HELP Strange flower development Day 41 Small-knobby

[Bangarang]

Ok so i am having some issues once again. WTF? I will let the pictures do all of the talking. Please point out anything that comes to mind. I know what the leaves are telling me but i am stumped on how to fix them. I cut out the PK and reduced nutes on the Platinum. Today was day 41 for the Platinum and Dutch treat.
Something that has been happening is this strange flower development. What is the cause for this? My room runs from 79-83 with 800-900ppm CO2 with RH of 40-65%. I need to fix this.
This Dutch Treat plant has very small flowers, in fact i have never seen so many tiny flowers on a plant. Any reason or advice? I do not know the history of these strains as they were a gift from a friend.
The picture of the headband is day 12.

Roots Soilless
Platinum OG
Dutch Treat
Headband

This is what i run if i do not know the genetics. (Grow-Micro-Bloom) in ml
Week 1
6-6-6
5 Cal/mg
3 Amino Aide
1-2 Silica

Day 7
1.5-3-4
5 Cal/mg
1ml Moab
OR
Ph'd water with 1.5ml Bushmaster but this is dependent on the strain because of height restrictions.

Week 2 EC: 2.0-2.2
3-6-8 and ramp up micro and bloom to week 3
5 Cal/mg
1-2 Silica
1 Floralicious Plus

Week 3-5 EC:2.2-2.4
3-8-12
5 Cal/mg
1-2 Silica
1 Floralicious Plus
8 Big Bud Liquid (start with 4ml first time then up to 8)
3 Carbo Load
10 Hydrazyme once a week
1.5 Snow Storm every other watering

Week 6-7 (8 depending on if it is a 8 or 9 weeker) (No MOAB or Dry KB for Platinum bc of symptoms) EC:2.6
0-6-9
3 Cal/mg
1 Floralicious Plus
10 Flora Nectar Cane Sugar
.75-1 Dry KoolBloom
1.5 Snow Storm every other
Or
0-4-6
3 Cal/mg
1 Floralicious Plus
1.2-2 Moab
1.5 Snow Storm every other

Week 8
Flush with Hydrazym first time
Flush with ph'd water 2-3 times

 

[woodsmaneh]

the bushmaster is doing it, they use PRG's that are not good for YOU, My advice is stop using it. Use Canna PK or Shooting powder, most companies us PRG'ss and it's criminal. What you see is called fox tailing and is driven by the PRG's. I used Big bud and Overdrive for 2 years and we sold that shit in the stores never again. I was doing research into Advanced nutrients and that's how I found out about the PRG's in a pile of products. Don't use them. Over in Australia they have it in all the boosters .

Relevant Links

(The Dangers of Plant Growth Regulators)

http://safeaccessnow.org/blog/?p=1882 (Americans for Safe Access. Long Banned Alar (Daminozide) Shows Up on Hydroponic Store Shelves Before Being Removed Again)
(Where it all began. The history of PGRs in the hydro market and more)

here is 3 pages from a 28 page report



Plant Growth Regulators (PGRs)

(E.g. Superbud, Phosphoload, Boonta Bud, Rox, Rock Juice, Flower Dragon, Gravity, Bushmaster, Cyco Flower, Yield Masta, etc)

This article isn’t so much about ideal growing practices but, instead, a warning about less than ideal growing practices amongst cannabis cultivators.

That is, the use of non-compliant and potentially harmful chemical PGR (Plant Growth Regulator) products used during flower set by far too many growers.

Just some of these products are Superbud (Australia), Phosphoload (Superbud rebranded, North America), Rock Juice (Australia), Flower Dragon (North America), Gravity (North America), Bushmaster (North America), Boonta Bud (UK), Rox (UK), Cyco Flower (Australia), Mega Bud (North America), Dr Nodes (renamed Mr No – North America), and Yield Masta/Sudden Impact (Australia and NZ).

In all cases the aforementioned products contain chemical PGR actives (subclass “Growth Retardant”) such as paclobutrazol (PBZ), chlormequat chloride (CC), and/or daminozide.

These chemical actives:

Are classed as systemic pesticides

Are scheduled poisons

Have long withholding periods

Are in many cases and most countries banned for use on food/consumable crops

Are subject to strict regulations, pertaining to registration and use (crop type, application rates and times)

Are, in the case of daminozide, rated as a “probable human carcinogen” and in the case of paclobutrazol rated with, “This substance/agent has not undergone a complete evaluation and determination under US EPA's IRIS program for evidence of human carcinogenic potential”. Additionally, paclobutrazol has been shown in studies to be toxic to the liver.

