphate is rock dust, the issue is which ones to use. Taking a material like azomite/zeolite (another rock dust) with 12% Al or some other material like it, is suicide. Your yield and quality will never be where you want it. You will always be left thinking why.

Apply good science and good amendments that will give you response is a short term crop. Don't throw the kitchen sink into the mix...

 

[Purpletrain]

Gypsum is rock dust, calcium carbonate is rock dust, rock phosphate is rock dust, the issue is which ones to use. Taking a material like azomite/zeolite (another rock dust) with 12% Al or some other material like it, is suicide. Your yield and quality will never be where you want it. You will always be left thinking why.



Apply good science and good amendments that will give you response is a short term crop. Don't throw the kitchen sink into the mix...

When it comes to Science i let the professionals decide.. and that is apply amendments to your soil that is utilized in the short year crops or what ever

Best thing i ever herd was let your geology decide your biology ,, not the other way around
Seems like people are trying to re invent the wheel ..
Find or make a soil tweak it as per plants needs ( Visual ) and run with it people are forgetting the most important thing
There is no such thing as a perfect soil science is Not Fact its observations of tests performed..
100 percent of the time tests are rigged to produce what the investors want it to be
Todays new growers are all about the science , that is great.
But lack the experience in reading the plants needs
You can have siblings from exact same seed line and show variations of one wanting more or less N , Calcium and so on ...
So really its trial an error .

Lomax you do need to chill big time Cause really i do not care if you piss on your plants or what ever ..
I try to give people other ways to go about things some take my advice and some do not
I keep things simple so simple its to funny

People think only way to add minerals is by raw form , in gardening this is not the case
Again someone came up with this notion of adding rock dust into our soils to re mineralize our soils .. it works but instead of working now when you need it ??? It can take months even years.. and is it really wise to be adding more metals cause lets face it all of them contain quite a bit

Eco you got to stop with these fancy words like Humus :)
finished compost is Humus , decomposed organic matter which of course is rich in minerals and nutrients right ??? so do we need to add anything more ??? like rock dust when lets that apple , oranges, banana peels have minerals in them. that was taken up from the soil and what we put back in after we throw that peel out the window and it falls on the ground it will decompose and
POW soils has minerals again over n over and did i say over again ???

Yup pretty much all the kitchen sink stuff works great
Eat healthy any discarded greens goes into compost bin re mineralizing your soil
Keep decent organic matter that will decompose as the plant grows and your set

Its that simple, to simple really its all i do for my gardens , I do not need to add anything other thenin spring,
Mixture of compost live worms / EWC and sterilized top soil mixed in to existing soil

This when i mixed in soil i could not believe the live worm content TBH i did not bother adding worms there were thousands of them in soil
At the end Truth is, with unstable ph by adding so much of amendments counter attacking each other more or less ???? your CEC is all over the place

Its a balance of all nutrients and minerals in soil to much of this or that will indeed tip the scale
And what we see today plant Deficiencies , or lock outs
You got to love that shit

 

[Slownickel]

Love those sayings..... there are a bunch of them floating around. High pH means high calcium. Nope that one doesn't work either.

The balance is what allows biology to proliferate, most definitely. The idea is to help the biology get more air.
Base distributions are about making air space. And I am sorry, but the science has long been proven. Over and over.

You can download a very good book by Dr. Victor Tiedjens, More Food from Soil Science. Even non scientists will get the message. It is free on the Soilandhealth dot org web library. Lots of other great books there too. Soil biology and everything!

It is easy to criticize what one does not understand. If you don't like the concept, maybe ignore this thread, obviously it irks you. No one is trying to irk or sell anything here. I am an agronomist and a farmer..... the real type, tractors and all. https://goo.gl/1U92jS this is an organic farm, we out produce locals by 2 and 3 times who are conventional. Our sizes and quality are both excellent. No weed pics here.

 

[Purpletrain]

Nothing irks me to the Contrary
people can keep buying there amendments add them blindly and chase there plants all year long mean while others plant and walk away with no need for amendments other then common sense.
30 years ago as a farmer in winter months i worked the rigs from floor hand to derrick hand / Mud man to driller to eventually oil company engineer the Big show  with that played with mud from thinning to floculants de foamer . detergents . worked with suspension properties, Fluid loss, filter cake etc
I played in mud from the time i could crawl lol .
Iet alone what i have played with on the farm from Urea to calcium nitrate, to inhibitors
To actual chemicals you could never get . to pesticides or other insecticides Class 1 - 3 that one would need a license to use .

