HELP! Problem is spreading! K deficiency?

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Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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I thought I had a K deficiency. Changed the water in RDWC 3 days ago with more K. Problem is spreading nevertheless. First 2 photos is same leaf, 3 days apart. It has spread to multiple plants by now.

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the tank that feeds the RDWC is only 0.4 and has fed 60L into the system by now, so EC should have been dropping in the last 3 days. pH decreased from 6.3 to 5.9. So I know something is definitely wrong….
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Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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So something went wrong. Same leaf that’s 3 days apart are the first and last photo
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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Nutrients are Flora Nova tripart series. I had some N tox in beginning so I had given less grow part (also contains a lot of K). But then saw that I had K deficiency, so changed water again with more grow part but the problem is getting worse. I also added pro-bloom and Hydroguard. Tripart in last waterchange was 1:1:3. Now I make new with recommended 1:2:3 ratio (grow:micro:bloom)

EC, like described above is veing stable in RDWC at 0.9EC but should be decreasing because tank that feeds RDWC is only 0.4 and already gave 60L (RDWC is 160L)
 
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growsince79

growsince79

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Nutrients are Flora Nova tripart series. I had some N tox in beginning so I had given less grow part (also contains a lot of K). But then saw that I had K deficiency, so changed water again with more grow part but the problem is getting worse. I also added pro-bloom and Hydroguard. Tripart in last waterchange was 1:1:3. Now I make new with recommended 1:2:3 ratio (grow:micro:bloom)

EC, like described above is veing stable in RDWC at 0.9EC but should be decreasing because tank that feeds RDWC is only 0.4 and already gave 60L (RDWC is 160L)
That doesn't sound like enough. I always ran hydro around 1.6-1.8 idk about dwc...
 
tobh

tobh

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your EC is on point, I suspect it's pH issue, or a root issue. Have you looked at the roots? I would say try to get that pH down to 5.5. We need more details as well about water source, mixing process, etc.
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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That doesn't sound like enough. I always ran hydro around 1.6-1.8 idk about dwc...
They ate from 1.1 a couple of weeks ago. They went to 0.9 in a week. While the tank fed the RDWC a whole new 160L at 1.1. Then I had nute burn and EC increased from 1.0 to 1.1 again so I changed the water. This was 2 water changes ago. Have been doing it at 0.8-0.9 since. I don’t see how increasing EC would be good if EC already increases at 0.9…
 
GanjaFarmer24

GanjaFarmer24

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How do the lower leaves look, deficiencies will sometimes hit those first/worst. Do you have a temp monitor in your res?
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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your EC is on point, I suspect it's pH issue, or a root issue. Have you looked at the roots? I would say try to get that pH down to 5.5. We need more details as well about water source, mixing process, etc.
My pen was off a week ago. Had accidentally been keeping my water at 5.5 EC till then for I guess a week.
Could it be that my airpump isn’t strong enough? That that causes this?

some extra info:
Air temp: 19C-30C
Watertemp: 19C (have chiller)
Humidity: 40%-55% (can’t get it lower, even with dehumidifier)
Day 36 of flower atm

these were my roots the 22th December. Will try to have a look again tomorrow when lights go back on, but it isn’t easy. Plants are big and I can barely lift them up with the net.

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Water is 80% RO, 20% tap. Tap water is at 0.8EC. My latest water change I gave for 260L, 75ml calmag (half recommended dose. 6%Nitrogen, 5%Cal and 12%Mag), let it rest in water for a while, then added 120ml of micro part (5-0-1), 100ml of grow (3-1-6) and 270ml of bloom (0-5-4). So that’s roughly 1:1:3 (grow:micro:bloom) of the tripart with a little less grow because I already added calmag (grow contains N and Cal). The water before that had no grow in it because I was having N toxicity. Then branches were starting to fall over and I was having the problem of the photo’s showing up. So I changed the water asap with grow. But it didn’t help.

after adding calmag and the tripart, I add pro-bloom and then pH it. And then I add Hydroguard

current water I’m mixing for next change has the bottle recommended dose of tripart 1:2:3 for flower. And half recommended dose of calmag.
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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How do the lower leaves look, deficiencies will sometimes hit those first/worst. Do you have a temp monitor in your res?
I had nute burn on the lower leafs I think. That’s why EC is so low. This was the first thing to come up. Altho it does seem like to be a different problem. The current problem of the original post are orange spots and edges that burn. And the biggest fan leafs are effected.

some photos of lower leafs
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tobh

tobh

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are there any foul smells in the solution?? are those roots slimy?

the coloration might either be the roots being dyed by the nutrients or root rot if there's a swampy smell and they're slimy.

Your other parameters look on point but you're correct if EC is going up even at 0.9, they're not eating something that is being provided. They're still drinking though so that's good. The ratios seems reasonable as well for what you're feeding.

My other concern is potential pests. Some of that damage resembles bug bites, have you confirmed you don't have an infestation of some type?
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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are there any foul smells in the solution?? are those roots slimy?

the coloration might either be the roots being dyed by the nutrients or root rot if there's a swampy smell and they're slimy.

