Help Squiggly With His Compost Tea Project!!

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geologic

geologic

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The feeder next to it looks to be the same bottle--
with open top and cap...

10219363
 
squiggly

squiggly

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The feeder next to it looks to be the same bottle--
with open top and cap...

View attachment 396185

I thought the same thing, but I'm concerned the opening at the mouth will be too wide (so as to let food out). I'll see how these work out first and then maybe pick one of these up to test if they work well. Still looking for the handleless bottles elsewhere--to no avail.
 
geologic

geologic

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Yep--
all the perfect shaped ones seem to have handles...
 
We Solidarity

We Solidarity

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I remember seeing 3 liter bottles of cola in the ghetto... might try to find one of those for use in a mock up.

You could also try (not cheap, but a great solution):
(this is 2 gallons)
View attachment 396175

Or you could cut the cone portion off of a 5 gal water bottle. I'm sure the portion above the handle would accommodate the volume you're shooting to brew in one go.

http://www.amazon.com/Gallon-Reusable-Polycarbonate-Water-Bottle/dp/B000U7Z0IU

Nice to see you squiggs


check it found that tank minus the stand for 13 on the site...a stand for that would be easy as hell especially with the flat base...
 
squiggly

squiggly

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So Check It Out:

What I'm trying to develop here is a product which does away with some of the guesswork involved in brewing teas. I have my own list of pitfalls and issues I'd like to address, but since this product is meant to serve the needs of folks like you--I'd like to know what kinds of issues YOU have had brewing your teas. What would make this process easier for you? What do you hate about it?

If I can think of a way to bake a solution to your problem into my plan--we can all come out better for it :P

So have at it, let's hear your gripes.

For clarification, do not include problems you've had with brewing apparati--as I am not developing a new brewer or any brewer components.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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How about a separate brew for veg and bloom? Possibly narrow down a recipe for pest control also?

I think I might be able to get something together that selects for what you want in veg vs. bloom--however this would be in conjunction with an already existing veg/bloom regimen like caps (this product would be an additive to such a system). This gives me a direction to take for literature research, exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

As for the pest control thing, this is more the purview of OG Biowar and similar products. I don't want to modify the species list we're using, instead I want to optimize the environment for them. In that way I might be able to potentiate an already existing line rather than developing a new one.

Analogize the brewer to a grow room. Instead of changing the equipment in the grow room, I want to position it better (raise the lights, turn up the humidity, etc) so that the plants (microbes) are happier. I don't want to change strains.

It's a weak analogy but I think you'll catch my meaning. I'm doing shit to the water, I'll be using the same innoculants as everyone else.
 
waayne

waayne

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squiggly from my point of view ,I'd like to see if there is any way you can stimulate the water to encourage or enable higher dissolved oxygen levels during the brew cycle.....

Optimum D.O. levels during the brew cycle is one of my main concerns when brewing tea.
 
P

ponyboy

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check out the dewey mister its great for brewing! its air powered bubbles and mixs and easy to clean give it a look
 
P

ponyboy

30
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and great replacement for a water pump and air stone in the ez cloner ! keeps temps down
 
sealed138

sealed138

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I definitely think OG biowar is the way to go as far as added biology to the brew, but I also use compost, castings, fish hydrolisate, powdered kelp, and baseline. All at different ratios, but if you we're to narrow down conditions/recipes to better achieve different goals using your system of multiple micro brews I'd be very interested.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I definitely think OG biowar is the way to go as far as added biology to the brew, but I also use compost, castings, fish hydrolisate, powdered kelp, and baseline. All at different ratios, but if you we're to narrow down conditions/recipes to better achieve different goals using your system of multiple micro brews I'd be very interested.

This is exactly what I'm after. So, for instance, maybe I'd have one additive that established best conditions for a fungal tea--and you could follow that up by adding a bit higher ratio of protein/fat:sugar than you would for a bacterial brew. I'd have a second additive which is best for a bacterial brew.

Something else about this which would be nice is I plan to include primary food source (sugar) in the additive. This may not ultimately be possible, but it's something worth looking into for sure.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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squiggly from my point of view ,I'd like to see if there is any way you can stimulate the water to encourage or enable higher dissolved oxygen levels during the brew cycle.....

Optimum D.O. levels during the brew cycle is one of my main concerns when brewing tea.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to be possible due to the kinetics involved. The only compounds which could do this would be either harmful to plants or really just a bit too strange to include in a product like this (even though harmless). Ammonium bromide increases oxygen solubility, but when it's time to use this product I want to be able to tell you that everything in it is safe to ingest--and that it's all been sourced with food grade purity from a responsible supplier.

