Help! Nutrient Issue Diagnosis Needed?

[Aqua Man]

I know in the US our labeling is different. So anything in the label is whats available right away for the plant the rest comes frome the breakdown from the microbes.

The npk on the labels in the us is what is available right away

The npk for international labeling is different most have laws that the total amount in mix is displayed o the label....with that said you can look at US labels and that will tell you what is available right away to the plants. Proportionately the microbes might be only breaking down 30% at most....thats how i understand it. Am i missing something aquaman?

Nope your pretty right and each source of nutrients are different so different forms of calcium have different % of available Ca. Then the rest will need to be broken down into an available form. This is partly why microbes are beneficial in all grows, synthetic and organic and why things like humic and fulvic acid also. Then the PH also has an affect on availability by changing the forms... CEC, temp... the list goes on when it comes to availability not just microbes.

 

[Flexnerb]

Wha?

That's just not true about microbes. Salinity does impact them. You do realize ALL nutrients need to be in ionic form for plants to uptake them right? This mean they are ALL in salt form. A plant CANNOT uptake nutrients in organic form. The only difference is how they are broken down. One is an organic process generally bacteria that produce enzymes and these enzymes break them down into IONIC SALTS. Synthetic is done with varying methods some include the use of synthetic enzymes.

How exactly do these nutrients just lose tgier charge? Or are you referring to the positive and negative charges of the ions. Thus is how a plant take up nutrients by exchanging ions also how a soil holds onto them.

In order for nutes to be broken down they need to be processed by microbes... it doesn't just happen in 1-3 days unless you have those. And in 1-3 days what are they broken down into????? Ionic salts

Myco aids with some nutrients but a plant does NOT need them. The plants takes up nutrients by ion exchange and passive uptake.

How the hell do synthetic nutrients dry out microbes? I think you are think of salts in the wrong way... you are thinking sodium which is a salt but not all salts are sodium.

I'm not sure if biobizz is organic or not... organically derived maybe? Meaning they are salts already.

Ionic salts are what the plant uptakes..no! Lol...then why are the centers of my stock discolored? Molases thats why.

Protonation is when molecules or atoms whichever lose their electrical charge. I thought..lol the elements fall off their particle sites becaise they protonated or lost their charge. Once a molocule is protonated and it loses its charge how does one regain this? I think the rhiozphere is mucked with when you add syhthetics. Plants just look more natural when given organics too...when i got into the thought of organic pot growing the rev from skunk mag is where i got most of my info. Not saying hes a know it all guru of organics. I think he said synthetics dry out microbes. You got any videos under microscope of microlife given syn's and their reaction to it. Studies idga damn about as muspch id love to get a micro scope and see for myself if and how they are afflicted. So hes where i got tthe no synthetics in orgsnics and that salts dry out microbes...its been 8 years since i bought a skunk mag..lol

Bio bizz is a pretty good nute. Best vinasse based nute ive found to date. Gotta supplement a little with other things but its nothing serious.

Edit...doh! The molases discoloration is prolly brought in from the color being attatched to salts..lol nvm

 

[MIMedGrower]

Plants dont take up molasses and there are certain ppm thresholds for different nutrients and elements before damage to microbes may occur.


example: chlorine. Up to 4 ppm is completely safe and plants actually can use that much as a nutrient.

why does everything have to be an either/ or proposition? The answer rarely is yes or no.

 

[Aqua Man]

Dude idk where that info is coming from but it's hogwash. Like I said organic and synthetic mean nothing to a plant... nitrate is a nitrate... sulfur is sulfur... what changes is the form.... and it's availability.

Some organic info.

What organic fertilizers mean to plants and soil

Improved soil structure, a season-long supply of nutrients, and an increased water-holding capacity are just some of the benefits of using organic fertilizers.

www.canr.msu.edu

Ion info for ya.

Salt (chemistry) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And this covers pretty much our whole convo... explain anion and cation. Which I have no idea what you taking about in your lose their charge but assume this is it.

Synthetic vs. Organic Nutrients for Cannabis - RX Green Technologies

What's the difference between synthetic or organic nutrients for cannabis? Read out technical paper for Rx Green's study on liquid organic nutes for cannabis.

www.rxgreentechnologies.com

 

[Aqua Man]

I mean IMO someone said it best the other day. Organics is like a religion... no matter what actual scientific evidence there is... you cannot change someone beliefs. That's not to say that one day science proves organic superior because science changes daily as we learn but based on my knowledge in terms of the actual nutrients absorbed by the plants there is no difference other than how they were formed... in the end they are the same.

