RookieBC
- 200
- 63
I'd go hard in defoliating now and again in 22 days then your good. I went from this
To this
To this
Edinburgh
- 2,692
- 263
You defoliate for 2 reasons to get branches into light and to improve airflow, you could thin it out a bit if you have problems with light penetration or the inside leaves are sweating or blotchy but i subscribe to the theory if it aint broke dont try and fix it.
growsince79
- 9,065
- 313
Fans work great for airflow. Leaves don't stop it.
RookieBuds
- 119
- 63
Leaves that are "pancaked" sit there sweating on each other, fans don't always remedy that. But reaching in and pulling a couple leaves does.
growsince79
- 9,065
- 313
I blast mine with fans. If it's too bad I'll pull a leaf now and then. But I don't strip the plants.
RookieBuds
- 119
- 63
Same here, i literally have my fan providing just enough force that it doesn't cause burn or curl to the closest plants, but man they look like they're getting man-handled
lol!
Cashmeh
- 2,007
- 263
Bout as wide as I want it,
I stopped defoliating all together. Only time I remove a leaf is when it's dying due to error. If they are bunching up I just finger them till air can flow through. Seems it just keeps getting wider and wider allowing for more air flow. Seems as if the plant will do what we do. I'm just gonna let it create its own structure.
Given I will top once and low stress slightly so that all 3 fit. That auto in the middle is gonna get its lights flipped with the others in 2 weeks. Hopefully that speeds up its budding.. It's just wanting to grow massive fan leafs atm lol.
I had some light leak causing algie growth and root rot. Fixed it and should be fine now.
Following a mix of yours and aquas advice. So far so good.
I stopped defoliating all together. Only time I remove a leaf is when it's dying due to error. If they are bunching up I just finger them till air can flow through. Seems it just keeps getting wider and wider allowing for more air flow. Seems as if the plant will do what we do. I'm just gonna let it create its own structure.
Given I will top once and low stress slightly so that all 3 fit. That auto in the middle is gonna get its lights flipped with the others in 2 weeks. Hopefully that speeds up its budding.. It's just wanting to grow massive fan leafs atm lol.
I had some light leak causing algie growth and root rot. Fixed it and should be fine now.
Following a mix of yours and aquas advice. So far so good.
Progshim
- 101
- 43
@Cashmeh
The plant in the top pic is a beauty. Did it branch like that by itself? Looks to me like it's gonna be nice.
Defoliating seems to be a topic that gets people riled up. My first plant I let it grow like it wanted, I wasn't happy with it. Trying something different this time.
Here are mine at day 21 (I read my calendar wrong a few days ago) of flowering. They branched like crazy in veg. I took a ton of tops and fan leaves off because I'm trying heavy defoliating this time. We'll see how it goes. I think they look great for 21 days.
The plant in the top pic is a beauty. Did it branch like that by itself? Looks to me like it's gonna be nice.
Defoliating seems to be a topic that gets people riled up. My first plant I let it grow like it wanted, I wasn't happy with it. Trying something different this time.
Here are mine at day 21 (I read my calendar wrong a few days ago) of flowering. They branched like crazy in veg. I took a ton of tops and fan leaves off because I'm trying heavy defoliating this time. We'll see how it goes. I think they look great for 21 days.
Plantdaddy
- 17
- 13
Cashmeh
- 2,007
- 263
Man you saying mine looks good lol, that green though is beautiful. Such perfection in those fan leafs. I have a hydro post on my grow. https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/white-widow-gelat-og-and-king-tut.125418/page-2#post-2610180
I dropped things on it, tortured it due to nutrient burn, had root rot. . . like mine has been through hell. As for the stress training, I created that branching system somehow lol. . . I just kept pulling on it early. . and cutting leafs off. . and uhh. . i wish I had never really messed with it. . but it does look good. Im curious to how it will turn out. . . 2 months in and its just starting to flower lol. .
lvstealth
Supporter
- 1,507
- 263
i know nothing, on my first grow... but i have an opinion...
so, in doing anything well, in the beginning, one should break it down, control the controllable things and do a run. maybe several, the more complex the system you are analyzing.
so, a kid learning to write doesnt start with five languages and 6 colored pens and 17 pencils of differing weights and styles and eight different papers, with differing colors and bonds... you get the gist
they, for success, start with a pencil, not a choice of them, a paper with lines at first, and a basic set of letters in the language they speak.
it works the same for anything you want to "learn" and learn well.
so, for growing, you would choose a medium, chose a strain, chose the lights and other accoutrements. there are many variables in that which cant be controlled totally, but should be controlled to the extent you can. then the grow. limit variables.
