Hi there, new, showing off my plant

[KG1]

Sorry Mate, I've got to respectfully disagree. From the web with 99.98% accuracy:

In terms of total heat energy, a true 600W LED and a 600W HPS will both ultimately produce roughly the same amount of heat in the room if you run them long enough in a closed system with no ventilation.

Here’s why:

1. Energy In = Energy Out (First Law of Thermodynamics)

A 600W light, no matter the technology, draws 600 watts of electrical power.

That energy can be converted into light, heat, or other forms, but in an enclosed space, all of it eventually ends up as heat.

Even the light energy that initially leaves the bulb or LED hits walls, plants, or surfaces, where it gets absorbed and re-radiated as heat.

So yes — 600 in = 600 out, in total energy terms.

2. Why LEDs feel cooler

HPS: Only about 30–40% of energy becomes light; the rest is heat right at the fixture (radiant + convective).

LEDs: Maybe 40–60% becomes light initially, but the rest still ends up as heat after the photons are absorbed.

Because LEDs convert more energy to light first, their fixture surfaces stay cooler and the heat is spread over time and space rather than blasting from a hot arc tube.

This is why an HPS lamp feels like a space heater above your head, while LEDs feel milder even though the total heat in the room evens out.

3. Practical impact on grow rooms

HPS tends to spike room temps faster because of intense radiant heat and hotter bulb temps (can reach 1000–2000°F).

LED heat is more diffuse, coming mainly from driver/electronics and absorbed light rather than a scorching bulb, so cooling systems work more efficiently.

So:

Short term: LEDs seem cooler, easier to manage.

Long term, closed system: 600W in still means 600W worth of heat load eventually.



Me:

I think the og question was; "can led heat be contained and exhausted to outside of a room or tent", I say yes, but with the same caveat as hps. Hot components would have to be placed in a sealed, (preferably) insulated system that pulls air from a source other than the tent or room, then runs it over the hot components, and exhausts it outside of the tent or room. The component(s) would stay hot, but the radiant and convective heat generated would be reduced to the intake source heat.

In my last big grow, I was pulling cool air from a crawl space under the house (thru a plenum with hvac filters), thru sealed lights (hps/grow wings) and exhausted into the attic. The light hoods then stayed just a couple degrees warmer than the crawl space air temp.

Nobody can tell me that properly used (sealed) tubes and hoods don't remove a significant amount of heat from a grow space while allowing the plants to grow right to the lights without (physical heat) burning them; however they can still be bleached in some circumstances by high intensity light

How much air do I cool running a 4 inch inline in a 4x4 on full power.

How many times minute do I exchange that air.

And your saying a 600w can heat at that rate.....

Do the maths you sound silly here, hos or led I shift enough air to cool all conductive heating.

You forget that too lol.

 

[KG1]

,

 

[Florida_Mike]

This is actually a very cool and innovative experiment. Even if the plant turns out to be a complete dud, the knowledge gained will be priceless. The fact that it's still alive is a testament to its potential viability.

T. Edison said something to the effect of: He discovered thousands of ways how not to make a light bulb, before he finally got it right.


Keep on keeping on, homie!

 

[amneziaHaze]

Afraid thermodynamics is not your forte, the bulbs surface itself transfers only a miniscule amount of heat to the total cubic foot of the grow space.

The heat transference from the bulbs surface does so as convection, as opposed to light heat which we would term radiation, and conduction being the third way heat can travel through a solid.

Now the fact you can touch the glass In a cool tube confirms your error and my point.

Another analogy, if I made a glass bulb that was one meter in diameter for a standard bulb filament the glass would stay quite cool in comparison.

The heat from convection is so inefficient you misunderstood the transference of energies from the bulbs filament.

Cool tubes got debunked years ago, why most just ran bare bulb and why LEDs still need a similar level of cooling to hps bulbs.

The evidence is all over these boards, most should know it. All an led did for me was given me slightly more light for the same wattage, I wasn't turning my extractor down by half or lowering wind speeds or even watering less. Standing under one just as hot as a hps, pretty similar infrared levels too. Differences too small to talk about.

is it the same if you pull the air out of the bottom of the box or at the source of heat generation? no soo cool tubes work

 

[KG1]

is it the same if you pull the air out of the bottom of the box or at the source of heat generation? no soo cool tubes work

oh so you still need to pull air out the tent with a cool tube?

Thought you removed that heat with the cook tube or at least enough you just turned your extraction down by half right!

 

[amneziaHaze]

oh so you still need to pull air out the tent with a cool tube?

Thought you removed that heat with the cook tube or at least enough you just turned your extraction down by half right!

i am starting to believe you think a cool tube removes 100% of the heat or at least that we think that? you do know it removes % more than not using it. not all of it? right?
whole idea is that the lamp heats up the lamp and then stored heat plus the lamp heat are radiating. its about quality of removal.and having a cool tube is better than not having it

 

[KG1]

i am starting to believe you think a cool tube removes 100% of the heat or at least that we think that? you do know it removes % more than not using it. not all of it? right?
whole idea is that the lamp heats up the lamp and then stored heat plus the lamp heat are radiating.

If I have a 3x3x5 and a 200cfm fan how much heat can I really heat up by!

Do some real maths bro input Vs output, my exhaust cools pretty efficiently, x amount of moving air divided by a small wattage lol come on.