Now that's not saying I don't believe there are benefits to organics because I absolutely do. Just not so much as they are generally being portrayed.

 

[Flexnerb]

Plants dont take up molasses and there are certain ppm thresholds for different nutrients and elements before damage to microbes may occur.


example: chlorine. Up to 4 ppm is completely safe and plants actually can use that much as a nutrient.

why does everything have to be an either/ or proposition? The answer rarely is yes or no.

Well ive read a chlorine study cant remember where who when..but they pppm'd water to 60 wtpith chlorine and it just minamally damaged the top inch or two. It did little to no damage to microlife. This was outdoors now...were are talking indoors in this thread. Wonder how long it takes chlorine to breakdown in the best indoor organic growers' gardens?

Chlorine has to be in its free ionic form natural form not chemically made for maximum absorbtion and utilization without dehydrating the plant. Chlorine in city water will dry plant cells out for sure. Im pretty sure plants cant take up organic and synthetic nutrients and process them internally at the same time! Ive read this in a plant physiology book. I guees i could go re read it. I got it in Pdf form plus like 4 different books on the subject. Very little read though. Im no bookworm

The molases comment originaly stated was mistated. The coloration of the inner stalk would be comparabke to food coloring in our mouth stomach and you know where else after that. Lol...

 

[MIMedGrower]

Well ive read a chlorine study cant remember where who when..but they pppm'd water to 60 wtpith chlorine and it just minamally damaged the top inch or two. It did little to no damage to microlife. This was outdoors now...were are talking indoors in this thread. Wonder how long it takes chlorine to breakdown in the best indoor organic growers' gardens?

Chlorine has to be in its free ionic form natural form not chemically made for maximum absorbtion and utilization without dehydrating the plant. Chlorine in city water will dry plant cells out for sure. Im pretty sure plants cant take up organic and synthetic nutrients and process them internally at the same time! Ive read this in a plant physiology book. I guees i could go re read it. I got it in Pdf form plus like 4 different books on the subject. Very little read though. Im no bookworm

The molases comment originaly stated was mistated. The coloration of the inner stalk would be comparabke to food coloring in our mouth stomach and you know where else after that. Lol...

all this is mis-information. Sorry Im a bookworm.

 

[Flexnerb]

I mean IMO someone said it best the other day. Organics is like a religion... no matter what actual scientific evidence there is... you cannot change someone beliefs. That's not to say that one day science proves organic superior because science changes daily as we learn but based on my knowledge in terms of the actual nutrients absorbed by the plants there is no difference other than how they were formed... in the end they are the same.

Now that's not saying I don't believe there are benefits to organics because I absolutely do. Just not so much as they are generally being portrayed.

Plants have to change internal physiological processes to breakdown and utilize molocules. If its an organically derived molocule versus a synthetic one it will breakdown easier. If its bioavailable its abrorbed immediately is how i have understood it for years....im woprong...synthetic and organic molocules are the same... i'd have to disagree. Unless nute formulas have changes from 10 years ago. Thats when i bought my last syn nute...lol..never again! There not the same

 

[Flexnerb]

all this is mis-information. Sorry Im a bookworm.

It was a uni study not mis info..lol. 60ppm did little to no affect to the soil life u can argue if you'd like i didnt believe it either til i read it.

 

[Aqua Man]

Plants have to change internal physiological processes to breakdown and utilize molocules. If its an organically derived molocule versus a synthetic one it will breakdown easier. If its bioavailable its abrorbed immediately is how i have understood it for years....im woprong...synthetic and organic molocules are the same... i'd have to disagree. Unless nute formulas have changes from 10 years ago. Thats when i bought my last syn nute...lol..never again! There not the same

You don't get it it.... they are not the same... but once they are broken down... they ARE the same. And a plant cannot uptake nutrients in organic form.... they need to be broken down first.


Have you read any of the links I posted? Or did I hit the nail on the head with the religion thing?

 

[Aqua Man]

It was a uni study not mis info..lol. 60ppm did little to no affect to the soil life u can argue if you'd like i didnt believe it either til i read it.

60ppm? Drinking water limits are 4 ppm... dam. But I think there is more to this... like a lengthy time period given to see if they would repopulate and they will. UT I can promise if you saturated the ground with 60ppm chlorinated water it would all but wipe out most bacteria and other.... yeah it reacts and is neutralized eventually but 1-4ppm is enough to keep our drinking water safe from them.