if you do one grow with THAT many things that were wrong, and you end with whatever results, you have no real idea why. so how can you learn, correct and go forward.
it is, in my opinion, not a question of whether defoliation is good, bad or just a thing; it is whether a NEW grower should tackle that before the things that make a grow work in the basic sense.
i can say with a sense of authority that my plant has splotchy leaves due to a spill (hot dirt on roots), i deduced this using 2 markers. 1) i did not do 82 different and new things to it each day, so when something happened, i saw and had an idea the cause. which led to - 2) i tested my theory with recreation. (burnt one the same way and got the same look).
if i had made a run, had the vent issues, the light issues and the who knows what other issues. i would fix those, make a run and see the outcome. at this point i would know, with a little confidence that it got better/worse due to those changes. fine tune that, till you are running a decent grow/yield situation, and can do it most times...
THEN add something like defoliating. then you can, with some intelligence, say, i know i can get this from my setup, and i defoliate and get this... it is either better or worse.
the way you are approaching it, no matter the results, you wont have any clue if defoliating did a blasted thing, could be all the stuff you fiddled with. it wont help you, or anyone really. you will be like the ball player who actually believes his cap or socks make him win. it happened once, so must be so!
so, just me opining aloud... learn to do something before expanding it to try including the new stuff or you wont learn a thing.
what if your run this time is better... so you, like a ball player and his socks, commit to defoliation, and go years without figuring out that the other things made it better, not the molestation of the plant.
so, in doing anything well, in the beginning, one should break it down, control the controllable things and do a run. maybe several, the more complex the system you are analyzing.
so, a kid learning to write doesnt start with five languages and 6 colored pens and 17 pencils of differing weights and styles and eight different papers, with differing colors and bonds... you get the gist
they, for success, start with a pencil, not a choice of them, a paper with lines at first, and a basic set of letters in the language they speak.
it works the same for anything you want to "learn" and learn well.
so, for growing, you would choose a medium, chose a strain, chose the lights and other accoutrements. there are many variables in that which cant be controlled totally, but should be controlled to the extent you can. then the grow. limit variables.
if you do one grow with THAT many things that were wrong, and you end with whatever results, you have no real idea why. so how can you learn, correct and go forward.
it is, in my opinion, not a question of whether defoliation is good, bad or just a thing; it is whether a NEW grower should tackle that before the things that make a grow work in the basic sense.
i can say with a sense of authority that my plant has splotchy leaves due to a spill (hot dirt on roots), i deduced this using 2 markers. 1) i did not do 82 different and new things to it each day, so when something happened, i saw and had an idea the cause. which led to - 2) i tested my theory with recreation. (burnt one the same way and got the same look).
if i had made a run, had the vent issues, the light issues and the who knows what other issues. i would fix those, make a run and see the outcome. at this point i would know, with a little confidence that it got better/worse due to those changes. fine tune that, till you are running a decent grow/yield situation, and can do it most times...
THEN add something like defoliating. then you can, with some intelligence, say, i know i can get this from my setup, and i defoliate and get this... it is either better or worse.
the way you are approaching it, no matter the results, you wont have any clue if defoliating did a blasted thing, could be all the stuff you fiddled with. it wont help you, or anyone really. you will be like the ball player who actually believes his cap or socks make him win. it happened once, so must be so!
so, just me opining aloud... learn to do something before expanding it to try including the new stuff or you wont learn a thing.
what if your run this time is better... so you, like a ball player and his socks, commit to defoliation, and go years without figuring out that the other things made it better, not the molestation of the plant.
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Progshim
- 101
- 43
Well, I defoliated to limit the number of colas and to focus the plants energy into those colas. It's working. There are 8 - 10 colas on each plant, and no little buds up and down the branches. I did not do it to increase the yield. For that I added mylar, more lights, airflow, and temperature control. Those things seem to be working as well. There are already about 2/3 the total volume of flowers on each of these plants as was on my first plant at harvest. (Just an estimate, but an honest one)
No one is paying me to do this. I'm doing it for fun, and sharing my thoughts if anyone is interested in hearing them. By the negative reactions I'm hearing, you'd think I was trying to change what other people are doing or telling them that they're wrong. I'm not. You don't want to do it like I am, then don't. Follow your heart, I'll follow mine. Whether anyone likes it or not, what I'm doing is working for me.
Odiesel
- 421
- 93
Here are most of my plants day after flip before heavy defoliation.
These are my plants day after flipping to flower when i did an extreme defoliation leaving only the top 2 or 3 nodes per branch.
Here are the same plants today 3 weeks later before another defoliation.