That's why a cool tube is so pointless, maybe I. A sealed room with no ventilation it may have some meaning heat raise value but a simple extractor sees that removed in what... A few seconds!

 

[TestTime]

is it the same if you pull the air out of the bottom of the box or at the source of heat generation? no soo cool tubes work

Quick note on tubes. Pushing is better than pulling. Always push air, never pull it if you can avoid it.

 

[ChairmanFester]

It's whatever. These plants lose 30-35% of total THC per gram grown. If you're fine with 3-4 times as much everything, translating eventually to COST, and flavor destruction doesn't matter, what you have is (and this is an example) one third the amount of hash oil no matter how you cut it. Traditional grows, per gram by any metric, kill it. The numbers I'm writing are loose ballpark, as an illustration and not accurate to the decimal.
Justify this in light of your own goal. My unit of THC costs me 1. Yours costs 3. It's THC, yours and mine are the same.
Unless you have a terpine blend and cana-compound blend you want to have a lab quantify, we have no thing to discuss. This lacks concrete data.
Why is the active ingredients in THIS cannabis 3x better per gram?

 

[KG1]

Quick note on tubes. Pushing is better than pulling. Always push air, never pull it if you can avoid it.

Pull air you mean, we generally put the carbon filter at the start and you'll through.

How is everything you say completely backwards!

 

[TestTime]

If you put a 1,500-watt light and ballast in the same box, it would be no different than putting a 1,500-watt space heater in there—the heat produced would be the same. Watts in equals watts out. All space heaters put out the same amount of BTUs (British Thermal Units) per watt. All HPS bulbs put out the same BTUs per watt as well.


The heat energy in an HPS system is split between the ballast and the arc tube, like this:

1. Basic Power Flow in a 1000 W HPS System​

• Input power: 1000 watts (W)
• Ballast converts AC power to the right voltage/current for the lamp.
• Lamp(arc tube) converts electrical energy into:
  • Light (only a small fraction)
  • Heat (the rest)

HPS bulbs are around 25–30% efficient at turning electricity into light. The rest becomes heat.

---

2. Typical Numbers​

• Ballast losses: Most 1000 W magnetic ballasts are about 90–92% efficient.
  • That means 8–10% of total power is lost as heat in the ballast.
  • So for 1000 W input, about 80–100 W heats up the ballast itself.
• Lamp losses: The bulb turns the remaining 900–920 Winto light + heat.
  • With 25–30% light efficiency, about 250–300 W becomes light.
  • The remaining 600–670 W is heat radiating from the bulb.

3. Approximate Percentages (of total 1000 W)​

Component	Light (%)	Heat (%)	Heat Power (W)
Ballast	0	8–10%	80–100 W
Bulb (Arc Tube)	25–30%	60–67%	600–670 W
Total Heat	—	68–77%	680–770 W

That 60-67% (heat) of 1,000w has got to go somewhere; which is into the grow space, if not exhausted, whether inside a box or not. When you run a 1,000 W HPS system, all the electrical energy eventually turns into heat somewhere

LEDs may feel cooler because they spread heat differently and convert a little more energy into light instead of infrared radiation, but for the same wattage, they still dump almost the same total heat into a closed space. Be it a box, a tent, or a room.

I run 1,600w led's in a 4x8' tent. On 100% it gets very hot, even with an infinity 8" exhaust blower on 100%; I still have to open the doors to keep it around 90-95f.

I'm too messed up physically to tear everything apart to re-wire & move the ballasts.

No one's educating anyone. He's arguing for the sake of arguing. So stead I'll try to entertain and inform.

Hey Mike, thank you very much. Hopefully you enjoy this. Hardware versus software and how I got here.

Monmouth county library

Check out the headquarters:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

I snaked a lot of cat 3 (maybe even worse, it had to handle my hand coded 232 signaling) through conduits in that building. And many others. I fucking hate snaking wires.

I had just coded software that joined the first CD-ROM database that existed in distribution commercially. I worked through various entities up to the chain from a tiny consultancy to somebody who could press CDs off the mainframe and then they taught us that and then we were pressing CDs for the library catalog. Those mainframers could blow 60 hours prepping the database to get to the point of it pressing on that CD.

Once I fucked up and asked the mainframe or a question. He said no problem. I'll have the answer for you in the morning. I did not realize what I had done. He wrote a program that churn through a file that produced a stack of paper that took four hand trucks to transport from Pennsylvania to New Jersey and the guy delivered a hand truck full of cases of paper and on the top piece of paper. The answer to my question was there.

I had chewed through $100,000 of mainframe time that night. The boss was not amused. The entire company had to renegotiate the contract because we had to pretend all you can eat but you better not fucking eat it like that.

I coded software that did database updates on the first 20 MB disc that we shoved into PCS and turned them into XTS. And it had to join with the static CD-ROM database cuz we can only update that once every 6 months. But I could get that library catalog database in real time. But I had to merge it with someone else's hundreds of thousands of lines of code that expected to never have a changing database. That shit don't change in that shit. Don't merge. You get a new one on a CD every time.

Nope. Mine showed up over the rs232 cable. In real time.

But then I had to recode all their software to understand the concept of merging the shit.

And then I had every librarian draw a map of every library. Some were multiple pages. They outlined them and they drew all the stacks and they labeled it with the Dewey decimal System.

