How long do mycorrhiza stay viable in unused soil?

[Blaze]

So I was wondering about this today. I've got some potting soil I mixed up about 4 days ago to transplant some clones into. I mixed in some myco's like I always do and wetted down the soil. I ended up not using all of it - had about a gallon left over. I ended up using this a few days later on a larger mother plant that needed to be transplanted. Would the myco's still be viable at that point, since they sat in unused soil with no plants to support them for several days? I added some fresh myco's just in case but I was curious if this was redundant.

I ask because I know at least with brewing ACT, if you use mycos, you have to add them at the very end of the cycle, or even mix them in after the cycle is over. If I remember right after about 4 hours, if they have not come into contact with a plant root, they die. They are symbiotic organisms and the NEED plant roots to stay alive. Obviously the are dormant when they are in the granular or powdered form that these products are usually sold as. So what is is that actually "wakes them up" or activates them, or what ever you want to call it? Getting exposed to H20? Coming into contact with plant roots? How long do they remain viable in soil without coming into contact with plant roots?

 

[mrbong73]

Blaze,
It's my understanding that the spores will not be "activated" until a root comes in contact with it or vice versa.
That is why it is beneficial to put the spores directly on the root whenever possible and/or directly into the planting hole.
mrb

 

[delamountain]

mrbong I was told the same thing line the potting hole with mycos is the best way if they dont come into contact with root quickly they are no good.I was also told soil that claims to have mycos added are pretty much worthless.The amount of mycos needed to be added to the bag label is very low and most do not come in contact with roots.I was told this by multiple people in the grow industry.

 

[mrbong73]

delamountain,
I would agree that the myco added to bagged soil products is of questionable value.
I will typically apply whichever myco product directly to the roots while transplanting clones from beer cups to smart pots.
I basically just hold the clone upside down over the smart pot and sprinkle it all over the exposed roots and let the excess fall into the planting hole.
Then plant.

mrb

 

[dextr0]

Heres a post I made that involves the regeneration of mycorrhizae. It makes no sense to say it would not be reusable and just dies off unless there are roots. If that were tru u could not get mycorrhizae granules. They do need time to produce spores tho. Check out the link.

 

[Udyana Peace]

So I was wondering about this today. I've got some potting soil I mixed up about 4 days ago to transplant some clones into. I mixed in some myco's like I always do and wetted down the soil. I ended up not using all of it - had about a gallon left over. I ended up using this a few days later on a larger mother plant that needed to be transplanted. Would the myco's still be viable at that point, since they sat in unused soil with no plants to support them for several days? I added some fresh myco's just in case but I was curious if this was redundant.

I ask because I know at least with brewing ACT, if you use mycos, you have to add them at the very end of the cycle, or even mix them in after the cycle is over. If I remember right after about 4 hours, if they have not come into contact with a plant root, they die. They are symbiotic organisms and the NEED plant roots to stay alive. Obviously the are dormant when they are in the granular or powdered form that these products are usually sold as. So what is is that actually "wakes them up" or activates them, or what ever you want to call it? Getting exposed to H20? Coming into contact with plant roots? How long do they remain viable in soil without coming into contact with plant roots?

Blaze

Dr. Mike Amaranthus (founder of Mycorrhizal Applications) has an article in this month's issue of Acres USA - the sustainable agriculture magazine. Many of your questions might be answered in his piece.

As far as the amount added to potting soils I can only give you an answer on one product line from Down-To-Earth and in 1 cubic yard (27 bags of soil) they add a whopping total of 8 oz. of the general horticulture product from Mycorrhizal Applications - i.e. endo, ecto and trichoderma spores.

Heh...........

UP

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Only endo-mycorrhiza seem to be of any use to cannabis, so concentrating on products that list more endo than ecto would be beneficial to anyone researching products.

If the mycorrihiza act in symbiosis with the cannabis in the same way that rhizobia forms a symbiotic bond with legumes then the bacterial spores could remain valid for as long as light doesn't reach them. The legume's send out their roots which develop slowly until they find some rhizobia in the soil, at which point they begin their amazing nitrogen-fixing trick. Adding rhizobial spores to legumes begins at planting when the seeds are washed in a solution of spores and water during prep. Soaking the ground in the immediate area of planting is also helpful, as the quicker they are exposed the better.