Are, in many cases, sold illegally through the hydroponics retail sector and falsely marketed as containing organic components.

Overview

In early 2010 I published “The Curious Case of the Flower Dragon” on www.integralhydro.com. In this piece I spoke about Flower Dragon – a bloom additive that is/was being sold through the hydroponics industry in the UK, Europe and North America with claims of being a “phytomineral” based flowering supplement, containing “citrates”, “tartarates”, “phosphates”, “arginates”, and “rare earth elements”. At that time I outlined that based on the products labeling, its registration with the Oregon and Californian Agricultural Departments, and dubious marketing, Flower Dragon was, in all probability, a PGR based flowering additive.

In May of 2011 information surfaced that Flower Dragon, Phosphoload, Top Load, Bushmaster and Gravity had been “quarantined” and removed from the Californian and Oregon markets following an investigation by CDFA (Californian Department of Food and Agriculture) which discovered noncompliant PGRs in Flower Dragon and several other products.

During the investigation, Flower Dragon was found to contain paclobutrazol and daminozide (Alar), the latter being a PGR that was once used widely in the US apple industry before being banned for use in any consumable crop in 1989. Top Load was found to contain daminozide (Alar), while Phosphoload, as with Flower Dragon, was found to contain both paclobutrazol and daminozide. The fact that both Flower Dragon and Phosphoload contained almost identical actives was no surprise – both have their origins with South Australian based company Dutch Master (DM). Dutch Master Phosphoload (albeit registered behind a front company, Nuegn Garden Exports, PO Box 12271, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia) was likely developed by onetime DM employee Steve Berlow, who had gone out on his own, starting Envy Plant Products (BC) and releasing Flower Dragon, or as the case may be, rebranded Dutch Master Phosphoload plus red dye. Since then Yellow Bottle Ooze Bloom has also been busted - it was found to contain daminozide/Alar by the CDFA after lab testing. I will post FOIA data on lab tests and other when I am able to access it.

In the case of ‘Bushmaster’ and ‘Gravity’, both products were found to contain paclobutrazol – a potential toxin (chemical PGR) with links to causing liver disease.

LAB RESULTS – Tests Conducted on PGR Containing Products in March, 2011 (FOIA Data obtained from Californian Department of Food and Agriculture)

Flower Dragon: 18,400-18,650ppm daminozide, 30-46.3ppm paclobutrazol

Phosphoload: 17,800ppm daminozide, 20.6ppm paclobutrazol

TopLoad: 3,467ppm daminozide

Bushmaster: 271ppm paclobutrazol

Gravity: 516ppm paclobutrazol

Breaking News: Yellow Bottle Ooze Bloom was recently found to contain daminozide.

Download CDFA lab analysis and recall notices of the aforementioned products (1.8meg PDF)

Deceptive Marketing of PGR Based Products

PGR containing products are typically promoted as organic and safe. This creates confusion amongst the cannabis culture as to the implications of using these – stated to be - organic products.

For example, Humboldt Countys Own Bushmaster (paclobutrazol) is sold listing “Active Ingredient: 1.5% Ascophyllum Nodosum (Sea Kelp).

And Gravity (paclobutrazol) is marketed with this,

“Our uniquely prepared kelp extract and phosphorus based additive will harden your flowers from the top to the bottom. A little goes a long way. Use once or twice about 3 weeks before the end of a plant's cycle. Adds size and weight to flowering plants.”

[End Quote]

As for Flower Dragon (paclobutrazol and daminozide),

“… This highly specialized mixture of selected rare earth elements and phyto nutrients supports your newly supplied bio available phosphorous by helping focus your plants internal energies into flowering, producing large abundant flowers, without the necessary lag…… a process commonly known as “Speed Shifting”. To do this Flower Dragons harnesses the amazing natural power of Arginates and Rare Earth Elements (REE’s). These unique phyto nutrients synergistically work with our micronutrients to allow your plants their most naturally rapid transition into flowering”

[End Quote]

And Dutch Master Phosphoload (paclobutrazol and daminozide)

“Dutch Master PhosphoLoad utilizes a new technology which extracts unique isolates from coal derived humates. These are powerful earth elements that unlock the floodgates for a fast & powerful flowering response. When used, PhosphoLoad produces dramatically larger and heavier yields of flowers with an average yield increase of 25 to 30%. “

[End Quote]

While the onetime Dutch Master Superbud (paclobutrazol and daminozide) was marketed with,

 

[Bangarang]

I appreciate the response and i should have been more detailed as opposed to just putting up my basic feed chart. These girls did not get any Bush Master/Gravity. They received some Moab but this messed up structure was already there.
As the buds develop they just look like they are going to be weak airy buds with little trichs.
Could this be the result of too little CO2?