I created an ANSI graphics terminal program that Drew a map of whatever library you're in. Hit the book finder key of whatever book you're looking at. A floating arrow will hover over the screen. Then they'll walk you the path to where the book is. If it was multiple floors you would get a zoom in as you moved in and around. I did this with fucking antsy graphics.

I plugged the database that was live to the database that was static to the pictures to the XT and I installed these PCS everywhere running dos. Ms.o.

When you ran out of memory on that thing you know what you did? You fucking jumped to zero and you reboot the box right. I stopped worrying about memory leaks in my C code because it wasn't mine, it was hundreds of thousands of lines that someone else wrote that I put a few thousand lines in, and when it ran out of memory I rebooted that box. It might happen once every 3 days. Great. I don't care if a patron is standing in front of it. There's four more boxes next to it. Move to the next box that one will be back in a minute.

I wrote this all while writing the file transfer stuff and the nightly batch processing and all kinds of other stuff. I had to wire two PCS together with a special cable and chip because I need to probe the CPU because I had to figure out where their occasionally leak was and I didn't have the source code at that level. So I had to put break points on the CPU while watching from above.

I went through at least half a dozen C compilers in about 2 years as I moved my code from each one because each had a better debugger than the last. I fucking love Borland turbo debug. When the 386 came out and I no longer had to buy the Periscope board to put the hardware break points in, life was good.

It gave me a great foundation for writing portable code. I don't write just portable between operating systems, I write portable code within options within compilers within a single operating system.

The previous year I had spent on xenix learning C, I was writing device drivers for printers while answering the phone for tech support. While traveling around because other people had different computers than us and we wanted to port our software to them. So I got to experience a whole bunch of different architectures as I did it.

I was doing rs232 signaling ioctl calls, while I was also handling the full print queuing system and everything else that talked to everything else. We replaced lpr/lpd. I had to go in under the covers in that process. I had to be able to do it on both AT&t and BSD and everything in between. Those printers are a touchy bunch. Just like subject matter experts.

All of this was self-taught on the fly. I was a child. And it was fun!

We spent a week setting up the mini computer before opening day because it was new construction. It wasn't done on opening day.

Shit was still being patched together and there was a thousand people out there milling around with champagne.

And a very important architect. Oh my God, this guy was so fucking important. And the mayor and the architect and the head of the library board were holding court and there was a crowd and everyone was grinning and and drinking their champagne and having a blast.

Excuse me sir. None of the diagrams match the conduits. I don't know shit about reading these things and the dozen of us would really like to know when we shove a wire in there, why does it come out there? Or we shove in there and it's just gone, baby.

This was not the first time I walked up to someone very fucking important and stopped what he was doing and said. Please fix this no matter how much you dislike me. And he really disliked me.

After the explosion of the insolance of interrupting very important people at a very important moment he went down to the computer room and the group of us sat and went through those diagrams and he explained them to us and we explained why they made no sense. And we looked at some wires at some pipes and he said oops none of it matches.

Sorry about that fellas. I guess you're going to have to drill some holes all over the place and do some snaking that you weren't expecting continuously for days.

I'm not hardware. I'm software.

No. There is no distinction. There's a system. I'm responsible for it. Accept it and move on.

I have never connected an electrical connection of any sort other than a data connection. I let the professionals play with the stuff that can kill me. And I let the professionals review even the data stuff because it crosses exposed areas and can get a lightning strike or or whatever. Just a little aside to keep in mind when an electrical professional reads this.

I wasn't supposed to be snaking wires. I was supposed to be coding the mini computer.

I'm a Unix geek who's learning and I've coded the nightly batch processing and along with a team of programmers. We've coded a system for check in and check out and I've installed xenix systems all over to every fucking branch and I drive through that county for weeks and months in between the moments of me actually doing whatever little coding I was doing because I was installing every fucking system there.

I also was doing lots of r&d comparing various microcomputer architectures as compared to the mini computers because those mini computers are fucking expensive and I was going to push everything to Xenix and then Unix, it was Sun Unix in those days and then I pushed everything to Linux with the Unix systems being the back end database servers for Oracle and doing massive merge purge batches that I yanked off the mainframe.

Big fucking rows of discs. It was the days of 9 GB discs. I had a couple terabytes in rolling racks in my office generating heat. I had an office that was a 8-ftx 15 ft box. That was nothing more than shelves and a spot for me to sit. Everything else was computers and rolling racks of discs and this massive AC unit output (the rest of the unit was on the roof ) that covered the entire wall. That shit flowed right over my head and I had to wear gloves and earmuffs.

When the blackout happened and the only room in the building that was making noise was mine, the guy in charge of the mainframe said how do I do that?

What the fuck?

These were really early days. This was junk mail on the mainframe and massive selection systems and dozens of people in operations just to run that box and many more dozens of Cobol and jcl programmers.

Football fields of printers. Multiple warehouses of printers in multiple buildings connected with all our wires or whatever the technology of the day allowed. We went from an industrial park over a main highway back to another industrial Park and we had to deal with all kinds of right-of-way issues.

Largest junk mail shop in the country. And there were only three of us. And then we bought one of them and someone else bought one of us and then a Canadian one went bought us. We then went after a local but God damn those guys were slimy and good. They were both brilliant and willing to lie continuously. They won and I was out of there.. Holy shit. That was a roll-up.

I was emailing the CEO in the middle of the night as it was happening by the time it got to that point.

But at this point I'm a kid in my late twenties and there's a large company that's sitting idle and I'm the only one getting any work done.