In other words, add your spores as early as possible, don't expose to light or oxygen, and you'll do well. Multiple applications will do no harm if you're not confident, though.

 

[Blaze]

If the mycorrihiza act in symbiosis with the cannabis in the same way that rhizobia forms a symbiotic bond with legumes then the bacterial spores could remain valid for as long as light doesn't reach them.

In other words, add your spores as early as possible, don't expose to light or oxygen, and you'll do well. Multiple applications will do no harm if you're not confident, though.

OK, well if that is the case mine may have not been viable. The unused soil sat in an uncovered container, so it was exposed to light and oxygen for several days.

dextr0 - so are the plant roots not directly needed for mycos to live? I was under the impression that when you got mycos in granules they were in a stasis of sorts, and not really biologically active. I've seen several sources that stated that mycos could not live for very long w/o plant roots to support them. Are these incorrect statements?

 

[dextr0]

dextr0 - so are the plant roots not directly needed for mycos to live? I was under the impression that when you got mycos in granules they were in a stasis of sorts, and not really biologically active. I've seen several sources that stated that mycos could not live for very long w/o plant roots to support them. Are these incorrect statements?

The endomycorrhizal fungi generally associated with the roots of agricultural crops are in the Class Zygomycetes to which the common black bread mold belongs. However, these fungi are obligate symbionts and cannot be cultivated outside the living roots of plants. Their colonization is internal t o the root and cannot be seen without staining and microscopy. The common genera are Glomus and Gigaspora producing large, distinctive azygospores that can be wet sieved from the soil. These spore germinate in the presence on plant roots and infect the outer cortical cells. However, the cell is not killed and although the plant cell wall is penetrated the cell membrane is not disrupted. The endomycorrhizal fungus produces a highly branched hyphal structure called an arbuscule within the plant cell by invaginating its cell membrane. This infection creates an absorptive structure with a v ery high surface area of transfer for nutrients between the plant and the fungus.

The plant usually has few root hairs in this area and the fungus provides the intimate contact with the soil through fine extraradical hyphae which extend several millimeters beyond the root. This extensive hyphal network enhances absorption of water and nutrients, particularly phosphorus, and promotes growth of the plant. In exchange for the phosphorus which is transferred to the plant, the fungus obtains sugars and other organics vital to its growth and reproduction. These exchanges have been verified by various histochemical studies and the use of nutrients labeled with radioisoto pes. As the association begins to senesce, the fungus produces vesiculate storage bodies on and within the root cells and produces the distinctive asexual spores. Sexual reproduction has rarely been observed for these fungi.

 

[Seamaiden]

Only endo-mycorrhiza seem to be of any use to cannabis, so concentrating on products that list more endo than ecto would be beneficial to anyone researching products.

If the mycorrihiza act in symbiosis with the cannabis in the same way that rhizobia forms a symbiotic bond with legumes then the bacterial spores could remain valid for as long as light doesn't reach them. The legume's send out their roots which develop slowly until they find some rhizobia in the soil, at which point they begin their amazing nitrogen-fixing trick. Adding rhizobial spores to legumes begins at planting when the seeds are washed in a solution of spores and water during prep. Soaking the ground in the immediate area of planting is also helpful, as the quicker they are exposed the better.

In other words, add your spores as early as possible, don't expose to light or oxygen, and you'll do well. Multiple applications will do no harm if you're not confident, though.

Indeed, except that's about as far as the science seems to have taken us. By that I mean that it's not using a more holistic, or whole, approach.

Please allow me to try to explain myself better. Based upon my (admittedly limited) experience using soil food web techniques and experimenting with other, non-live growing media and methodology, I have found that problems arise when a full suite or organisms is not present--namely pests and the diseases vectored. So, my thinking is along these lines; while cannabis may not use or need the given organism directly, it still provides a much-needed benefit for us in total by providing a measure of protection. I'm thinking rather specifically of things like Trichoderma fungi, which people love to say aren't needed, yet it is these very fungi that can act as predators of pests.

It totally reminds me of why I got into capturing and relocating rattlesnakes. Does it make ANY sense at all to kill the natural predator of the vermin you don't want, and then force yourself to A) Live with the vermin, B) Use other methods to control said vermin? Not in my world.