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

they look like its a combo of heat and maybe getting a bit toxed out too. i see some hooking and clawing on the leaves.

 

[jfizzle2cmu]

It's not PGRs. I had this VERY recently. At the start of summer, we were running 3 1000s in the flower room for 3 weeks straight with no AC (broke). Mites blew up the room and plants basically quit bud development 3 weeks in. By week 6 all buds looked like yours as they couldn't thicken up and weren't using nutes from the soil at all. In fact, it was like they were spitting nutes out or something. PPMs started coming out of runoff at like 2-3000 when we'd only put in 1000-1500 at the highest. They just sweat out everything we tried putting in and weren't carrying out photosynthesis anymore. So they didn't grow. It was like they were in autoflush. I wouldn't think 80 degrees would be too bad, but then again, your buds look a lot better than mine did at that point, so maybe that is where you're missing, CO2 and humidity. I know if you have higher temps, you should have slightly higher humidity (55-70%) and slightly higher co2. Are your calyxes stretched more than normal? If so, then I'm convinced that is the prob.

 

[Bangarang]

This is not the first time i have seen this in my room. I have run different strains and tried different PK's. I really think that it has something to do with the environment. I have a burner but my room is not sealed well and i cant get it above 900 ppm. I think i am going to go buy a tank of CO2 and try it out. Any other suggestions?

 

[woodsmaneh]

Well if your not using Bushmaster than it has to be Heat, too much N, light distance or genetics. In my case it was the overdrive.

 

[CelticEBE]

Well if your not using Bushmaster than it has to be Heat, too much N, light distance or genetics. In my case it was the overdrive.

PGR's in Big Bud? I stopped running overdrive because of foxtailing as well. On my last run I had one strain react to either Heavy 16 Fire, or Sea Green and the foxtails were out of control. Running that same strain again without those two nutes and no foxtails......weird.

Ok so i am having some issues once again. WTF? I will let the pictures do all of the talking. Please point out anything that comes to mind. I know what the leaves are telling me but i am stumped on how to fix them. I cut out the PK and reduced nutes on the Platinum. Today was day 41 for the Platinum and Dutch treat.
Something that has been happening is this strange flower development. What is the cause for this? My room runs from 79-83 with 800-900ppm CO2 with RH of 40-65%. I need to fix this.
This Dutch Treat plant has very small flowers, in fact i have never seen so many tiny flowers on a plant. Any reason or advice? I do not know the history of these strains as they were a gift from a friend.

Heat is usually the factor for foxtailing, but as woods pointed out sometimes it can be caused by nutes as well. You mention your room temps, but do you have a laser thermometer to take leaf temps? They aren't super expensive...I picked one up at Harbor Freight for $25. It is definitely a good tool to have around.

 

[Bangarang]

So tonight i took a moment and thought about everything. jfizzle2cmu nailed it. I checked the run off and my EC was 5.0 and ph of 5.1. So i went ahead and flushed them all real well with some 6.3 water with Clearx. I flushed them until the runoff was down to EC 2.5. I will reduce my food on the next feed in half. Any other suggestions?
So i transitioned from Big Bud to Moab; could it be possible that when the two interact within the coco that they produced an excessive amount of salt?
I had this problem before with a different genetic. I am thinking that with the warmer weather they are not able to digest the nutes as well.
Thanks

 

[ttystikk]

Two things; one, I run my RH at 70% with temps of 80F. I do this until flush, at the very end of bloom, and it definitely helps my yields and quality. Your plants look stressed by low RH and perhaps unbalanced or insufficient nutes. Also, if your RH is as low as you say, you're pretty much wasting your money on CO². Until the plant can open its stomata and allow CO² free access inside, it is not doing you any good. Low RH hinders CO² uptake because it forces the plant to keep its stoma shut to conserve interior moisture and prevent wilting.

The second thing is, wtf is wrong with foxtailing? If it throws trichs, smokes well, gets you high and adds weight, I must admit I don't see the problem!

 

[FruitOfTheLabor]

heat and nitrogen.