While the utility seems like it might be worth a random chemical or two, as it turns out the effect on DO is still pretty small. I'm trying to stick with only sodium, potassium, and phosphate salts--as we already have great data on what the tolerances for these are in plants, so it's easy for me not to overdo it.

For ammonium bromide? I have no idea what it will do to plants, lol.
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
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I definitely think OG biowar is the way to go as far as added biology to the brew, but I also use compost, castings, fish hydrolisate, powdered kelp, and baseline. All at different ratios, but if you we're to narrow down conditions/recipes to better achieve different goals using your system of multiple micro brews I'd be very interested.

Also wanted to add that I think most folks will also add some compost to their brew, so this is a part of my research process. Initially I want to balance out what my additive does for OG Biowar and see that it's increasing efficacy, then I will see what it looks like when I add some fresh compost and whether or not I need to adjust.

Just for a little clarity, because I keep dancing around the topic without specifically addressing it.....

Why We Need This:

The purpose of this product comes from the realization that the bacteria we're after don't particularly like the environment we're putting them in--in fact they fucking basically hate it as much as they possibly can. They are not a fan of pure RO water, nor are they of water with veral small mineral concentrations such as are found in most tap water. They like very specific ranges of salt concentrations, very narrow pH ranges, and very narrow ranges of total ionic strength. Going above or below the ideal in either of these measures can cause, among other things:

1. Slow growth.
2. Cytolysis (literally, cells bursting from being in a hypotonic environment).
3. Total eradication for species that are outside of their livable ranges.
4. Poor metabolism (makes less of the proteins and other compounds which give them their utility).
5. Weak immunity to pathogens.
6. Selection for generations of bacteria which are more resistant to poor conditions, but not necessarily those which are most successful in optimal conditions. The closer we can get to an optimal colony in the brew, the better it will fare when it gets into the soil (in its optimal environment). In effect, the bacteria which survive the shock of the brew may be hardier--but not necessarily better for your garden.

For an analogy on 6. Imagine you plant a bunch of seeds in your garden. Now imagine you TOTALLY shit on them. Too much water, too many nutes, too much light, too much heat. Just completely murder them. Okay now imagine only one of them lives. It's hardy, right? Yes--but it might not have been the most delactable, the most oily, or the highest yielder that you planted. You'll never know if one of those others that died would've been a cup winner if you had tended to its every need like a baby. Furthermore, every measure of quality in the plant that did live is still going to be reduced based on how badly you shit on it in the beginning of life. The same thing can, and likely is, happening with your bacteria. I think we all know that some of the most finnicky strains can be some of the best ones. Right now we're asking our bacteria to fight for survival at the beginning of a brew rather than encouraging them to proliferate.

I want to optimize the brew water/process for you in a few ways (which I'll TLDR at the bottom for clarity):

I want to remove all of the guesswork involved here. At first glance it might seem as easy as adding salt--unfortunately we have to be careful because our plants would get pissed if we started treating them with table salt weekly or daily. The reality is it's much more advanced than that. We need to get salt concentrations that the bacteria likes (of the type it likes) that the plant will also thrive with. This means keeping sodium low, but not absent, and staying away from anions/cations that are not a normal food source for the plants. It also means careful research into how much of each cation/anion the bacteria/fungi like to have around. So for instance if I'm adding twice as much phosphate as I need to I might piss off the bennies--but they'll hate me if I don't add any.

A third consideration comes up in the form of ionic strength, which is basically a measure of the total ionic content of the solution. The EC of a solution is a way of approxmating (poorly) its ionic strength--to put this in terms farmers can easily understand. We must optimize the levels of each individual ion concentration, while being sure to also consider the optimal overall ionic strength. Too high and cells dessicate, too low and they burst.

Even more complicated (and this is the reason I need to dig in and do a few months of rapid prototyping and research) is the following situation:

1. Bacteria A really likes 100mM of phosphate around, but it really hates more than 200mM. It is diametrically opposed to having no phosphate around.
2. Bacteria A really likes 100mM of potassium around, but it really hates more than 200mM. It is diametrically opposed to having no potassium around.
3. Bacteria A really hates LESS than 200mM of phosphate IF AND ONLY IF there are between 100mM--200mM of potassium present.

