How to size a cooling system for your garden

[Chillville]

Wow- 70 days over 100 degrees doesn't just mean it's time to get the hell out of there, it means you're already IN hell! Pack your bags and come to Colorado, my friend!

Funny you say that because if we move that's where we are going.

 

[ttystikk]

Originally Posted by ttystikk
Wow- 70 days over 100 degrees doesn't just mean it's time to get the hell out of there, it means you're already IN hell! Pack your bags and come to Colorado, my friend!


Funny you say that because if we move that's where we are going.

I grew up here, been- and lived- in places all around the country, and Colorado is the best. I may be biased, but I've been around and I've seen precious few places that come close, and none better. Stay in touch with me- if you want to come and check it out sometime, I'll be only too happy to show you around! ...we, as in family?

 

[crom]

Ok here's my question:

I have 2 tents, a 5x5 and a 4x8 in a garage. No AC or CO2. Tent temps are in the low to mid 80s with lights on. I have a 600w HPS in the 5x5 and a 400 MH in the 4x8 along with T5s(mother/clone/nursery room). The 4x8 isn't doing too bad temp wise, but the 5x5 gets warm fast and the rh climbs in the morning. I live near the beach so I get that early morning marine layer fog humidity. My quesion is this, should I cool the 6000 cf garage and just use intake and exhaust fans to suck it in and cool, OR should I rig up an AC that can go into the tent? I'm thinking that cooling the whole garage would be easier to do, but what is your thought? Swamp cooler and dehuey? Window AC rig up like mrbong73 did?

Thanks for the help and feel free to ask more details if needed.

Cheers,
Crom

 

[Chillville]

Very good question. There are some variables that would change my answer. If the choices are cooling the garage with an a/c unit that exhausted the heat outdoors or to cool the tent only and exhaust the heat from the a/c in the garage.... I would pick to cool the garage instead. If you install the units to cool the tents the heat the a/c's put off will make your garage hotter and hotter...along with the tents and everything in them. You aren't going to be energy efficient at all running that way. On the other hand if you were to only install them to cool the tent and you can vent the garage to keep the temps in there reasonable that could work for you. For me I would throw in a 2 ton window a/c unit to cool the garage and probably try to insulate as much as I could. Most of the time garages do not have insualtion in the attic above them, and usually they don't have any wall insulation. Anything you add will be worthwhile.

Let us know what you decide and keep us posted. If you have any other questions LMK

 

[crom]

Cool thanks for the reply Chillville! I was thinking that the heat put off would cause issues. I have a 12" hole hole in the roof of the garage to let heat rise out, but I thought about ducting it and using a large inline fan to suck the heat out. Maybe even crack the garage door a few inches to draw the fresh air in. The garage does have a boat door to the back yard so that helps to cool the garage as well. With all the crap in the garage like cabinets lining the walls I would say the space is about 6k cf at the highest point of the roof. So it's like 400 sq ft of floor space to cool the garage. I want the cheapest method possible because I'm not sure how long I will need AC with summer over as of today, and I'm renting so I won't be here very long to make an investment in this particular set up. Make sense? What about a swamp cooler? Too much humidity is what I would think. What about the portable AC units? Leave it outside the tent and duct it in? Did you ever see the thread with the Farmer that built a wooden box to vent away heat and vent in AC? Seems like a hassle but ducting the heat away would make life much easier in there. My temps aren't too bad, just not perfect like I want them. Thanks again.

Cheers,
Crom

 

[Chillville]

Cool thanks for the reply Chillville! I was thinking that the heat put off would cause issues. I have a 12" hole hole in the roof of the garage to let heat rise out, but I thought about ducting it and using a large inline fan to suck the heat out. Maybe even crack the garage door a few inches to draw the fresh air in. The garage does have a boat door to the back yard so that helps to cool the garage as well. With all the crap in the garage like cabinets lining the walls I would say the space is about 6k cf at the highest point of the roof. So it's like 400 sq ft of floor space to cool the garage. I want the cheapest method possible because I'm not sure how long I will need AC with summer over as of today, and I'm renting so I won't be here very long to make an investment in this particular set up. Make sense? What about a swamp cooler? Too much humidity is what I would think. What about the portable AC units? Leave it outside the tent and duct it in? Did you ever see the thread with the Farmer that built a wooden box to vent away heat and vent in AC? Seems like a hassle but ducting the heat away would make life much easier in there. My temps aren't too bad, just not perfect like I want them. Thanks again.

Cheers,
Crom

Sorry for the delay, just saw this. You can setup the a/c's in the tent (like in the pic) and use a 12" fan on a fan speed controller and you should be good to go. I can't sat this is optimal but will work. You can put the fan on a speed controller and a temp controller. Hopefully you will only need to run the fan at half speed which makes it quiter than a 8" fan on high and will still move more air. If you set it up on a thermostat it could cut on only when the garage heats up.

 

[seebobsled]

No problem at all. Assuming that the system works fine with your current setup AND the chiller doesn't have to run much during the lights off cycle to maintain room temp....then yes I think that you would be fine with the same system on a flip flop. It will all depend on your air cooling actually. This would be a VERY energy efficient setup and should really kick ass.

Hydro Innovations just released their own line of energy efficient pumps that you might want to consider, especially if you haven't installed it yet. I have one already and I replaced my 1/2 flotec pump with it. The flotec uses about 10 amps and this new pump uses only 3 amps and actually outflows the flotec by about 3000 GPH. The flotec has an AO Smith motor which is a very reliable motor, the new pump has a high effeicency Baldor motor that is equally as badass. Its really quiet too but its not cheap.