 

[Bangarang]

When a bud develops normally it appears much like a spade. The flower itself stacks and then late in the game if you are pushing it to hard you can get foxtailing. There is nothing wrong with foxtailing during the final 2 weeks. I personally will manipulate what i feed so that i can avoid this. But what i am encountering is the buds are not stacking. Instead they are pushing out little regrowths and the result is air buds.

 

[ttystikk]

Air bud is definitely not how I would describe it. They're nice n dense.

 

[Bangarang]

Not these. haha. They come out like sponge cakes with low trich production. It looks like shit because they stay super hairy.

 

[LordOfThNugz]

Heat and overfed.

 

[Jboys3]

Two things; one, I run my RH at 70% with temps of 80F. I do this until flush, at the very end of bloom, and it definitely helps my yields and quality. Your plants look stressed by low RH and perhaps unbalanced or insufficient nutes. Also, if your RH is as low as you say, you're pretty much wasting your money on CO². Until the plant can open its stomata and allow CO² free access inside, it is not doing you any good. Low RH hinders CO² uptake because it forces the plant to keep its stoma shut to conserve interior moisture and prevent wilting.

The second thing is, wtf is wrong with foxtailing? If it throws trichs, smokes well, gets you high and adds weight, I must admit I don't see the problem!

Interesting point of view...I run my temps in the low 70's, RH sets at 50-55%, and I set CO2 at 1500 ppm. My buds appear to do just fine and I don't have to deal with mold from high humidity.

I guess there are plenty of ways to skin a cat and I won't ever knock how you raise your meds. After all; you did help me with a spider mite issue.

I also agree with you...What's wrong with Fox Tailing?

 

[ttystikk]

Interesting point of view...I run my temps in the low 70's, RH sets at 50-55%, and I set CO2 at 1500 ppm. My buds appear to do just fine and I don't have to deal with mold from high humidity.

I guess there are plenty of ways to skin a cat and I won't ever knock how you raise your meds. After all; you did help me with a spider mite issue.

I also agree with you...What's wrong with Fox Tailing?

It is a very persistent myth that 70-75% humidity leads to mold- it is simply not true, no matter what you may have heard. The way to avoid mold is to maintain good air movement throughout your plants, top to bottom.

Bring your temps and humidity up a bit and you'll see substantially faster growth- coupled with higher usage rates of nutes and water.

 

[jfizzle2cmu]

It is a very persistent myth that 70-75% humidity leads to mold- it is simply not true, no matter what you may have heard. The way to avoid mold is to maintain good air movement throughout your plants, top to bottom.

Bring your temps and humidity up a bit and you'll see substantially faster growth- coupled with higher usage rates of nutes and water.

That's true about faster growth. I actually believe you can increase light intensity and co2 levels proportionally beyond normal ranges for even quicker growth. I've read about a couple of guys whom increased their co2 levels to upwards of 3500 ppm and were able to increase light intensity beyond the normal "point of no return" range. It was awhile ago I read this, but they had it all figured out that for such and such co2 increases the more you would need to increase the lumens. They said that they had to keep rh from 70-80% and temps in the mid-eighties range.
However, I don't like foxtailing. Seems becoming of a plant that isn't vigorous. Not sure if it affects potency negatively, but definitely doesn't increase it in my opinion.

 

[Jboys3]

It is a very persistent myth that 70-75% humidity leads to mold- it is simply not true, no matter what you may have heard. The way to avoid mold is to maintain good air movement throughout your plants, top to bottom.

Bring your temps and humidity up a bit and you'll see substantially faster growth- coupled with higher usage rates of nutes and water.

I did as you stated once before. I raised my temps to the high 70's and low 80's with an RH of 60-65%. I did end up having higher usuage of water and nutes as the pots [15 gal] dried out faster. I also tended to get more 'stretching' of my plants so I went back to my usual routine.

Perhaps I needed to raise the RH higher to keep the stretching down and the pots from drying out so quickly?

 

[ttystikk]

I did as you stated once before. I raised my temps to the high 70's and low 80's with an RH of 60-65%. I did end up having higher usuage of water and nutes as the pots [15 gal] dried out faster. I also tended to get more 'stretching' of my plants so I went back to my usual routine.

Perhaps I needed to raise the RH higher to keep the stretching down and the pots from drying out so quickly?

Your guess is my experience. Crank the humidity up, but don't forget to crank up the nutrient strength as well, as the plants will drink less water but need more nutrient. I run 70% RH @ 80F. It works well, especially when I can keep up with their nutrient requirements. At the moment, I'm seeing nutrient deficiencies at EC 1.7- weird.