And they were all sitting idle except me.

I explained the room and a year later I was doing some major goddamn merge purges. Before that moment he just thought I was a random asshole.

Back to 10 years before that. I had a year in, I had been coding in C and had just learned xenix and I had been doing some telecommunication support and I had been doing some minor minor rs232 patch cables.

Hardware. ADHD roundabout back to hardware. I don't do hardware.

Then I was hired into a team that was coding. The Monmouth county library system. Simple as that.

Go automate the library and all of its branches. Go put in scanners and barcodes on everything, handle the check-ins and checkouts and interlibrary loans and whatever the fuck a library does, damn it. Don't forget to handle the legal aspect. Don't let anyone ever know what anybody's search or check out history is. We had to put in our our massive Arete y fake mini computer. Yeah it was big. It ran the same goddamn chip as the goddamn Macintosh. But we were running Unix and many many users.

And dozens of 286 xenix systems at all the branches. I installed them all. And all the Telecom stuff that allowed them to communicate every night to move the data back and forth and all the code that actually did it.

I've gone through every modem speed and signaling technology in existence. While I don't claim to understand any of the math and the compression, I appreciate it. I started with a coupler.

When UUCP failed I did it with a commercial terminal package of some sort, a desktop terminal package that ran on Xenix and MS-DOS And the aritay and at the same time. It had a damn fine little scripting language. Use the fucking random tool you got and if that didn't work fine another. Another. Get that shit done because there's a deadline.

That's scripting language gave me an incredible intro to automation. Before that I could do stuff in ProCom but the language sucked. The language that came with that particular Telecom software allowed me to do all kinds of stuff that wasn't just Telecom. All the sudden. I had a serious scripting language before they really existed. Before that it was piecemeal tools.

So I ran the world with that Telecom package for a long time as I automated stuff. Then I moved on to real stuff such as Perl.

So the back end of all nightly batch was being controlled by a terminal scripting language. On dozens of Unix systems throughout the county.

Colts neck is gorgeous. If you ever get a chance to visit the colts neck library in New Jersey, my God just stop by, it's such a lovely little library.

Jack of all trades means Jack of all trades. Fucking kids today.

My Jack of all trades really means find the right people to do it the right way, or figure it out on the fly better than anybody else.

I wanted to accomplish a task. That test required welding. I spent 40 years avoiding learning welding, I've had multiple opportunities. But I needed a test done that required welding.

So I invested at least 6 months of prep before I did my first touch when I was waiting for a class to start because that one crossed into dangerous and that's not a self-taught thing to me

And here's another kids today. They have YouTube videos. They have instructions for pretty much everything. Everything.

It was books back then. Either books or find someone to teach you. Sure, I can watch the YouTube videos and figure out the various tasks, but I have to figure out the moment where I'm risking a finger or equivalent and an act appropriately. They don't do that. They do the most dangerous shit.

You assumed I did the most dangerous shit.

That's okay.

But as you can see the wires are getting boxed in. I'll have a hinged cover there soon enough.

The power strips are very lightly loaded and well just distributed. Everything is within hands reach in that pathway for individual switches because I prefer lit individual switches on a power strip. That's also where the tapo control units get plugged in.

I know what plu
gs are on what circuit at glance. Nothing will be touching the floor or in any pathway or accessible by a cat.

Take care

 

[KG1]

No one's educating anyone. He's arguing for the sake of arguing. So stead I'll try to entertain and inform.

Hey Mike, thank you very much. Hopefully you enjoy this. Hardware versus software and how I got here.

Monmouth county library

Check out the headquarters:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

I snaked a lot of cat 3 (maybe even worse, it had to handle my hand coded 232 signaling) through conduits in that building. And many others. I fucking hate snaking wires.

I had just coded software that joined the first CD-ROM database that existed in distribution commercially. I worked through various entities up to the chain from a tiny consultancy to somebody who could press CDs off the mainframe and then they taught us that and then we were pressing CDs for the library catalog. Those mainframers could blow 60 hours prepping the database to get to the point of it pressing on that CD.

Once I fucked up and asked the mainframe or a question. He said no problem. I'll have the answer for you in the morning. I did not realize what I had done. He wrote a program that churn through a file that produced a stack of paper that took four hand trucks to transport from Pennsylvania to New Jersey and the guy delivered a hand truck full of cases of paper and on the top piece of paper. The answer to my question was there.

I had chewed through $100,000 of mainframe time that night. The boss was not amused. The entire company had to renegotiate the contract because we had to pretend all you can eat but you better not fucking eat it like that.

I coded software that did database updates on the first 20 MB disc that we shoved into PCS and turned them into XTS. And it had to join with the static CD-ROM database cuz we can only update that once every 6 months. But I could get that library catalog database in real time. But I had to merge it with someone else's hundreds of thousands of lines of code that expected to never have a changing database. That shit don't change in that shit. Don't merge. You get a new one on a CD every time.

Nope. Mine showed up over the rs232 cable. In real time.

But then I had to recode all their software to understand the concept of merging the shit.

And then I had every librarian draw a map of every library. Some were multiple pages. They outlined them and they drew all the stacks and they labeled it with the Dewey decimal System.

I created an ANSI graphics terminal program that Drew a map of whatever library you're in. Hit the book finder key of whatever book you're looking at. A floating arrow will hover over the screen. Then they'll walk you the path to where the book is. If it was multiple floors you would get a zoom in as you moved in and around. I did this with fucking antsy graphics.

