Grow Room Electrical

[bibbles]

hiboy gave me permission to help you guys if he was busy. Sounds like you're gaining ground on figuring this out. Just a couple of thoughts..
After you get the 50 amp installed in your panel and run that to a new subpanel..you'll use a 30 amp double pole for your lights. That leaves room for either one 20amp double pole or 2 15amp 120v breakers. That will be up to your needs per appliance. There is no code for 30 amp 120v in a residential dwelling...it's either a 15 or 20 amp. I think the 20 amp double pole..being the better choice. Just make sure to be under your 80% usage rule..and if you use the 2 120volt breakers that they are in fact on different phases (i.e. stacked together...as it may be).
When I move old wiring around..especially in a panel, I try to disturb as little as possible, as old wiring has more risk of the sheath splitting or cracking. Best to not "jumble" around too much in there. Your panel should be balanced as is...Hiboy just wants to be sure that by moving everything up on the one side doesn't put it out of balance...as you know every other breaker on each side of your panel is at different phases...connected to different buses.
Hopefully the big guy will pop in to help confirm.

That's not how my breaker box is set up, nor how I was planning to wire things; allow me to expand!

First, my box has phase A on the left, and phase B on the right (two horizontal "stacks"), with only two places for 240v breakers (in the middle, straddling both sides, top or bottom); two 120v breakers next to each other, vertically or horizontally, on either side will be on the same phase... sort of like this: [:::|:::]

Second, I wasn't going to bother with a sub panel, and my breakers are "Stab-Lok"; there is definitely a 30amp 120v breaker (it's in front of me right now), which I might use along side a 30amp 240v breaker (also in front of me) as I have three single width spots left, and those would run to their respective outlets/controllers; alternatively, I would be running a 50amp 240v breaker (also in front of me) into the room, using phase A plus the neutral for some 120v outlets (AC1+fans), phase B plus the neutral for some other 120v outlets (AC2+fans), with both phases and the neutral terminating in, say, a Titan Controls Helios 3, or a simple, heavy-duty timer, then 240v outlets.

Assuming I'm correct about the later (single 50amp circuit), I'll have a 20amp load across both phase A and B from the lights, an additional 12amps (32amps total) on phase A from AC1, an additional 12amps (32amps total) on phase B from AC2, and an additional 4-6amps from fans divided between phase A and/or phase B, putting me at 36-38amps max on a given phase (just under 80% of 50amps).

The former (two 30amp circuits) is no problem at all from what I can see, but if I can eliminate the cost and effort of running two circuits I'll be dancing, and I mean like a chick on the bar after six shots of tequila, haha.

EDIT: I'm rounding everything up, FYI, just to be safe; I've already accounted for and balanced the rest of the place.

 

[Natural]

Got ya..these old panels are set up a little different. I had to look this one up.
It sounds like you have the right idea about balancing the loads with that type of bus. I also know you've put a lot of time, effort, and money into this so far. I would like to put a couple things in your ear. Have you considered totaling your max load when everything on that could possibly run? I'm thinking, even if you have unused breakers present, that you might be pretty full; considering electric dryer, stove, heat, a/c. I think you should be aware of your max pull at all times. Been doing some reading..and I'm assuming you're aware that most of the stablok FPE's, have or should have been replaced. Seems the breakers only work 60% of the time when they're over-loaded. What would be the implication of up-grading your panel altogether?..is it possible?

 

[hiboy]

panel upgrade is the hot idea.
what Natural was saying earlier that you don't want to put any outlets on a breaker higher than a 20 amp it is against code. but if you put in a single 20 amp for your air conditioner and the remaining went to the plugs that would work
I don't know off hand what the highest stablock breaker you can put in there is ideally you would want a 70 amp or so to a new sub panel for optimum safety
hb

 

[bibbles]

I was not aware of the issues with Stab-Lok, but it's probably safe to assume that new breakers from Home Depot won't have the same issue, yes (the ones I mentioned, and possibly replacements for the existing breakers)? Also, this is an apartment, so I don't think a new panel is really an option (at least not one I really wanna take); however, I can pretty much do anything I like so long as no one else complains, the only "inspection" in six years was a cursory glance around after a couple windows were upgraded.

Code or not, if the 50amp breaker will work, I can run it; I've checked the rest of the electrical for faults, the only issue was that two circuits (living room/bedroom) which should have been separate were spliced together, and one of those circuits is what I plan on replacing.