 

[Aqua Man]

Plants have to change internal physiological processes to breakdown and utilize molocules. If its an organically derived molocule versus a synthetic one it will breakdown easier. If its bioavailable its abrorbed immediately is how i have understood it for years....im woprong...synthetic and organic molocules are the same... i'd have to disagree. Unless nute formulas have changes from 10 years ago. Thats when i bought my last syn nute...lol..never again! There not the same

Can you please link me where you are getting this info? Or is it just being made up as you go? I really trying to understand where this is coming from because it just doesn't make any sense.

Can you please anyone on the internet or book or statement that shows an organically derived molecule is different than a syntheticly derived molocule... in term of nutrients. Say nitrate for eg. No3 what is the organic form of this and how is it different? It's not its No3

 

[Flexnerb]

Can you please link me where you are getting this info? Or is it just being made up as you go? I really trying to understand where this is coming from because it just doesn't make any sense.

Can you please anyone on the internet or book or statement that shows an organically derived molecule is different than a syntheticly derived molocule... in term of nutrients. Say nitrate for eg. No3 what is the organic form of this and how is it different? It's not its No3

This is how i understood things learning to grow throughout the years reading on the net.

Just think do you want oil industry vitamins or plant based? There the same molocule why not? Sorry wouldnt put oil industry vitamins in my body..lol

Take my word for it. Still looking for the 60ppm study. It could have been 40ppm too.

How Tap Water affects Soil Microbes – CSU | Dude Grows Archive

www.dudegrows.com

 

[Aqua Man]

This is how i understood things learning to grow throughout the years reading on the net.

Just think do you want oil industry vitamins or plant based? There the same molocule why not? Sorry wouldnt put oil industry vitamins in my body..lol

Take my word for it. Still looking for the 60ppm study. It could have been 40ppm too.

How Tap Water affects Soil Microbes – CSU | Dude Grows Archive

www.dudegrows.com

To kill everything 6" deep... and this is outdoor...very far from what you had claimed.

I agree chlorine is not that big of an issue unless using in teas I wouldn't even worry.

Like I said it's a religion... I was asking for facts not opinions and when you have none you resort to comparisons.

In fact oth organic and synthetic can be severely contaminated.

You look up your earth juice and see the levels of arsnic and cadmium in it yet? If not please do so then come back and tell me organic is always cleaner.

 

[Flexnerb]

Why does org erb taste better than synth? If the molocules are the same shouldnt flavor be the same?

 

[Flexnerb]

To kill everything 6" deep... and this is outdoor...very far from what you had claimed.

I agree chlorine is not that big of an issue unless using in teas I wouldn't even worry.

Like I said it's a religion... I was asking for facts not opinions and when you have none you resort to comparisons.

In fact oth organic and synthetic can be severely contaminated.

You look up your earth juice and see the levels of arsnic and cadmium in it yet? If not please do so then come back and tell me organic is always cleaner.

Im not a preacher dude...lol the 40 or 60ppm study is what it is...chlorine doesnt kill bennies like folks think....

I dont have atomic microscope either. Im sure if we looked at every detail under serious magnification we would see that in synth(depending what resources and methods used) will produce differences in the two forms of molocules.

Do they have an atomic microscope? Or a viewing device to prove they are the same molocules?
Are the bonds peptic, heptic, etc. The same in synth vs org? These are ?'s id like answers to..

 

[Aqua Man]

Why does org erb taste better than synth? If the molocules are the same shouldnt flavor be the same?

Bit does it or do you think it does?

 

[Aqua Man]

Im not a preacher dude...lol the 40 or 60ppm study is what it is...chlorine doesnt kill bennies like folks think....

I dont have atomic microscope either. Im sure if we looked at every detail under serious magnification we would see that in synth(depending what resources and methods used) will produce differences in the two forms of molocules.

Do they have an atomic microscope? Or a viewing device to prove they are the same molocules?
Are the bonds peptic, heptic, etc. The same in synth vs org? These are ?'s id like answers to..

Man you need to go read there is plenty of proof out there and ask any botanist... the info in the link I gave you is accurate and I'm better you would rather turn a blind eye than read anything that doesn't support your views or claims...


I really need to stop getting involved in organic talks... like telling a preacher there is no God.... should just know how it ends and leave it at that.

 

[Aqua Man]

I'm really not one bit against organics... I has benefits... but the magic beans that somehow the nutrients when taken up by the plant are different is just wrong.... do they provide other benefits sure.... but the notion that they are somehow used differently by plants is absolutely false and I cannot agree with.

 

[Flexnerb]

Lol...im sure theres an ultimate creator of the universe..no god! I used to work with an atheist who said atheism isnt a religon....i laughed so hard....how can snyone say there isnt a god...you wouldnt know dead or alive