I plugged the database that was live to the database that was static to the pictures to the XT and I installed these PCS everywhere running dos. Ms.o.

When you ran out of memory on that thing you know what you did? You fucking jumped to zero and you reboot the box right. I stopped worrying about memory leaks in my C code because it wasn't mine, it was hundreds of thousands of lines that someone else wrote that I put a few thousand lines in, and when it ran out of memory I rebooted that box. It might happen once every 3 days. Great. I don't care if a patron is standing in front of it. There's four more boxes next to it. Move to the next box that one will be back in a minute.

I wrote this all while writing the file transfer stuff and the nightly batch processing and all kinds of other stuff. I had to wire two PCS together with a special cable and chip because I need to probe the CPU because I had to figure out where their occasionally leak was and I didn't have the source code at that level. So I had to put break points on the CPU while watching from above.

I went through at least half a dozen C compilers in about 2 years as I moved my code from each one because each had a better debugger than the last. I fucking love Borland turbo debug. When the 386 came out and I no longer had to buy the Periscope board to put the hardware break points in, life was good.

It gave me a great foundation for writing portable code. I don't write just portable between operating systems, I write portable code within options within compilers within a single operating system.

The previous year I had spent on xenix learning C, I was writing device drivers for printers while answering the phone for tech support. While traveling around because other people had different computers than us and we wanted to port our software to them. So I got to experience a whole bunch of different architectures as I did it.

I was doing rs232 signaling ioctl calls, while I was also handling the full print queuing system and everything else that talked to everything else. We replaced lpr/lpd. I had to go in under the covers in that process. I had to be able to do it on both AT&t and BSD and everything in between. Those printers are a touchy bunch. Just like subject matter experts.

All of this was self-taught on the fly. I was a child. And it was fun!

We spent a week setting up the mini computer before opening day because it was new construction. It wasn't done on opening day.

Shit was still being patched together and there was a thousand people out there milling around with champagne.

And a very important architect. Oh my God, this guy was so fucking important. And the mayor and the architect and the head of the library board were holding court and there was a crowd and everyone was grinning and and drinking their champagne and having a blast.

Excuse me sir. None of the diagrams match the conduits. I don't know shit about reading these things and the dozen of us would really like to know when we shove a wire in there, why does it come out there? Or we shove in there and it's just gone, baby.

This was not the first time I walked up to someone very fucking important and stopped what he was doing and said. Please fix this no matter how much you dislike me. And he really disliked me.

After the explosion of the insolance of interrupting very important people at a very important moment he went down to the computer room and the group of us sat and went through those diagrams and he explained them to us and we explained why they made no sense. And we looked at some wires at some pipes and he said oops none of it matches.

Sorry about that fellas. I guess you're going to have to drill some holes all over the place and do some snaking that you weren't expecting continuously for days.

I'm not hardware. I'm software.

No. There is no distinction. There's a system. I'm responsible for it. Accept it and move on.

I have never connected an electrical connection of any sort other than a data connection. I let the professionals play with the stuff that can kill me. And I let the professionals review even the data stuff because it crosses exposed areas and can get a lightning strike or or whatever. Just a little aside to keep in mind when an electrical professional reads this.

I wasn't supposed to be snaking wires. I was supposed to be coding the mini computer.

I'm a Unix geek who's learning and I've coded the nightly batch processing and along with a team of programmers. We've coded a system for check in and check out and I've installed xenix systems all over to every fucking branch and I drive through that county for weeks and months in between the moments of me actually doing whatever little coding I was doing because I was installing every fucking system there.

I also was doing lots of r&d comparing various microcomputer architectures as compared to the mini computers because those mini computers are fucking expensive and I was going to push everything to Xenix and then Unix, it was Sun Unix in those days and then I pushed everything to Linux with the Unix systems being the back end database servers for Oracle and doing massive merge purge batches that I yanked off the mainframe.

Big fucking rows of discs. It was the days of 9 GB discs. I had a couple terabytes in rolling racks in my office generating heat. I had an office that was a 8-ftx 15 ft box. That was nothing more than shelves and a spot for me to sit. Everything else was computers and rolling racks of discs and this massive AC unit output (the rest of the unit was on the roof ) that covered the entire wall. That shit flowed right over my head and I had to wear gloves and earmuffs.

When the blackout happened and the only room in the building that was making noise was mine, the guy in charge of the mainframe said how do I do that?

What the fuck?

These were really early days. This was junk mail on the mainframe and massive selection systems and dozens of people in operations just to run that box and many more dozens of Cobol and jcl programmers.

Football fields of printers. Multiple warehouses of printers in multiple buildings connected with all our wires or whatever the technology of the day allowed. We went from an industrial park over a main highway back to another industrial Park and we had to deal with all kinds of right-of-way issues.

Largest junk mail shop in the country. And there were only three of us. And then we bought one of them and someone else bought one of us and then a Canadian one went bought us. We then went after a local but God damn those guys were slimy and good. They were both brilliant and willing to lie continuously. They won and I was out of there.. Holy shit. That was a roll-up.

I was emailing the CEO in the middle of the night as it was happening by the time it got to that point.

But at this point I'm a kid in my late twenties and there's a large company that's sitting idle and I'm the only one getting any work done.

And they were all sitting idle except me.