As for my total load, the washer/dryer is shared (i.e. not on my panel), and the stove is gas, meaning my only large draws come from the existing, through-wall AC (isolated 240v 20amp circuit, tested @ 5amps cooling, forgot to check heating but now realize that'll draw more), a garbage disposal (isolated 120v 15amp circuit, rated at 1/2hp), a toaster oven and microwave I bought when moving away from home (never use either, CraigsListing that shit), a 1,000w blender I'd like to use more than I currently do (but don't need to), an iMac (can't find the power usage for this model [i3], but the more powerful version [i5] is rated at 241w max), and a projector (173w + 150w sound), though I'd like to replace it with a TV (no idea what TVs draw).

EDIT: Oh, and a refrigerator, obviously, but that's like 300-600 watts @ 120v? Like I said, I can forgo using the blender, even the existing AC/heater, and almost all my lights are like 15-20w CFLs.

 

[hiboy]

Run the 50 to a small sub. Sounds like the best route for u. U can always run that blender when lites out:joyful:
hb

 

[bibbles]

Run the 50 to a small sub. Sounds like the best route for u. U can always run that blender when lites out:joyful:
hb

Why the sub and not just straight to my outlets/controllers? I'm smart, but new to this aspect of things, and it's the one facet I'm failing to understand; honestly, it seems like an issue of convenience, and the main box is just four feet from the room itself. :/

 

[Natural]

I've replaced a few stabloks on regular split bus panels before. Besides issues with the actual breaker itself, the panel is a poor design. They tend to rock more and be loose..I've seen black residue on them before..obvious shorting. Hiboy is on the money buddy...a sub will give you the protection of a better breaker..should you have a problem. I'm really liking the effort behind all of this on your part...seen people doing crazy stuff before.

 

[bibbles]

I've replaced a few stabloks on regular split bus panels before. Besides issues with the actual breaker itself, the panel is a poor design. They tend to rock more and be loose..I've seen black residue on them before..obvious shorting. Hiboy is on the money buddy...a sub will give you the protection of a better breaker..should you have a problem. I'm really liking the effort behind all of this on your part...seen people doing crazy stuff before.

This panel definitely moves when removing/installing breakers, but aside from some dust everything is surprisingly clean, no corrosion; as for crazy things, at on point I had an extension cord running the 'fridge circuit through the wet-wall access panel, through the bathroom under the built-in bathtub, and out through the bedroom wall to compensate for the aforementioned splice. ;)

I figure if I'm gonna change anything, I'm going to start with a solid foundation, I'm not starting or buying anything until the electrical is on point; I'd rather spend a couple months planning than a couple months mitigating disaster... that said, if I run 50amps to a sub, then 2x15@120 for the ACs, and 1x30@240 for the lights, I'm still going to be relying on the 50 to save me, since the sub will trip at a higher draw, right?

 

[bibbles]

Er, that is, 15+15+30=60>50, I do see the extra protection if, say, one of the 15amp circuits were to hit 16 and trip, but the total draw could hit 55 without tripping the sub (and I didn't see 70amp Stab-Loks, but the meter says 50 max per circuit, and I'm gonna play by the rules).

 

[Natural]

This panel definitely moves when removing/installing breakers, but aside from some dust everything is surprisingly clean, no corrosion; as for crazy things, at on point I had an extension cord running the 'fridge circuit through the wet-wall access panel, through the bathroom under the built-in bathtub, and out through the bedroom wall to compensate for the aforementioned splice. ;)

I figure if I'm gonna change anything, I'm going to start with a solid foundation, I'm not starting or buying anything until the electrical is on point; I'd rather spend a couple months planning than a couple months mitigating disaster... that said, if I run 50amps to a sub, then 2x15@120 for the ACs, and 1x30@240 for the lights, I'm still going to be relying on the 50 to save me, since the sub will trip at a higher draw, right?

My expertise is in remodeling and I don't have a E's license..but I'm sure the panel alone is a write-up if seen by the right person. If you've got free range of the property..a new panel would be very nice. With that said, the little breakers e.g. 30amp 240v..2 15 amp 120's in the proposed sub would trip way before the 50 stablok @ your panel. Most likely it would trip an individual breaker for a certain appliance e.g. your a/c shorts out..that would trip the 15 amp only.

 

[bibbles]

Seems like we're on the same page, haha, fair enough!

but I'm sure the panel alone is a write-up if seen by the right person.

The panel is the least of his worries if push comes to shove, and I've documented everything; at first I was just being naive, on my own for the first time, and having reasons not to return home I didn't ask for help (but took pictures); more recently, I was considering moving out (and possibly a law suit), but the new place was decidedly against growing (friend asked, but it was a relative's property, so fair enough); now, I can see the circumstantial advantage of a negligent landlord, I've learned to fix just about everything here anyway, and the bathroom, the one really serious issue, is being completely redone in tile and awesome next week, so... Yahtzee!