Your other parameters look on point but you're correct if EC is going up even at 0.9, they're not eating something that is being provided. They're still drinking though so that's good. The ratios seems reasonable as well for what you're feeding.

My other concern is potential pests. Some of that damage resembles bug bites, have you confirmed you don't have an infestation of some type?
The roots were firm. Not slimy at all. Brown color should be because of the nutrients. Could EC be rising because of bacteria? Hydroguard add 0.2-0.3EC, so I wouldn't be surprised if bacteria multiplying increases EC.

What photo do you see bite marks? I have had spider mites in the beginning. I knew my clones had them because the guy I get them from has an infestation. I added double of the recommend dose of phyto-mutes. Did it twice, to be sure. Never had any spider mite symptoms since then (week 2 of grow)

Then, I discovered this 2 weeks ago. (See photo). Couple of weeks ago I also found a hole in a leaf. Beside of that, I wouldn't know what would point in to the direction of a pest. I also had a leaf curl and kind of "disapear" a part of it, which looked kind of like what it would eventually be in the photo. So I concluded that it wasn't a pest but nutrients/pH related

https://img ur.com/a/pKb0kxc

(Delete space in link)
 
tobh

tobh

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The roots were firm. Not slimy at all. Brown color should be because of the nutrients. Could EC be rising because of bacteria? Hydroguard add 0.2-0.3EC, so I wouldn't be surprised if bacteria multiplying increases EC.

What photo do you see bite marks? I have had spider mites in the beginning. I knew my clones had them because the guy I get them from has an infestation. I added double of the recommend dose of phyto-mutes. Did it twice, to be sure. Never had any spider mite symptoms since then (week 2 of grow)

Then, I discovered this 2 weeks ago. (See photo). Couple of weeks ago I also found a hole in a leaf. Beside of that, I wouldn't know what would point in to the direction of a pest. I also had a leaf curl and kind of "disapear" a part of it, which looked kind of like what it would eventually be in the photo. So I concluded that it wasn't a pest but nutrients/pH related

https://img ur.com/a/pKb0kxc

(Delete space in link)
Bacteria won't really increase EC, what you'll see when they have a bloom event is pH rising significantly, and fast. That's part of why I quit using hydroguard, it's too much a pain in the ass to run live imo. Most of all my pH issues went away as soon as I switched to h2o2 -- just my experience though, wouldn't recommend changing anything just yet until we identify what the root cause is.

That pic looks suspiciously like a calcium issue. Leaf twist + deformation is a sign that either ca is being locked out or an over abundance of silica is present -- i doubt the latter because silica tox does some really wild shit to leaves.

I'm leaning towards pests because of the structure of the pit marks on the leaves. Some of them look like holes, there are random white specks all over, and just the overall shape doesn't strike me as a typical deficiency or lockout symptom. They're too round, if that makes sense. Having confirmation that you did have an issue before further makes my intuition think that. Could scope the leaves and see if you find any creepy crawlies running around just to rule that out entirely.

You obviously had some nute burn as some point as you've mentioned. Further, I'm thinking because your water level is dropping, EC is rising, pH is rising, the plants are being attacked by something preventing them from consuming what you're feeding.

@PK1 you've the DWC experience, what say you? @Dirtbag have you seen anything like this before?
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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The roots were firm. Not slimy at all. Brown color should be because of the nutrients. Could EC be rising because of bacteria? Hydroguard add 0.2-0.3EC, so I wouldn't be surprised if bacteria multiplying increases EC. What photo do you see bite marks? I have had spider mites in the beginning. I knew my clones had them because the guy I get them from has an infestation. I added double of the recommend dose of phyto-mutes. Did it twice, to be sure. Never had any spider mite symptoms since then (week 2 of grow) Then, I discovered this 2 weeks ago. (See photo). Couple of weeks ago I also found a hole in a leaf. Beside of that, I wouldn't know what would point in to the direction of a pest. I also had a leaf curl and kind of "disapear" a part of it, which looked kind of like what it would eventually be in the photo. So I concluded that it wasn't a pest but nutrients/pH related https://img ur.com/a/pKb0kxc (Delete space in link)
Bacteria won't really increase EC, what you'll see when they have a bloom event is pH rising significantly, and fast. That's part of why I quit using hydroguard, it's too much a pain in the ass to run live imo. Most of all my pH issues went away as soon as I switched to h2o2 -- just my experience though, wouldn't recommend changing anything just yet until we identify what the root cause is.

That pic looks suspiciously like a calcium issue. Leaf twist + deformation is a sign that either ca is being locked out or an over abundance of silica is present -- i doubt the latter because silica tox does some really wild shit to leaves.

I'm leaning towards pests because of the structure of the pit marks on the leaves. Some of them look like holes, there are random white specks all over, and just the overall shape doesn't strike me as a typical deficiency or lockout symptom. They're too round, if that makes sense. Having confirmation that you did have an issue before further makes my intuition think that. Could scope the leaves and see if you find any creepy crawlies running around just to rule that out entirely.