These connections can get pretty gross, and it turns out that a lot of them are pH dependent--and the tolerances will be different for each individual species. Finding optimal ranges for a wide ranges of species is going to prove to be the biggest uphill climb for this project--but I'm convinced I can have an appreciable impact on efficacy here, because we're starting from a place where we're totally shitting on the bacteria and they are still resillient enough and beneficial enough to make the whole process worth it. In a sentence, it can't get any worse by doing this--so that's a positive. What I'm most interested in finding out is how much better it can get.

The pH dependence brings me to my next focus. This is the thing I think most brewers will be most excited about. I plan to add a 3rd layer of complexity to the above optimization problem. I want to, while keeping ion concentrations and ionic strength optimized, buffer the solution within optimal pH range for the brew. This means much more than simply popping in my product and then having your pH set for you. While it will do this, what's more important is that YOU can then adjust that pH within a given range (+/- ~1 pH unit from where it's optimized. For instance if when you add my product it gives a pH of 6.5, you will be able to adjust between 5.6-8.4 without exceeding the buffer capacity). In practice what this means is you can choose a pH and "set it and forget it". The closer you get to the edge of the buffer capacity, the less staying power the buffer has. Bacteria will also be producing acids and bases, so the pH will still drift (and the buffer could break)--however, it will drift much more slowly and bacteria will be subject to FAR less local extremes in pH (the pH of the solution will "average out" much better in presence of a buffer, even with poor circulation).

I think the above is where about 90% of the utility of this product will come in. The rest will just be a result of my hard work in optimization and removing that step for you.

The final thing I want to add, but I'm not sure if it will be economical yet, is food (ie, sugar for bacteria, protein/fat for fungi).

I want brewing with my product and OG Biowar to be this easy:

1. Water in Brewer.
2. Add my product and mix.
3. Add caps bennies per his instructions.
4. Add whatever else you want to add.
5. Walk away.
+ the added benefit of being able to choose whatever stable pH you should so desire (as different pH ranges will give you different ratios of species).

Ideally I'd also like to come out of this being able to give some guidance on what pH range will give you best results for a particular desired result.


So, TLDR, my product will ideally do the following for you:

1. Optimize salt concentrations.
2. Optimize ionic strength.
3. Buffer the solution (giving you a choice what stable pH you want to brew at--for more consistent and repeatable results).
4. Remove need for secondary food source (Like molasses. Fish hydroylsate et al will still be good for fungal brews, not looking to reinvent the wheel on that.)

Challenges:

1. I am going to be extremely hard on myself with regard to sourcing compounds. I know what is acceptable and what is not, and I won't be taking my source's word for their quality. All compounds going into this product will be tested in at least two independent facilities for common measures like heavy metal presence. This testing will continue throughout the lifetime of the product at regular intervals. I am an organic farmer and, while this methodology isn't strictly organic, I won't sell or produce something that I wouldn't use myself. If there were natural sources for these purified salts (they really need to be pure to get the buffering action I want)--I would use them, but there aren't. Nevertheless, any product coming from me will be something I would grow MY tomatoes with to feed MY family. While I do not suspect I will ever try to become "certified organic", I can offer that promise to you.

2. I am going to be open about what is going into this mix. This will leave me open to reverse engineering without any way to combat it (or to patent the mix). It's a shitty business model, but my hope is that farmers and gardeners would rather deal with a guy who's being honest and open with them than some asshole who stole his idea and doesn't give a shit about the quality--even if it might cost them a bit more. When compounds are sourced cheaper (the only way to really undercut me here), there is usually a dubious reason for it.

3. DELIVERY: Man could I ever use some insight here. I don't mean how do I ship it to you, but rather what form it should take. Is a liquid additive best, or would I be best served to offer it as a tablet? If a tablet...how in god's name am I going to produce that? What machinery is necessary, etc--and is my mix even tablet-able? Is a powder feasible? As for that last question I should know a bit better (as it falls into my field of expertise) but the reality is I'm just not up on dry mixing and how efficacious it is. I want this product to be standardized to the point that no two tablespoons are different from each other and I don't know if I can accomplish that with a powder product. I think a liquid is probably ideal--but unfortunately it probably presents the most challenges for me. It's heavier, has a shorter shelf life, takes up more space, and I know NOTHING about packaging a liquid product or what that entire process entails. I have a plan to tackle all of these problems and to find what will work for me, but any advice is appreciated TO THE MAX.

4. Testing: A lot will need to be done. I'm going to need guinea pigs, and as I've stated I'm no longer growing at my abode. A great deal of what I need to see isn't actually whether the bacteria are performing better (I know that they will). I need to be sure that my mix isn't having any adverse effects on plants, that salt buildup isn't becoming an issue (especially in coco and hydro systems). Generally, I just need to see what the practical application is like and if it ends up being worth it.