Not to mention, there is still so much to learn. I feel we shouldn't discount just because we don't know that a thing is beneficial directly using current methods of observation.

I wouldn't be surprised if myco fungi are a bit like nitrifying bacteria, and could be the sort of thing that can establish itself out of "thin air" if simply given the proper media, living conditions and food.

Blaze, I recounted my own experience for you elsewhere. :)

 

[mrbong73]

In the book Teaming with Microbes the author states regarding mycorrhizal fungi:
"Mycorrhizal fungi spores must come into direct contact with roots within 24 hours of being exposed to moisture in order to grow." (p162)

There may be some info somewhere to contradict this but I wanted to put it out there.

mrb

 

[dextr0]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Du...q=how long do mycorrhizal spores live&f=false

"Both spores and sporocarps may be stored in dry soil at 4 C or room temperature for at least 1 to 2 years, although viability differs considerably among species."

------------------another site---------------------------

How long do mycorrhizal fungi survive in soil?

The spores of VA mycorrhizae are highly resistant and can live for many years in the absence of plant roots. When roots come near, they germinate and colonize the roots. Thus the shelf life of Agbio-Endos/Ectos can be years in some cases, but always at least two years.
http://www.agbio-inc.com/mycorrhizae-faq.html

 

[mrbong73]

I didn't see anything that specifically deals with moisture affecting the spores.

But if you think about what happens in nature it would seem that the spores can/do survive after a rain.

Interesting. hard to say for sure.

Basically, if you put the spores directly on the roots or in the area where roots are sure to grow, at the earliest possible moment, you will have the best chance to take advantage of the association.

mrb

 

[Blaze]

Cool, thanks for the input guys. I have a much better understanding of how the mycros work now, much appreciated.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Interesting topic that I've delved into and left w/o a satisfactory answer more than once. (Can you relate?)

This is where I'm at now- may not be here tomorrow, in which case I'll post a modification. lol

First off, barring future discovery, I've come to the position that ectomychorizae are specialists and *extremely* host specific. Many forms have apparently co-evolved w/ a particular tree or shrub, (or group), in a forest and woodland environment. If there's a ecto symbiant for cannabis, it's yet to be discovered. I'm sure many of you have already gotten this- it didn't come easily to me and just took me awhile to feel comfortable enough w/ my findings to put the subject to rest. There are studies of endo and ecto working together in the same rhizosphere, in fact on the same root, but always on a species that the ecto has a relationship with.

I look at the mechanics of endo application similarly to the way I look at those of a non mobile nutrient like P. If you broadcast P on the soil surface, it's going to sit there and only the roots on the surface that come in contact w/ it can uptake it for plant nourishment. The best approach w/ endos, as w/ P is to get the goods down into the substrate and not just at the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

I currently accomplish this w/ a slurry- a mixture of the growing medium that the plant is living in during the particular growth stage, crab meal, cold pressed kelp and endomycos. The slurry, about the consistency of wet cement, is applied at each transplanting. I go from plug -> 4" -> 1gal -> 3 gal. I prefer an intermediary (4" or 1gal) transplant because it allows an additional inoculation of mycos and I've observed in cannabis (and plants in general) that roots fill out faster and fuller during young-intermediate stages w/ containment. IMO, powdering the roots is equally effective and will prolly interchange application techniques going forward depending upon how my mood swings :mad0223:, the time of day :time, my astrology chart:confused0059:, what's burning in the pipe, :bong-hits:etc, etc

 

[paulycali]

Some info below:

 

[GanjaGardener]

You have two weeks before the myco will die off if there's no roots for the myco to innoculate

Good Luck Man!

14 days? (give or take) I haven't run across that before. Would that apply to all myco strains? Not disagreeing but would appreciate a link to your source for the info.

 

[paulycali]

Give me a minute finding link now

 

[paulycali]

These words are from the Rev! Skunk Vol 6 issue 7

Myco fungi cannot live without living plant roots to attach to; use accordingly, and do not ever pre mix the myco fungi in the soil if it will be longer than 12 hrs or so before there are any living roots present.

Myco fungi products usually have a shelf life of 2yrs

There are bagged soil mixes with myco fungi added but they will not be realeased until the soil mix is moistened, as i understand it.

 

[dextr0]

Im going to check some patents and see what I can find...