It does not take a rocket scientist to grow a plant or even understand what the plant need

You want to see stupid growth give plants Calcium nitrate and then look the hell out you better have room cause of the explosive growth rates
So where are we @ ??? M guess is 80 percent of the growers if not 90 percent growing weed do not get there soil tested and if they did ???
they would not even know how to read it or where to start

So again you talk like adding gypsum as its the miracle amendment , if you do not know where your levels are @ what good is it blindly adding it you say calcium should be 85 percent ?? when i could say no it should b in the range of 70 - 80 percent an 10 - 20 percent occupying magnesium .
If its to high then there is not enough room left on the CEC to provide MG and potassium

Bottom line unless you have actual soil tests down is stupid to add things blindly

 

[Homesteader]

I do like having Russian Comfrey to mine your minerals with long tap roots, or using plants like yarrow to increase your plant available copper etc. but I think Im in the wrong thread.

 

[Slownickel]

Nothing irks me to the Contrary
people can keep buying there amendments add them blindly and chase there plants all year long mean while others plant and walk away with no need for amendments other then common sense.
30 years ago as a farmer in winter months i worked the rigs from floor hand to derrick hand / Mud man to driller to eventually oil company engineer the Big show  with that played with mud from thinning to floculants de foamer . detergents . worked with suspension properties, Fluid loss, filter cake etc
I played in mud from the time i could crawl lol .
Iet alone what i have played with on the farm from Urea to calcium nitrate, to inhibitors
To actual chemicals you could never get . to pesticides or other insecticides Class 1 - 3 that one would need a license to use .

It does not take a rocket scientist to grow a plant or even understand what the plant need

You want to see stupid growth give plants Calcium nitrate and then look the hell out you better have room cause of the explosive growth rates
So where are we @ ??? M guess is 80 percent of the growers if not 90 percent growing weed do not get there soil tested and if they did ???
they would not even know how to read it or where to start

So again you talk like adding gypsum as its the miracle amendment , if you do not know where your levels are @ what good is it blindly adding it you say calcium should be 85 percent ?? when i could say no it should b in the range of 70 - 80 percent an 10 - 20 percent occupying magnesium .
If its to high then there is not enough room left on the CEC to provide MG and potassium

Bottom line unless you have actual soil tests down is stupid to add things blindly

The majority of the farmers, especially cannabis farmers, over fertilize greatly. If someone over fertilizes the only chance of fixing it quick is gypsum. That is a quick fix that cannot make problems, even on high Ca soils (which usually are carbonates and not really available due to the soil/water dynamic.) On several forums, many of the best growers have sent in their analysis, and even those applying large quantities of calcium need more. Especially when using the correct soil analysis procedures.... and they have seen the results.

One grower applies 80#s of gypsum per 3 cubic yards of a very barebones mix and has the most amazing production you have ever seen. Yields and quality.

Having farmed for more than 30 years successfully and consulted in more than 24 countries, and being an agronomist, working for multinationals, I can tell you 98% of the time, growers will see response to gypsum. In fact, I have never seen a case where they didn't. Just knocking of 2% to be kind.

On my farm, I have some chalk white soils where the lab using M3 shows 100,000 ppm of calcium and yet there is sodium. Using [email protected] pH, we see less than 2000 ppm of Ca. And again, sodium present in quantities. By definition, where you have high Na, K or Mg, there is not enough Ca.

No one hits 80% Ca naturally, except for a couple of samples we have from Maui.... which explains a lot of things. And even then, he needed a bit more. Look up in the internet "Maui Sugar Cane Failure" I couldn't upload my copy, it is too big.

No one needs that much Mg... some of the best grape farms that I work on have 7 to 8% Mg. Realize that when there is too much Mg, Mg is deficient in the leaves. You as a mudder should know what Mg does in a well. If you need Mg, usually it is due to too much K, Na or lack of P and Ca. You can always spray on Mg Sulfate foliar as Mg is translocatable to the roots. If you really have a Mg problem (deficiency) in the soil, apply sulpomag as it won't react in the soil like Mg Sulfate.

Nice chatting with you. You well drilling types are toughies. LMAO.

 

[Seamaiden]

Maybe I'm unusual in that I invested in the piece of land we've been using, and so I've worked to build the soil over the years we've been here. I know others who do the same thing, as well as plenty of others who use nothing but bagged mixes. But even in that context, I personally have found utility in adding even just some clay (since I'm sitting on heavy red clay, that's what I use) and while my observations aren't necessarily purely objective, there is some objectivism in the observations I make. Or something like that.

In the meantime, for me, yes, CaSO4 *is* one of those miracle rock dusts (Cal-Phos is another one I love, oh, and MicroHume! Godsend). It's why all the old timers out here say start off with applying gypsum. It is known to break up that hard, heavy clay, why reinvent the wheel?

I can also think of many dusts that can provide relatively speedy benefits. It seems the issue has more to do with mindset than facts, I'm sorry to point out. I'm not sure what the debate is really about, but I do find myself wondering how many different soil types and scenarios folks have farmed, I think that really shifts one's viewpoint.