And again another Defoliation on day 21 of the same plants. Trying to find a keeper from the 3 gelato seeds i popped and only have 1 of my wedding cake going in this run.
These are my plants day after flipping to flower when i did an extreme defoliation leaving only the top 2 or 3 nodes per branch.
Here are the same plants today 3 weeks later before another defoliation.
And again another Defoliation on day 21 of the same plants. Trying to find a keeper from the 3 gelato seeds i popped and only have 1 of my wedding cake going in this run.
Aqua Man
- 26,480
- 638
My thoughts (opinion only)
Reasons I defoliate.
1. First which leaves do I prefer to remove. The oldest biggest leaves or any showing signs of stress, deficiency or infection... why?
Because the new young leaves are more efficient at photosynthesis. Older shaded leaves while they may provide some storage of mobile nutrients are not benefitting the plant as much as younger healthy leaves getting lots of light and if we are feeding properly the plant should not need these storages.
2. To remove any leaves resting on anything (soil, container, other leaves)... why?
Because leaves exchange gas and moisture through the stomata on the bottom side of the leaves. If they are resting on something not only will the not transpire well and there for become damaged but also a damage leaf is more prone to infection and to boot if they are resting on something they will create condensate which is a heaven for bacteria and fungi. Not to mention damaged leaves attract bugs.
3. Airflow... very dense canopy needs good airflow as microclimates created can really affect the health of your plants. You have a humidity sensor in your grow.. now move it to inside the canopy and see what the RH is. When we talk about RH we mean the RH at the leafs as this will affect not only gas and moisture exchange but also environmental conditions that may be beneficial for again... bacteria, fungi and bugs.
4.Controlling bud production and size.
I remove offshoots almost to the growing tips before flip. Leaving the healthy fans. We all know a single cola is huge and topping to create more equally more mid sized colas. By removing these before flip it all but eliminates the popcorn bud. However I cannot say it increases yield but rather will say I feel it eliminates wasted yield. This one was taught me by @Dirtbag among other things... he and @sshz have some great info in thier threads on this topic
Ok stopping there. Just some of my thoughts
Reasons I defoliate.
1. First which leaves do I prefer to remove. The oldest biggest leaves or any showing signs of stress, deficiency or infection... why?
Because the new young leaves are more efficient at photosynthesis. Older shaded leaves while they may provide some storage of mobile nutrients are not benefitting the plant as much as younger healthy leaves getting lots of light and if we are feeding properly the plant should not need these storages.
2. To remove any leaves resting on anything (soil, container, other leaves)... why?
Because leaves exchange gas and moisture through the stomata on the bottom side of the leaves. If they are resting on something not only will the not transpire well and there for become damaged but also a damage leaf is more prone to infection and to boot if they are resting on something they will create condensate which is a heaven for bacteria and fungi. Not to mention damaged leaves attract bugs.
3. Airflow... very dense canopy needs good airflow as microclimates created can really affect the health of your plants. You have a humidity sensor in your grow.. now move it to inside the canopy and see what the RH is. When we talk about RH we mean the RH at the leafs as this will affect not only gas and moisture exchange but also environmental conditions that may be beneficial for again... bacteria, fungi and bugs.
4.Controlling bud production and size.
I remove offshoots almost to the growing tips before flip. Leaving the healthy fans. We all know a single cola is huge and topping to create more equally more mid sized colas. By removing these before flip it all but eliminates the popcorn bud. However I cannot say it increases yield but rather will say I feel it eliminates wasted yield. This one was taught me by @Dirtbag among other things... he and @sshz have some great info in thier threads on this topic
Ok stopping there. Just some of my thoughts
Madmax
- 4,733
- 313
My defoliation..this
To this
To this
Progshim
- 101
- 43
I like your grow and I hope you keep posting pics along the way. I'd like to see the final result all trimmed and dried. It really does look drastic, lol. But I get it, I'm trying to do something like that. I'm brand new though, and posts like yours give me courage. Good luck ☺
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growsince79
- 9,065
- 313
Heres my before- after
after
Madmax
- 4,733
- 313
Ive done close to that.need to clean those shoots off what you have done..ive been doing little bits at a time..
growsince79
- 9,065
- 313
How old from sprout were the plants at flip?
Madmax
- 4,733
- 313
They were a day short of 6 weeks .bar front left which is a clone...i was waiting for the front middle one to catchup abit before flipping..but didnt eventuate..they have stayed a little shorter and wernt quite as vigourous as the grow before.were very slow out of the blocks..they arnt too bad now though..under led now so they shouldnt stretch as much..well im hoping ...
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