Getting worse can someone help?

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geralds

geralds

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Hey man thanks for checking in! Well I turned down two of the lights and that seemed to help quite a bit. They started perking back up. I also sprayed with Epsom salts and they looked better the next day. However there are still quite a few plants with the deficiency. I’ve been giving 150-200ppms of calmag, and about 100ppms of Epsom salt. Along with canna a b . Total 1.0ec. Twice everyday. It sounds like a lot of calmag to still be having a mag deficiency. I have one plant that is really bad and seems to be getting worse. Ph going in is 6.1-6.2 and runoff is 6.0. Here’s a few more pics
 
Jimster

Jimster

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To my eyes, it looks like the start of overfeeding and the associated lockout that goes with it. When I see the deep ridges on the leaves, it usually points to too much P or K (I haven't figured out which yet!). They look pretty decent but I'd check your PPM if possible. It could be the start of a magnesium issue as well, although a foliar dose of Cal-Mag will tell you quickly.
 
Beachwalker

Beachwalker

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Hey man thanks for checking in! Well I turned down two of the lights and that seemed to help quite a bit. They started perking back up. I also sprayed with Epsom salts and they looked better the next day. However there are still quite a few plants with the deficiency. I’ve been giving 150-200ppms of calmag, and about 100ppms of Epsom salt. Along with canna a b . Total 1.0ec. Twice everyday. It sounds like a lot of calmag to still be having a mag deficiency. I have one plant that is really bad and seems to be getting worse. Ph going in is 6.1-6.2 and runoff is 6.0. Here’s a few more pics
Can I ask how low your temperature gets during dark?
 
geralds

geralds

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Heater kicks on at lights off and stays around 75. Just got a water heater for my water holding tank to keep that at 68-70. I’m checking my feed every time and it’s 500-580 at twice a day with plenty of runoff so idk how the hell salt would be building up.
 
Jimster

Jimster

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The epsom salts does the same thing as the Calmag, without the Calcium. Calmag can actually cause lockout problems if used too much... the Calcium tends to raise the Ph and if it gets too high it can cause lockouts. If you are using tap water, you might be getting enough magnesium from it alone, depending on your water qualities. Lockouts and the asociated Ph problems can be a real bugger to get figured out, since Ph swings can affect the availability of nutrients to the plants... so in addition to deficiencies caused by lockouts directly, deficiencies can also be caused by Ph issues, which can affect the lockout as well. It is a circle of problems that will drive you crazy chasing it down. This is the main reason I use Promix and low nutrient feedings as it avoids the overfeeding, which can cause Ph swings, which can cause lockouts, which can cause you to add more stuff into the mix and confusing things even more.
I hate to recommend things when there are so many possibilities as it is like throwing darts and hoping for a bullseye. My recommendation would be to try to flush out as much as possible to get to a neutral state and then feed a mid strength micro and macro nutrient fertilizer, with the idea being to get the growing medium back to near 6-7 Ph, then adding a small amount of broad spectrum nutrients and see how it responds. At least that is probably what I would do. I'm not too handy with PPM/EC readings and stuff, being old school in my growing philosophy. I've always grown with the "Less is better" school of thought and it has served me well over the decades while still getting good results. Plants take a ridiculously small amount of nutrients and it is way too easy to overfeed.
 
Beachwalker

Beachwalker

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Idk this is only my second grow. Is 580-600ppm too much for plants this size? They’re about a month old from clone.
So I read through and if you have everything dialed in like you say up the feed to 800ppm on one affected plant and observe it; and see what the new growth does

600 ppm is okay but you could go to 800 on plants that size, some would feed even higher
 
geralds

geralds

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i get that rootzone ph directly effects which nutrients can be taken up. What I am confused about is if that I’m checking my runoff and it’s 5.9-6.1 which in theory Is my actual rootzone ph than how could it be locking out nutrients. Unless measuring ph of runoff is not an accurate method.
 
PlumberSoCal

PlumberSoCal

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Idk this is only my second grow. Is 580-600ppm too much for plants this size? They’re about a month old from clone.
I'm with Jimster, plus they're 1 month old clones. I'm using about that with coco on my 2 month olds. One month olds about a 1/6 less.

Here's a pic of the roots of one of my clones from this year.
20191102_114045.jpg

This was grown in a compost box with no other fertilizers. Being a clone no tap root and this one grew for 2.5 months and gave me an oz plus. Not many roots so yeah, on a 1 month old clone that might be a bit high.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Idk coco worth a shit but I have stumbled through some of the issues it can have in my reading over time. If you are inclined to try one plant as @Beachwalker suggested. Up the ppm to 800-850. And stop the cal mag all together. Feed 3 times a day of you can.

I feel like it's a CEC issue and flushing and low ppm can make it worse. There is something I cant remember that is used to help recondition the coco but I have no idea about it. Just figured I would comment on some things I've read. By no means am I saying this IS the cause.
 
Jimster

Jimster

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i get that rootzone ph directly effects which nutrients can be taken up. What I am confused about is if that I’m checking my runoff and it’s 5.9-6.1 which in theory Is my actual rootzone ph than how could it be locking out nutrients. Unless measuring ph of runoff is not an accurate method.
Checking the runoff is a decent way to get a general idea of the soil Ph, although there are several factors that could skew the results. If you have a lot of nutrients in your medium, it can cause acidic readings that are more from the fertilizers than the actual soils. Differing levels of moisture in your growing container can also give inaccurate readings since nutes tend to concentrate at the bottom of the containers (if you are using non hydro). A slurry test is the preferred Ph measuring method, with samples taken from the root zone if possible. There is a phenom that combines the nitrogen source along with colder temps that induce the roots to affect the soil Ph directly, but unless you are seeing temps in the 40s, I doubt that it applies to your situation. I'm somewhat suprised that your Ph is so low, however, with the amount of Cal-Mag that you are using.
 
Moshmen

Moshmen

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The epsom salts does the same thing as the Calmag, without the Calcium. Calmag can actually cause lockout problems if used too much... the Calcium tends to raise the Ph and if it gets too high it can cause lockouts. If you are using tap water, you might be getting enough magnesium from it alone, depending on your water qualities. Lockouts and the asociated Ph problems can be a real bugger to get figured out, since Ph swings can affect the availability of nutrients to the plants... so in addition to deficiencies caused by lockouts directly, deficiencies can also be caused by Ph issues, which can affect the lockout as well. It is a circle of problems that will drive you crazy chasing it down. This is the main reason I use Promix and low nutrient feedings as it avoids the overfeeding, which can cause Ph swings, which can cause lockouts, which can cause you to add more stuff into the mix and confusing things even more.
I hate to recommend things when there are so many possibilities as it is like throwing darts and hoping for a bullseye. My recommendation would be to try to flush out as much as possible to get to a neutral state and then feed a mid strength micro and macro nutrient fertilizer, with the idea being to get the growing medium back to near 6-7 Ph, then adding a small amount of broad spectrum nutrients and see how it responds. At least that is probably what I would do. I'm not too handy with PPM/EC readings and stuff, being old school in my growing philosophy. I've always grown with the "Less is better" school of thought and it has served me well over the decades while still getting good results. Plants take a ridiculously small amount of nutrients and it is way too easy to overfeed.
I agree but I have a question Do you tho k the big LED in use requires the plant to use more calcium and or magnesium than normal lighting ?
 
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