High THCV strains and breeding them

[MrToad]

As probably already discussed, Doug's Varin was the product of a Hermie...

I'm guessing that the recessive traits found in some of these THCV strains might pose some surprises. (Perhaps not the most desirable traits in a traditional sense)

I would think the best plan of attack for nailing down the best THCV strain, would be to take 2 cuts of each of the females produced with the simple intention of backing up the genetics...Put all of the moms into flower...Monitor the trichomes as normal with the intention of methodically harvesting buds at regular intervals starting around 9 weeks.The intention, harvest a bud from each plant (from similar locations on plant)on each respective week..

Let say 4 samples/ plant..5 plants..20 samples

Let them cure for a couple week...an simply sample and write down effects...
Compare/contrast...
Point of all of this is to save some money...

Compare plants...One feel stronger or perhaps more "racy" or appetite suppressing than the next...?

Point would be to test perhaps the top 3 candidates?

I'm guessing most of us are prognosticating a higher THCV content in buds harvested at 11 weeks as opposed to 9 weeks..

A simple strategy such as this should help..

I'm thinkings that working with cutting will be the starting point until testing is done at which point creating some S1's would be prudent security to save genetics of the best plant (s) or expand potential breeding collaboration.

Just some thoughts

 

[Skeptik]

I guess I don't understand what you mean.

So maybe explain your aversion to an S1. I just don't see the downside.

 

[Milson]

So maybe explain your aversion to an S1. I just don't see the downside.

You lose significant vigor to my understanding.

 

[MIMedGrower]

You lose significant vigor to my understanding.

that is not my experience. They tend to put out phenos with similar vigor to the mom. I never thought hey this plant seems slow.

 

[Milson]

that is not my experience. They tend to put out phenos with similar vigor to the mom. I never thought hey this plant seems slow.

Perhaps that is in reality the case. My understanding of the literature suggests i should expect some pretty severe depression in a selfed plant and what i have seen in grow journals etc has not contradicted that.

Below is an example proposing possible mechanisms.

From Simmonds.

And an answer to a question: what is an allele of a gene and what makes it dom or recessive or in between?

 

[Skeptik]

You lose significant vigor to my understanding.

Correct, for large populations of individuals a significant number will have undesirable phenotypes. But an S1 can also produce a significant number of offspring that have enhanced desirable phenotypes due to the pairing of desirable recessive genes. IBL S1s in particular, due to the breeding out of undesirable traits, usually produce offspring with little phenotypic variance from the parent. For the seeds Red has, the Victory seeds in particular, I suspect they've been in Dutch Passion's breeding lab long enough to be close to IBL, but we'll see.

I'm stoned enough that this may not make sense. Apologies, if so....

 

[Skeptik]

As probably already discussed, Doug's Varin was the product of a Hermie...

I'm guessing that the recessive traits found in some of these THCV strains might pose some surprises. (Perhaps not the most desirable traits in a traditional sense)

I would think the best plan of attack for nailing down the best THCV strain, would be to take 2 cuts of each of the females produced with the simple intention of backing up the genetics...Put all of the moms into flower...Monitor the trichomes as normal with the intention of methodically harvesting buds at regular intervals starting around 9 weeks.The intention, harvest a bud from each plant (from similar locations on plant)on each respective week..

Let say 4 samples/ plant..5 plants..20 samples

Let them cure for a couple week...an simply sample and write down effects...
Compare/contrast...
Point of all of this is to save some money...

Compare plants...One feel stronger or perhaps more "racy" or appetite suppressing than the next...?

Point would be to test perhaps the top 3 candidates?

I'm guessing most of us are prognosticating a higher THCV content in buds harvested at 11 weeks as opposed to 9 weeks..

A simple strategy such as this should help..

I'm thinkings that working with cutting will be the starting point until testing is done at which point creating some S1's would be prudent security to save genetics of the best plant (s) or expand potential breeding collaboration.

Just some thoughts

This is nicely thought out and detailed -- not surprised; I've previously been exposed to @MrToad OCD tendencies...