I explained the room and a year later I was doing some major goddamn merge purges. Before that moment he just thought I was a random asshole.

Back to 10 years before that. I had a year in, I had been coding in C and had just learned xenix and I had been doing some telecommunication support and I had been doing some minor minor rs232 patch cables.

Hardware. ADHD roundabout back to hardware. I don't do hardware.

Then I was hired into a team that was coding. The Monmouth county library system. Simple as that.

Go automate the library and all of its branches. Go put in scanners and barcodes on everything, handle the check-ins and checkouts and interlibrary loans and whatever the fuck a library does, damn it. Don't forget to handle the legal aspect. Don't let anyone ever know what anybody's search or check out history is. We had to put in our our massive Arete y fake mini computer. Yeah it was big. It ran the same goddamn chip as the goddamn Macintosh. But we were running Unix and many many users.

And dozens of 286 xenix systems at all the branches. I installed them all. And all the Telecom stuff that allowed them to communicate every night to move the data back and forth and all the code that actually did it.

I've gone through every modem speed and signaling technology in existence. While I don't claim to understand any of the math and the compression, I appreciate it. I started with a coupler.

When UUCP failed I did it with a commercial terminal package of some sort, a desktop terminal package that ran on Xenix and MS-DOS And the aritay and at the same time. It had a damn fine little scripting language. Use the fucking random tool you got and if that didn't work fine another. Another. Get that shit done because there's a deadline.

That's scripting language gave me an incredible intro to automation. Before that I could do stuff in ProCom but the language sucked. The language that came with that particular Telecom software allowed me to do all kinds of stuff that wasn't just Telecom. All the sudden. I had a serious scripting language before they really existed. Before that it was piecemeal tools.

So I ran the world with that Telecom package for a long time as I automated stuff. Then I moved on to real stuff such as Perl.

So the back end of all nightly batch was being controlled by a terminal scripting language. On dozens of Unix systems throughout the county.

Colts neck is gorgeous. If you ever get a chance to visit the colts neck library in New Jersey, my God just stop by, it's such a lovely little library.

Jack of all trades means Jack of all trades. Fucking kids today.

My Jack of all trades really means find the right people to do it the right way, or figure it out on the fly better than anybody else.

I wanted to accomplish a task. That test required welding. I spent 40 years avoiding learning welding, I've had multiple opportunities. But I needed a test done that required welding.

So I invested at least 6 months of prep before I did my first touch when I was waiting for a class to start because that one crossed into dangerous and that's not a self-taught thing to me

And here's another kids today. They have YouTube videos. They have instructions for pretty much everything. Everything.

It was books back then. Either books or find someone to teach you. Sure, I can watch the YouTube videos and figure out the various tasks, but I have to figure out the moment where I'm risking a finger or equivalent and an act appropriately. They don't do that. They do the most dangerous shit.

You assumed I did the most dangerous shit.

That's okay.

But as you can see the wires are getting boxed in. I'll have a hinged cover there soon enough.

The power strips are very lightly loaded and well just distributed. Everything is within hands reach in that pathway for individual switches because I prefer lit individual switches on a power strip. That's also where the tapo control units get plugged in.

I know what plu
gs are on what circuit at glance. Nothing will be touching the floor or in any pathway or accessible by a cat.

Take care

Who's arguing we all pull air not push, just science!

 

[ChairmanFester]

1) Fan vs. system curves


A fan supplies a pressure rise that (to a good approximation) looks like

Flow Qhappens where this equals the system drop:

with K the sum of duct/elbow losses, ρ\rhoρ air density, A duct area.


2) Filter pressure drop depends on face velocity
For porous/fibrous media,

is the average of the local face velocity to the power n.

• If the velocity is uniform (nice, even suction through the face),
  
  
• If the velocity is non-uniform (jet and swirl from a fan blowing into the filter), then by Jensen’s inequality
  
  
  
  Now if you wonder why this filter idea is in there, that is your test. That is numbers on your fan under load. This is why your airflow is wrong, and I had to go look at all this shit myself because I made the mistake two grows ago, however I have corrected.
  
  

So any uneven approach flow makes the same average flow require more ΔP across the filter.


3) Discharge “system effect” when pushing
Mounting a restriction right on the outlet of a fan adds an extra loss term at the fan itself (swirl/jet not recovered). Treat it as

---

A concrete (but general) example​

 

[Florida_Mike]

So that ten percent in heat say sixty to a hundred watts between led and hps.....

Must be why one single light in a tent still needs the same cooling led or hos.

The amount of watts of heat is barely anything go turn on a fifty watt heater and see.

And then cool tubes, wow we sucked out how many watts of heat, now go find a heater of that wattage.

The heat from a light easy to exhaust it's not rocket science at those small wattages.

a cool tube doesn't remove light, the plant feels the same heat from the light, the air is easily removed.

I'm not sure you understand but I really don't care as many run bare bulb hps in every American state with no heat issues or needing a cool tube but there are obvious those like you who think the light fittings and bulb are simply too hot lol.

Your understanding of light isn't great here neither the power of heat.

Let's expand that onto a thread so hps growers can tell you a cool tube makes zero difference to their grow. You fail to take into account the hps growers who aren't crying about heat.

Damn dude, that made little to no sense. I've got science, physics and real world experience behind me. What have you got, other than ill-informed, baseless claims?