For example, I moved to NorCal from SoCal, Puerto Rican grandparents and mother are the ones who taught me how to garden. In pots, or in places like the Heights or Puerto Rico (Papai ran the family's sugarcane plantation). Not in the mountains, in a place with these events called "seasons." Now my cultivation 'paradigm' is going to undergo a sea change yet again, higher elevation, FAR less precipitation, WIND, and this sand that poses as soil.

Uh no i havent met that youtube guy, I have a college education and took hort, and composting classes at the UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT and met like minded folks gaining success all over organic farms in new england, but ill let the cannabis farmers here at thcfarmer who obviously should be teaching courses at universities keep trying to disuade folkswho have PROVEN RESULTS over 20 years of growing. Tis why ignore the shit. I have the truth in my plots! It's not my place to sit in a cannabis forum trying to convince anyone that they are wrong or do things in a wrong manner..................might be a reason why its so dead here at thcfarmer but idk man i made the mistake of giving my opinion and was met with bullshit and sarcasm. that has NO PLACE in the gardening community.

Forgive me my absences, but I try to keep that sort of behavior at a minimum where I see it. That said, if you have knowledge, I can say that I would love to know what you have to share. I am of a like mind but I haven't taken the education, simply read as much as I can in publications like Acres, USA (sorry, not a huge fan of Mother Earth News, too cursory) rather than High Times. I apologize for the poor behavior you've experienced, and if you see me posting something that's wrong, PLEASE CORRECT ME. Seriously. I don't get mad at anyone but myself when there's an issue of information.

In any event, from what I'm gathering you feel that rock dusts *do* have a place, I'm guessing that you agree with the concepts behind building good soils and creating balance. It's not just all about microbes, or all about organic matter, or all about rock dusts. It's about

you should have lots of data online re ag soil tests right? I feel you tho, not many people get soil tested period, let alone share the results
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/soils/health/assessment/?cid=stelprdb1237387

That's a new one for me. I've been poring through the soil surveys, trying to sort out what they really mean, but I am just not well educated/informed enough.

Love those sayings..... there are a bunch of them floating around. High pH means high calcium. Nope that one doesn't work either.

The balance is what allows biology to proliferate, most definitely. The idea is to help the biology get more air.
Base distributions are about making air space. And I am sorry, but the science has long been proven. Over and over.

You can download a very good book by Dr. Victor Tiedjens, More Food from Soil Science. Even non scientists will get the message. It is free on the Soilandhealth dot org web library. Lots of other great books there too. Soil biology and everything!

It is easy to criticize what one does not understand. If you don't like the concept, maybe ignore this thread, obviously it irks you. No one is trying to irk or sell anything here. I am an agronomist and a farmer..... the real type, tractors and all. https://goo.gl/1U92jS this is an organic farm, we out produce locals by 2 and 3 times who are conventional. Our sizes and quality are both excellent. No weed pics here.

Thank you for that information, I will be making use of it. :)

Mira tus aguacates! I have *never* seen them grown in this manner (I grew up in La Habra Hts, home of the first Haas tree). Y... tienes limones, si? You must be in a much milder zone than I. I'm drooling over the flat land. Can't say I'm not envious right this minute, and if you know what barhi dates are and you're growing them, you have a customer right here. I'm not joking.

 

[Slownickel]

Puertoriqueñita,

Nothing like a good soil analysis to dial in your numbers. Farmed in the DR, Honduras, Guate, CR, and now in Peru the last 15 yrs.. Can't be guessing.

Over time, we have discovered some interesting differences in soil analysis procedures and have been honing in our capabilities of dialing things in even better using Melich3 and Amon Acetate @ pH8.2 to eliminate the false reading that breaking down calcium carbonate will give you.

The first Hass in PR? Really? Haven't been there for years. Used to take the ferry back and from from the DR to PR...

Look for my label on the organic limes and organic avos. River Bottom brand.

These look like Hass but are a Hass selection called Pinkertons. These fotos are at 25 months or so. I will post some news in a couple of days.... Stay tuned.

Rock dusts can make many problems much worse if you don't know what is in them. Azomite and such is full of aluminum for example, nearly 12%. Saw a good friend lose his farm to that garbage.

 

[Purpletrain]

So i am curious if this thread is about CEC so SlowNickel does Gypsum effect soil ph ????

Cause i am understanding it does not
Even though many studies have shown that there is no perfect ratio for cations, some people insist on trying to change the ratio of cations held on the soil with products like gypsum (calcium sulfate).