You obviously had some nute burn as some point as you've mentioned. Further, I'm thinking because your water level is dropping, EC is rising, pH is rising, the plants are being attacked by something preventing them from consuming what you're feeding.

@PK1 you've the DWC experience, what say you? @Dirtbag have you seen anything like this before?
The spider mites symptoms had lighter dots. More yellow then orange. Where do you see the white dots? On the bottom leafs? Photo's are on the older side. And the phyto-mites came in a container of saw dust. So it might be just little rests of saw dust. I will look tomorrow for bugs. But I look for them regularly because spider-mites have the reputation to come back again after you think you got rid of them.

I first didn't add any calmag. Just the cal and mag that was in the tripart i added it later on when I thought I had Cal deficiency (probably nute burn). At one point I stopped and the nute burn(?) got worse. So now I just considered it as a main nutrient and add it every time.

I leave the water in the RDWC an inch under the net pots. It only lowers an inch a day when I close the tank off from the RDWC. Mainly whe I make new water or I do it for a day to see if EC is dropping accordingly. But I haven't done the later in a while because I found the hang of it with the tank open to the RDWC. They drink around 25L in a day and RDWC holds 160L. So drop isn't that drastic if you ask me.

And I don’t use Silica. I'm afraid it will damage my water chiller.

My chiller hasn't been cleaned yet. Could that have something to do with it? I don’t know how it would tho. I expect it to just stop working or giving me a warning or something. I used to use pure RO water. But had pH swings and was told to take part tap. That would stabilize the pH more. But I'm sure the minerals of the tap water will clog up my chiller in a certain amount of time.
 
tobh

tobh

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The chiller not being cleaned and sterilized could definitely have an impact. There's no telling what kind of bacteria is in there, and with all the super small dead zones bacteria could culture, I wouldn't rule it out as contributing to what you're seeing. I don't think it's the root cause though.

Forgive me if you mentioned this, but how many plants are in the system? Are all of them affected or just this one?
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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The chiller not being cleaned and sterilized could definitely have an impact. There's no telling what kind of bacteria is in there, and with all the super small dead zones bacteria could culture, I wouldn't rule it out as contributing to what you're seeing. I don't think it's the root cause though.

Forgive me if you mentioned this, but how many plants are in the system? Are all of them affected or just this one?
I have 16 plants. So far I would say at least 4-5 have some form of the orange spots and burned edges. It does seem to appear on the higher fan leafs.
 
tobh

tobh

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I have 16 plants. So far I would say at least 4-5 have some form of the orange spots and burned edges. It does seem to appear on the higher fan leafs.
lemme think on this for a bit. i'll be back when i have other ideas. keep me posted on the scoping for bugs, i've not quite ruled that out yet.
 
Fro5ty

Fro5ty

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lemme think on this for a bit. i'll be back when i have other ideas. keep me posted on the scoping for bugs, i've not quite ruled that out yet.
No bugs. I looked under leafs. Saw no bugs. The leafs that are least effected, look fine on the under side. It’s clear that the damage begins at the upside of the leaf.

another top branch fell over. I’m really at a loss here. I’m going to change the water when I’m back from work tomorrow morning. Just gonna give the 1:2:3 ratio at 0.9EC

pH dropped 0.2 and is now 5.7. EC increased to 1.1….
 
jguit

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@tobh , Fro5ty mentioned in his other thread for this problem that he is filling his RDWC with a large feeding tank, which has no aeration and also begins to smell bad withing a few weeks. His feed basically sits in a stagnant filling tank w/ enymes and occasional h2o2. I'm not experienced with managing a tank that large but i don't think that sounds good. Your thoughts?

I honestly think he needs to get that stanky filling tank situation sorted out but i defer to the RDWC experts.

@Fro5ty , did you ever take a light reading on your canopy? I still think it looks like a calcium issue from too much light from your LEDs. I know i said this a million times already but for some reason you're reluctant to take a measurement. LOL
 
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Dirtbag

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@tobh , Fro5ty mentioned in his other thread for this problem that he is filling his RDWC with a large feeding tank, which has no aeration and also begins to smell bad withing a few weeks. His feed basically sits in a stagnant filling tank w/ enymes and occasional h2o2. I'm not experienced with managing a tank that large but i don't think that sounds good. Your thoughts?

I honestly think he needs to get that stanky filling tank situation sorted out but i defer to the RDWC experts.

@Fro5ty , did you ever take a light reading on your canopy? I still think it looks like a calcium issue from too much light from your LEDs. I know i said this a million times already but for some reason you're reluctant to take a measurement. LOL

I'd refer him to the latest post in my grow journal. I also use a big stagnant tank with no aeration. And no aeration in my clean res either besides H2O2, though I would use airstones for dwc. But that big dirty source tank could be addressed by using a UV sterilizer and likely more peroxide in the holding tank.

Post in thread 'The Crystal Palace is back, now with a Spiderfarmer SE5000.' https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/t...ith-a-spiderfarmer-se5000.133702/post-2739726
 

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