It's you who doesn't understand heat transference. If you're not concerned with, or have, heat issues; you're not trying hard enough. I don't know of any growers who don't consider heat mitigation a priority. I can't even grow in the summer months where I'm at bc of excessive heat.

Again let me see you bare handed, grab hold of any lit light bulb; from an auto tail light bulb, up to a 1,000w hps. You will burn yourself. If plant matter touches that hps bulb or led driver, it will die and turn brown

There is a reason why it's important to remove any oily finger prints from hid bulbs; it's bc the bulbs get frkn hot, and finger prints can cause hot spots that can weaken and crack, or even cause the bulb to shatter. At the very least, it will make them burn hotter and shorten their lifespan.

Here's what AI says about your last statement. I said I was growing weary of this debate:


Yeah, I can see why you’re growing weary. That comment is full of misunderstandings about basic physics and heat transfer, so let’s break it down point by point in simple terms:

1. Watts In = Watts Out (Eventually as Heat)

A 600W HPS or LED pulls 600 watts of electrical power.

Almost all electrical energy ends up as heat eventually — whether directly (infrared radiation, convection) or indirectly (light absorbed by surfaces, then converted to heat).

LEDs may be slightly more efficient, but the difference is small (maybe 10–20%). The total heat load into the room from a 600W light is still roughly 600W either way.

So the claim that "10% in heat" doesn’t make sense — there’s no magic ‘extra heat’ coming from HPS. It’s all the same energy balance.

2. Why HPS Feels Hotter

HPS bulbs run very hot at the surface (arc tube temperatures can exceed 2,000°C) and emit infrared (IR) radiation.

IR travels through air and directly heats surfaces (plants, walls, your skin) before air even warms up.

LEDs emit far less IR, so air warms more evenly and less intensely; heat is mostly at the heat sinks, which can be cooled more easily.

That’s why bare HPS bulbs “feel” hotter even if the wattage is the same.

3. Cool Tubes Absolutely Work

A cool tube isolates the bulb and ducts hot air straight out before it mixes with the room air.

This prevents convective and radiant heat from accumulating in the grow space.

If they “made zero difference,” commercial growers wouldn’t spend thousands on them.

Real-world data:

A 600W HPS without cooling easily pushes temps 10–15°F higher in a small tent.

With a cool tube or air-cooled hood, you can cut that by half or more because you remove the heat before it spreads.

4. One Light Still Needs Cooling

Saying “one light in a tent doesn’t need cooling” is wrong.

Small tent + 600W light + little airflow = temperature spikes.

Many small growers actually switch to LEDs just to reduce heat load because cooling small rooms is hard.

5. Why Some People Don’t Notice Heat Problems

If someone grows in a cold basement or big drafty garage, heat might not be an issue.

But in a small, sealed tent in summer, 600W of heat quickly overwhelms ventilation.

Claiming “HPS growers never complain about heat” is false — it’s one of the most common problems on grow forums.

Bottom Line

Watts in = watts out as heat, but HPS dumps it as intense IR radiation + convection.

Cool tubes work because they prevent that heat from ever entering the grow room air.

LEDs distribute heat differently, which makes cooling easier, even at the same wattage.

Whether heat is a problem depends on room size, airflow, and ambient temps, not just watts.

 

[TestTime]

It's whatever. These plants lose 30-35% of total THC per gram grown. If you're fine with 3-4 times as much everything, translating eventually to COST, and flavor destruction doesn't matter, what you have is (and this is an example) one third the amount of hash oil no matter how you cut it. Traditional grows, per gram by any metric, kill it. The numbers I'm writing are loose ballpark, as an illustration and not accurate to the decimal.
Justify this in light of your own goal. My unit of THC costs me 1. Yours costs 3. It's THC, yours and mine are the same.
Unless you have a terpine blend and cana-compound blend you want to have a lab quantify, we have no thing to discuss. This lacks concrete data.
Why is the active ingredients in THIS cannabis 3x better per gram?

Thank you very much for actually looking for a bit and engagement.

I'd be happy to send it away to a lab. I've already asked for a suggestions. It's definitely something I'll do.

Everything to follow is not to you directly, but it's a spot to drop it. I am not being hostile to you and I curse a lot in my default dictation and I just let it flow. Please don't take it harshly.

The long rambles before covered pretty much all those questions because this is proof of concept. This is shit that was thrown together. This is nothing I would ever recommend in any type of home or commercial operation.

Please can we get past that. What you see is not what you get at the end if you do this. You get whatever YOU put together.

It's either foxtails or it's not. People have to determine that for themselves. It's either acceptable growth or it's not. It's either burned or it's not, but it's not burned by temperature so you can just get past that.

This is a cold fucking grow. Washington state. By the Sea. Perfect weather. The rest of you are fucked. No matter where you are in the world, you have no idea how amazingly nice it is here.

I've been cooling goddamn Seagate cheetah discs from 40 years ago. Racks and racks in tight enclosures. They generate a lot more heat than these fucking lights. These lights ain't nothing.

Go check out the pictures above and you'll see the shot from the road down to the Sea.

How many times do I have to fucking say this.

There are no temperature issues.

Moving on. I already bought the lights and harvested plenty of what I consider smokable butt. Simple as that. The lights have been paid for themselves. Many many times over. They were $109 a piece. These were cheap lights. Stop talking about how much money I spent on lights. It's a sunk cost.

Electricity is safe, well distributed, runs through many lightly loaded circuits in a well-controlled fashion, and costs a hundred bucks a month.