AGVISE recently conducted a laboratory project looking at the affect gypsum has on soil test levels of calcium, soluble salts, cation ratios, soil pH and CEC. The results of the laboratory project are shown in figures 2 & 3. Some people who sell gypsum claim that it lowers the soil pH dramatically. It is apparent that this is not true, even at rates as high as 36000 lb/a gypsum the soil pH is about the same as the check.

As the rate of gypsum is increased you can see the test level for calcium increases while the level of magnesium, potassium and sodium remain the same (Figure 2).

When gypsum (calcium sulfate) is applied to the soil, it dissolves in the soil solution. Some of the calcium becomes attached to soil particles as part of the cation exchange capacity of the soil. The remaining gypsum stays in the soil solution as dissolved calcium sulfate salt. The soil testing method used by all commercial and University soil testing laboratories picks up the calcium that is held on the soil, as well as the calcium that is dissolved in the soil solution as soluble salts. The calcium in the soil solution is “NOT” held on the soil, and should not be included because it is not held on the soil, but it is included in the common method used by all soil testing laboratories. Because this soil testing method includes the calcium from the soil solution, the test values reported are inflated on the high side. You can see this inflation occurring as the rate of gypsum increases in Figure 2. The calcium test value goes up, but the soil is not holding more calcium, the test is just including the calcium dissolved in the salts in the soil solution. You can see this is true because the salt level increases as the rate of gypsum increases.

The base saturation value for a soil is a calculation that determines the percent each cation makes up of the total cations in the soil. When the percent base saturation for a soil is calculated, the ppm value for calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium are used in the calculation. Since the calcium ppm level keeps increasing as more gypsum is applied, calcium becomes a larger percentage of the total cations. We know that the soil is not holding more calcium, we are just measuring the increasing amount of calcium in the salts of the soil solution.

The Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) of a soil is the ability of a soil to hold the cations calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium. The CEC of a soil is a permanent feature based primarily on soil texture, clay content and organic matter. When gypsum is applied to the soil it does not actually change the CEC of the soil, but it does change the calcium test value determined in the laboratory, which is used to calculate the CEC value for the soil. Because an inflated calcium value is used to calculate the CEC of the soil, the calculated CEC goes up as the gypsum rate increases (Figure 3).

These CEC values are erroneous due to the error caused by including calcium from the salts in the soil solution. The correct CEC of this soil, determined by a special laboratory method that does not include calcium from the salts in the soil solution is 18 meq. The routine method, used by all commercial soil testing labs, did a good job of determining the CEC to be 17, until higher rates of gypsum were applied. That means that you can change the calculated CEC of the soil by adding gypsum, but you are not really changing the ability of the soil to hold cations.

Facts learned from past field research and AGVISE laboratory project:

1. You can achieve high yields on soils with a wide range of cation ratios.
2. You can apply enough gypsum to a soil to change the laboratory test results for calcium, but this does not actually change the CEC of the soil or the amount of each cations actually held on the soil.
3. Even low rates of gypsum over the long term on a poorly drained soil will increase the salt level of the soil. As the soil salt level increases, crop yields will decrease over time.
4. Gypsum does not decrease or increase the soil pH of productive soils
5. It is most important to know the level of each nutrient in the soil. If a nutrient tests in the deficient range, it needs to be applied. The concept of balancing cations is not supported by the facts of the real world.

Remember the number 1 killer for plants is salts :) have a nice day folks think of it as a magic amendment ,, if you like if you think its doing you better then by all mean use it
at the end of the day appears that you can grow nice healthy plants with out it,, like mine :) fist picture salt buiild up its inevitable with gypsuim Cause god forbid sulfate is not a salt

 

[Slownickel]

Gypsum will not change the pH "normally". Why do I say that? When we use it on high Na, the pH does fall a bit as the Na drains out.

There is a lot of investigation denying the use of gypsum. Here is some feedback from the growers stand point.

http://westernfarmpress.com/gypsum-adds-flood-irrigated-almond-crop

http://westernfarmpress.com/essential-amendment-high-quality-gypsum-demands-your-respect

I have fixing farms in more than 24 countries, more than 30 years. So far, every soil that I have tested responds to gypsum. On my own farm, even on 100,000 ppm of calcium in a M3 test, we see response to gypsum.

We can agree to disagree...

 

[Seamaiden]

The first Hass in PR? Really? Haven't been there for years. Used to take the ferry back and from from the DR to PR...

First Haas in La Habra Hts, California, not en PR. :) Estoy buscando para tus limones ahora! (Y, estoy practicando el espanol, no soy capaz de hablando con fluencia.)

 

[Slownickel]

No tengo limones ni palta en estados unidos ahorita.. espera unos meses..... dificil a vender en Cali como Mexico es tan cerca...

 

[Seamaiden]

Yo comprendo. Los mercados en los estados unidos puede ser dificil.

Pero ahora y por aqui, me encanta.