That about wraps it up dudes, thanks for tuning in!
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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squiggly from my point of view ,I'd like to see if there is any way you can stimulate the water to encourage or enable higher dissolved oxygen levels during the brew cycle.....

Optimum D.O. levels during the brew cycle is one of my main concerns when brewing tea.
Add a venturi, foam fractionator-stylee. ;)
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
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squiggly from my point of view ,I'd like to see if there is any way you can stimulate the water to encourage or enable higher dissolved oxygen levels during the brew cycle.....

Optimum D.O. levels during the brew cycle is one of my main concerns when brewing tea.

I actually want to add something else. A big part of why I'm doing this is that I think, by controlling other factors like pH and ionic strength, we can make DO a non-issue. The reason I think that is I believe we can burn the "candle" that is the DO problem at both ends in the following way:

1. Reduce brew time (if we don't shock colonies to start, they don't need as long to get established).
2. Reduce opportunity for anaerobes by maintaining an extremely proliferative environment for the target species.
3. Through considerations relating to equilibrium, and by maintaining a stable pH, be able to predict more easily when a brew will reach the point of diminishing returns (when colonies become too large to prevent cell death due to insufficient DO). By maintaining the same pH environment and a very similar ionic strength (depending on what else you choose to add and how precisely you add it) across many trials you reduce variability and make things like this more predictable.

Generally speaking, for bacterial dominant brews DO should never be an issue. By the time the brew is done (at maximum say 10 hours) DO levels are still appreciably high and in a buffer pH drift should be negligible. I think this is a common misconception, that a brew needs to go for 24 hours or something like that. This just isn't the case for bacterial dominant brews--these little guys make quick work of proliferation, even in the shitty conditions we usually give them. Imagine how much truer this is if they're in a soup of, to them, ambrosia.

For fungal brews you need a bit more time, and this is where DO can become an issue--because your bacteria are still going to be proliferating out of control. For a product optimizing for this I'd actually like to suppress bacterial growth a bit and allow for more proliferative fungi growth to combat this, the bacteria will still proliferate and do their job--but the more roadblocks we give to them the better. In this way I think it's probably better to start a fungal brew off by letting the DO dip significantly during the first day.

This way, you can let the DO slide before you get huge colonies that are dying and providing a foothold for anaerobes. This will suppress growth of the bennie bacteria in the starting hours of the brew. In mid-brew you can then kick your air pump or vortex into high gear to bring up DO levels, crush any anaerobes that have made it in, and allow the bacteria to start "catching up" with the fungi. Again this should give you more predictable finish times if we can get it to maintain a stable pH, and you'll end up with a more predictably fungal dominant tea--which is EXTREMELY important. Can't be overstated, especially if we're talking pest and pathogen control.

I think the buffer strength might need to be a bit higher to allow for this process, so I'm going to play around with that idea in my research. For this reason it may be necessary to alter the fungal application rates relative to bacterial.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Also, I'll add another challenge:

Until the point that this becomes a business rather than an idea--there are some methods of research that are just out of reach for me. When dealing with bacteria there are quite a few regulations in place. I can brew these things to my hearts content and put them under a scope and all over plants. If I were to start smearing plates and isolating colonies, that would be extremely illegal and it's just not something I can do without establishing a lab and getting the proper government authorization. It would also be ethically questionable. There are biohazard concerns when dealing with biological growth media, and for experiments that will run longer than a day or two--it's just not safe to do them in a home or outside of a protected facility. This prevents me pretty strictly from getting the best types of data that can be had when it comes to this type of research. However, it's my hope that there will be a clear enough difference under the scope and in the soil to warrant my continuing down this path and ultimately working towards getting authorization to further optimize the product.
 
pRiMo303

pRiMo303

541
93
This is exactly what I'm after. So, for instance, maybe I'd have one additive that established best conditions for a fungal tea--and you could follow that up by adding a bit higher ratio of protein/fat:sugar than you would for a bacterial brew. I'd have a second additive which is best for a bacterial brew.

Something else about this which would be nice is I plan to include primary food source (sugar) in the additive. This may not ultimately be possible, but it's something worth looking into for sure.
There is a product similar to what you describe..OG Tea VSS. Microbial tea with all food sources included.

Something else about this which would be nice is I plan to include primary food source (sugar) in the additive. This may not ultimately be possible, but it's something worth looking into for sure.[/quote]
 
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