This is $100 a month grow that gives me a $300,000 amount of oil to rub on my joints over 3 years. Nobody's ever had a cost-effective grow as cost effective as this one.

If you can't get your head around those numbers, please go away.

This is cost effective while simultaneously wasting an immense amount of light.

I know. I know. How many times do I have to say I know?

If you determine you want this type of growth you got to find the plant and you got to trigger it. I'm showing you it can be done.

Can we just get past the variety of bullshit we already covered.

I will attempt to create a concise doc but I'm in the gather phase right now. I'm triggering people to look and ask questions and tell me a shit. Good. Tell me it's shit. I'll figure out why or I'll tell you why it's not, but I don't see the world the way you do. You have to tell me it's shit first.

Take care

 

[Florida_Mike]

1) Fan vs. system curves


A fan supplies a pressure rise that (to a good approximation) looks like
View attachment 2519456

Flow Qhappens where this equals the system drop:

View attachment 2519457
with K the sum of duct/elbow losses, ρ\rhoρ air density, A duct area.


2) Filter pressure drop depends on face velocity
For porous/fibrous media,

View attachment 2519458

is the average of the local face velocity to the power n.

• If the velocity is uniform (nice, even suction through the face),
  View attachment 2519459
• If the velocity is non-uniform (jet and swirl from a fan blowing into the filter), then by Jensen’s inequalityView attachment 2519460
  
  Now if you wonder why this filter idea is in there, that is your test. That is numbers on your fan under load. This is why your airflow is wrong, and I had to go look at all this shit myself because I made the mistake two grows ago, however I have corrected.
  View attachment 2519461

So any uneven approach flow makes the same average flow require more ΔP across the filter.


3) Discharge “system effect” when pushing
Mounting a restriction right on the outlet of a fan adds an extra loss term at the fan itself (swirl/jet not recovered). Treat it as

View attachment 2519462

---

A concrete (but general) example​

View attachment 2519463

Gat'damn bro! I wanted to love, laugh and cry all at once with that one

 

[TestTime]

It's whatever. These plants lose 30-35% of total THC per gram grown. If you're fine with 3-4 times as much everything, translating eventually to COST, and flavor destruction doesn't matter, what you have is (and this is an example) one third the amount of hash oil no matter how you cut it. Traditional grows, per gram by any metric, kill it. The numbers I'm writing are loose ballpark, as an illustration and not accurate to the decimal.
Justify this in light of your own goal. My unit of THC costs me 1. Yours costs 3. It's THC, yours and mine are the same.
Unless you have a terpine blend and cana-compound blend you want to have a lab quantify, we have no thing to discuss. This lacks concrete data.
Why is the active ingredients in THIS cannabis 3x better per gram?

Hold a second. I just did a quick reread. Absolutely no concept of THC per gram. That's just silly.

I'm simply saying I'm getting better density than any plant out there. Density of plant material that is covered with trichomes, whether that plant material is leaves that you think you don't want, but I really do, or it's those shells that fall off that are awesome, or it's the pistils, the plan is 100% THC from a volumetric perspective, it's simply got a structure of leaves that it happens to be hanging out on. Very very tiny leaves.

That's it. More plant material holding more trichones. It's scaffolding. That's it. Grow it continuously, or at least as long as you can, and keep it dense.

The initial? Oh no, it's foxtails and it's light and fluffy.

I really am done with so I don't give a shit.

I've gotten to the point where I can barely crush it when it hardens and then I have to rip it apart and work to push it to the next level. There is no fluff other than in some people's heads.

It's not dry.

Most of it feels overly wet but it feels slightly fragile on the really thick tendrils, it feels kind of dry but not dry for stuff falling off, I mean I've got really thick goddamn plant material that feels a bit spongy and I would like it to be either hard when I never want to do anything with it again or I want it be soft because I'm moving this shit around.

So it's thick enough and hard enough to snap at certain moments due to the pressure on the underside of whatever I'm bending. It's thick and fucking hard and a bit wet in the dense areas in the armpits.

That's why I say it requires a hell of a touch. You got to balance that pressure for movement and not snapping because it's thick.

It's the armpits I got to watch out for. It's the armpits where it is really solid, dense and wet. I'll probably put some directed air flow at those

 

[ChairmanFester]

Here is where we get into radiation again. Heat is not the only radiation, nor the only way to burn a plant.
Chemical imbalance burns a plant. Hot photosynthesis ahead of the ability to remove wastes from tissues burns plants.
Photo-chemical damage includes:
UV-A (315–400 nm): bronzing and brittling
UV-B (280–315 nm): stunting and corkscrewing
UV-C (100–280 nm): SPOTTED TISSUE NECROSIS HOLY SHIT THINK ABOUT THIS INSIDE YOU
“blue/violet” (≈400–450 nm): nitrogen wash out
red/far-red (≈600–750 nm): rapid tissue free radical oxygen build up

 

[ChairmanFester]

Isn't it obvious that you're over growing and over spending and pulling your hair out for LESS THC and trying to beat that with volume. This is an expensive closed loop.

 

[Florida_Mike]

Pull air you mean, we generally put the carbon filter at the start and you'll through.

How is everything you say completely backwards!

My 4x8 has the 8" filter and blower inside the tent - mistake bc I lost precious head room.

My 4x4 has the filter and blower outside the tent and works perfectly

Either is fine depending on your desired outcome, imo