 

[Marzcanna]

Good thread im in search of CBG-A & CBC rich strains

 

[MIMedGrower]

@Milson and @Skeptik does how well the plant has been bred affect the vigor issue with s-1’s.

to clarify. A simple pollen chuch vs a 300 plant multiple run hunt.

 

[TripsRabbit]

Normally clone then mom tent. That process will need to change if there are dads in there.

You can put moms and dads in same tent as long as they are in veg.

 

[Moe.Red]

February 1, 2021 ~ the date we came to a consensus of the way forward


I have to be honest, a lot of what you guys are discussing is over my head. It's one thing to learn this by reading some books and some threads, and a completely different thing to truly internalize and understand. For me, that will only come with hands on experience. So I'm gonna let @Milson and @Skeptik reach a consensus with input from everyone else and do what the team thinks here. I might as well shorten my learning curve dramatically by just following the recipe and getting hands on in the process.

it probably makes sense for us to state the goal of this project out loud, I'm not sure everyone is on the same page. For me, my goal is:

Phase 1
Produce a THCV rich tent
Harvest THCV for testing on patients, flower, extract, and separated by molecule.
Share those genetics with anyone who wants to contribute.
Continue to work with these genetics to test light, time, environmental variables, timing of THCV synthesis, etc. for others follow this path to have a base knowledge of what works. Publish all results, including mistakes.

Phase 2
Using results from phase 1, work with landrace and other genetics to improve what we have and produce a super mom. Perhaps a THCV of 10% is achievable. For me, I would prefer no THC and 10%+ THCV to make THCV extraction cleaner.

Now phase 1 gets blown up if THC Victory is a bust. Then both tents become engaged in phase 2 I suppose.

What are your goals if different from mine?


Let me be more specific about what I can do:

12 plants in flower
12 plants up to 18" not in flower - this means at any given time I can have 6 total moms and dads.
12 plants under 18, so clones, seedlings etc. This means 6 babies in the Veg tent getting ready and 6 more in the cloning machine.

I have 2 4x8 flower tents set up for 6 plants each.
I have a 4x8 veg tent set up for 6
I have a 4x4 mom tent set up for 4 (could be 6 if I switch to dirt.)
I have a 2x4 that was a pre-veg tent set up for 6 that got converted to a mushroom tent a while ago. Once the lions mane is done in there that could be used again.

The only way for me to get more plants legally is if i go get my own card too, which would mean 18 18 and 18 plants instead of 12 12 12. I would prefer not to do that unless it becomes necessary to our project. This is a personal use only setup, I don't need or want more plants, just a few of the correct ones! I think it can be avoided. Hopefully there is another grower that can take some of these clones and pollen I produce to further the work. If you are interested in that, PM me.

 

[Milson]

@Milson and @Skeptik does how well the plant has been bred affect the vigor issue with s-1’s.

to clarify. A simple pollen chuch vs a 300 plant multiple run hunt.

I don't know enough to answer that. My supposition is that it would matter somewhat....but you aren't getting an elite that way. In my opinion and to my understanding.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I don't know enough to answer that. My supposition is that it would matter somewhat....but you aren't getting an elite that way. In my opinion and to my understanding.

but the seeds from a pack or a clone only is already starting with an elite with pared down genetics. Some classic strains have but 3 phenotypes.

i think you are assuming starting with weak genetics trying to pull certain qualities. Most of that work has already been done by the original breeder or finder.

No one is breeding with a plant count anyway. Just chucking.

 

[Skeptik]

@Milson and @Skeptik does how well the plant has been bred affect the vigor issue with s-1’s.

to clarify. A simple pollen chuch vs a 300 plant multiple run hunt.

Sorry, I don't understand the question. Are you asking if purposeful breeding enhances vigor? If so, then in general, the answer is yes, but it depends on the breeding skills of the grower.