It's quite interesting how our perspective changes with experience; anyway, I'm going to look into the cost of a sub panel, et al, and I'm going to put "new main panel" at the top of the upgrade list; hell, the panel is on the obverse side of the bathroom wall, the interior of which is being torn out when the bathroom is redone, I might be able to work that in based on the word of a concerned friend, who's an electrician... or at least get the landlord to pay for the cost of parts, and pay for the electrician myself (i.e. do it myself).

Don't worry, I'm not just going to jump into this myself if it does go down that way.

 

[Natural]

This panel definitely moves when removing/installing breakers, but aside from some dust everything is surprisingly clean, no corrosion;

Just to be more clear..when I say, "they tend to rock more and be loose"...I'm speaking of the actual fit of the breaker itself to the bus and not the whole panel. Wasn't sure if I had clear enough language. Also, seen the breakers crack..besides the loose fit. I'm surprised your diy store has them..sometimes they need to be hunted down from electrical supply houses.

You seem to be on top of things and willing to learn and seem to be thorough. Going over old work is like solving a puzzle...fun and scary at the same time. I'm sure you will fair very well.
But as a side note, I tend to view any electrical service as a fire hazard in general. That goes without problem products or practices. Just keep that in mind, and it will serve you well.

 

[bibbles]

Just to be more clear..when I say, "they tend to rock more and be loose"...I'm speaking of the actual fit of the breaker itself to the bus and not the whole panel. Wasn't sure if I had clear enough language. Also, seen the breakers crack..besides the loose fit. I'm surprised your diy store has them..sometimes they need to be hunted down from electrical supply houses.

You seem to be on top of things and willing to learn and seem to be thorough. Going over old work is like solving a puzzle...fun and scary at the same time. I'm sure you will fair very well.
But as a side note, I tend to view any electrical service as a fire hazard in general. That goes without problem products or practices. Just keep that in mind, and it will serve you well.

Ah, there is one spot like this, but the faceplate seems to keep them all in place; what I meant is that the breakers, as a group, rock back and forth within the box itself when pressure is applied; I have no idea if this is normal (definitely unsettling), we had fuses at my mom's place. :/

 

[Natural]

Ah, there is one spot like this, but the faceplate seems to keep them all in place; what I meant is that the breakers, as a group, rock back and forth within the box itself when pressure is applied; I have no idea if this is normal (definitely unsettling), we had fuses at my mom's place. :/

ya that's the poor design shining through..lol. Fuses huh?...they work..hell I might choose them over what you're dealing with. My grandfather was a master electrician besides many other talents..but I grew up with a father who would stick pennies in place of fuses...it's no wonder I turned out so freakin anal. Have you ever seen actual knob and tube wiring..now that's some scary shit!

 

[bibbles]

Hah! Well, you know what they say, "it skips a generation"; my grandfather "retired" to teach at Dartmouth and Harvard, my mother thought having me at 20, on welfare, with a man addicted to heroine, was a great idea.

 

[hiboy]

Why the sub and not just straight to my outlets/controllers? I'm smart, but new to this aspect of things, and it's the one facet I'm failing to understand; honestly, it seems like an issue of convenience, and the main box is just four feet from the room itself. :/

Its awesome having a new modern sub for ur grow. U can put ur 120v breakers as well as ur 240v for proper sizing. If u have the space for multiple n the main that will still work
hb

 

[bibbles]

Yeah, Natural sold me on setting one up, if only because I can put the ACs on separate breakers, in addition to a separate breaker for the lights, and probably a third for fans and what not; I'll keep everything at or under 80% of the breaker feeding the sub, but the idea that one AC having issues won't take out the other is something I was excited about in the first place, so... now all I need to do is figure out the controller/ballast situation, and placement thereof.

 

[bibbles]

A fourth** for fans and what not.

 

[inthefire]

Very helpful informative info thanks

 

[Oldmanstoner]

Okay a question that might already be answered but, I have a 200 amp box in this place an want to use the dryer plug that has two 30 amps pushing the 240 dryer wall plug. Didn't look till I started an realize that the outlet I have gotten to match up with the power strip that comes from the ballast a 1k magnetic ballast is rated only for 20 amps. Now the wire hooking to the dryer plugin is braided an looks to be #6 wire, pretty thick stuff an no good way of hooking it to the outlet that matches up with the ballast wire. Can I cut off the male plug end an put one that would match up with the dryer wall plug? The ballast should only pull what it needs correct at least that is the way it is with 120 never hooked ballast up to a 240. Thanks for any assistance you can give me with this plus can I find a double female connector instead of a single like HD or Lowes has for 240 wall plugs or do I need to go another way?