 

[Milson]

but the seeds from a pack or a clone only is already starting with an elite with pared down genetics. Some classic strains have but 3 phenotypes.

i think you are assuming starting with weak genetics trying to pull certain qualities. Most of that work has already been done by the original breeder or finder.

No one is breeding with a plant count anyway. Just chucking.

I don't know the exact mechanism for the depression, but my understanding is you're going to get depression with an outbreeding plant like cannabis.

I'm not saying this makes them useless. Just saying an elite almost by definition is going to have substantial hybrid vigor left and selfing an outbreeding plant is going to lose a lot of hybrid vigor to my understanding.

Same problem as with bx, etc. Just a matter of degree.

To my understanding.

 

[Skeptik]

I don't know the exact mechanism for the depression, but my understanding is you're going to get depression with an outbreeding plant like cannabis.
<snip>

The mechanism is the same as the one that discourages you from having offspring with your sister, or any close relative -- a limited, familial gene pool significantlly increases the liklihood of pairing recessive or co-dominant, undesirable genes. That's it. There's no mysterious process that *changes* the genetic basis. Before I get jumped on, yes, I'm aware that epigenetic factors can change gene expression, but that's what epigenetics are about: *expression,* not changing the gene.

I should also add that repeated inbreeding and selection is the way to and IBL.

I'd also point out, that inbreeding is a primary tool of breeders. If we want a killer cross that has huge potential, here you go:

Select optimal plants, then:

THC-Vic x Balkhi (or another African sativa)

Select the best from those offspring, and back-cross to the THC-Vic parent. Those are the seeds I want. Oh, baby, OH BABY.... excuse me, I have to change my underwear.

 

[Milson]

The mechanism is the same as the one that discourages you from having offspring with your sister, or any close relative -- a limited, familial gene pool significantlly increases the liklihood of pairing recessive or co-dominant, undesirable genes. That's it. There's no mysterious process that *changes* the genetic basis. Before I get jumped on, yes, I'm aware that epigenetic factors can change gene expression, but that's what epigenetics are about: *expression,* not changing the gene.

I should also add that repeated inbreeding and selection is the way to and IBL.

I'd also point out, that inbreeding is a primary tool of breeders. If we want a killer cross that has huge potential, here you go:

Select optimal plants, then:

THC-Vic x Balkhi (or another African sativa)

Select the best from those offspring, and back-cross to the THC-Vic parent. Those are the seeds I want. Oh, baby, OH BABY.... excuse me, I have to change my underwear.

I would select the best THC-Victory mom I could find and hit that with the best dad I could find in another strain and then take the best two fems from that F1 and reverse one of them to go digging in the "F2s" of that for an elite.

The bx to the original THC-Victory fem might lead to higher THCV on average but I think the potential in the F2s is higher.

 

[Skeptik]

I would select the best THC-Victory mom I could find and hit that with the best dad I could find in another strain and then take the best two fems from that F1 and reverse one of them to go digging in the "F2s" of that for an elite.

The bx to the original THC-Victory fem might lead to higher THCV on average but I think the potential in the F2s is higher.

I agree that the F2 has a high potential for a variety of phenos, and some good ones at that, but the solid gold recombinants will come from the back cross. No question.

 

[Milson]

I agree that the F2 has a high potential for a variety of phenos, and some good ones at that, but the solid gold recombinants will come from the back cross. No question.

You're talking about this with a whole lot of certainty. Sounds like you have it figured out pretty well.

 

[Kanzeon]

It might be a good idea to run two parallel lines and breed them together down the road.

For example, something like (THCV x Malawi) x (THCV x Ethiopian) bred in parallel and then crossed once high THCV phenos of both were found/isolated and suitable males were found.

If the end goals are solely high THCV with minimal loss of vigor in offspring, it makes sense to work each line separately for a few generations and then cross (selfed or pollinated with a suitable male) high THCV phenos of each so there there's some hybrid vigor. That way even the recessive genes are of high-THCV plants and there is a lower chance that other cannabinoids show up down the line. Less selfing would then hypothetically be involved in obtaining homozygosity in the final seed, if that's desired.