Can I get opinions to compare these...

1/2 hp flotec

BODY CONSTRUCTION: Thermoplastic

HORSEPOWER: 1/2

MAXIMUM CAPACITY: 9 GPM (shallow well setup)

FLOW AT 10' LIFT and 40 PSI: 7.8 GPM (shallow well setup)

MAX LIFT: 25' w/ shallow well jet kit / 70' w/ deep well jet kit

MAX PSI: 62 psi (shallow well setup)

PRESSURE SWITCH SETTING: 30/50

SUCTION PIPE SIZE: 1-1/4"

MINIMUM SUCTION PIPE SIZE: 1-1/4"

DRIVE PIPE SIZE: 1"

DISCHARGE PIPE SIZE: 1"

MINIMUM DISCHARGE PIPE SIZE: 3/4"

AMP DRAW: 9.9 Amps on 115V / 4.95 Amps on 230V

VOLTAGE: 115v/230v, 60 Hz (factory preset to 115v)

RECOMMENDED BREAKER: 15 amp

$220-255 what it costs a lifetime 9.9amps is not 9GPM=360 gal per hour @ 25 ft ?
:sign0065:

Sequence 4000 Pumps feature a new design which meets today's demand for increased performance on all levels.

Get up to 8800 gallons per hour with the 8800SEQ22, and use only 440watts

This expansive design will bring peak performance with incredible energy efficiency.

* Made in the USA
* All units are supplied with an 8-foot 115V cord set.
* All 4000 models are supplied complete with 2"FNPT and buttress thread ports and unions.
* 3 Year Manufacturer's Warranty
Lowest prices online. Everyday. Guaranteed.

Description:
Introducing the NEW Sequence 4000. The new expansive design will meet today's increased market demand for performance on all levels. Peak performance of 8200 gph while only requiring 450 Watts! Every Sequence 4000 Model is supplied with 2" FPT and Buttress thread ports and unions for ease of use.

Features:

Made in the USA
115V Motor
Supplied with 115 volt, 8' cord
3 year warranty

Pump Specifications
Inlet 2" FPT
Outlet 2" FPT
Max Flow Rate 8220 GPH
Max Head 22.3'
Max Watts 450
Max Amps 4.0
Cable Length 8-foot, 115V cordset
Warranty 3 year

$$650.00 8220gph=137gpm @ 22.3 feet


Introducing the NEW Sequence 4000. The new expansive design will meet today's increased market demand for performance on all levels. Peak performance of 5000 gph while only requiring 263 Watts! Every Sequence 4000 Model is supplied with 2" FPT and Buttress thread ports and unions for ease of use.

Features:

Made in the USA
115V Motor
Supplied with 115 volt, 8' cord
3 year warranty

Pump Specifications
Inlet 2" FPT
Outlet 2" FPT
Max Flow Rate 5000 GPH
Max Head 20.2'
Max Watts 263
Max Amps 2.3
Cable Length 8-foot, 115V cordset
Warranty 3 year

$$512.00 so 5000gph=83.3 gpm @ 20.2 feet

The Sequence centrifugal pumps are designed and built to meet the special needs of ponds, waterscapes and aquaculture. Buying quality products really pays. Not only do you get years of dependable service, but you enjoy tremendous savings on your electric bill every month.

The 750 and 1000 series are the workhorses of the industry. They provide tremendous flow rates, with enough pressure (head) to handle the requirements of most systems with biological filters and moderate height waterfalls. They are also used extensively for the transfer and re-circulation requirements of filtration systems, water features, streams, fountains and aquaculture.

Out-of-pond construction - NOT Submersible!
Less than half the watt draw of comparable submersible pumps
Ports are 2" FNPT suction and 1.5" FNPT discharge.
Units are pre-wired with an 8' cord and molded 115V plug.
Housing is molded of high strength, glass filled polypropylene.
Quiet operation
Dry run resistant mechanical seals.
Stainless steel hardware is standard.
The motors are TEFC, for excellent protection.
Industrial grade motors.
Three year limited warranty!

Pump Specifications
Amps 1.56
Watts 160
Max Flow Rate 4200 GPH
Max Head 12'
Inlet 2"
Outlet 1-1/2" FPT
Cable 8' cord w/115V plug
Warranty 3 Years

and this last one $299 ahh 1.56amps 80 gpm @12 feet

would last one work for 10 or so circuits??My thought was tank to 2" to pump to 1 1/2 to 2- 3/4 manifolds with 5- 1/2 drops with valves@ each and as I been following this great forum I made the return 1" to 5 - 1/2 drops with valves. And each return manifold will go back to rez. Should I build away? how much gpm and height needed if room has 8 ft ceiling ?? not running long runs.

please opinions

and thanks for your time

 

[seebobsled]

No problem at all. Assuming that the system works fine with your current setup AND the chiller doesn't have to run much during the lights off cycle to maintain room temp....then yes I think that you would be fine with the same system on a flip flop. It will all depend on your air cooling actually. This would be a VERY energy efficient setup and should really kick ass.

Hydro Innovations just released their own line of energy efficient pumps that you might want to consider, especially if you haven't installed it yet. I have one already and I replaced my 1/2 flotec pump with it. The flotec uses about 10 amps and this new pump uses only 3 amps and actually outflows the flotec by about 3000 GPH. The flotec has an AO Smith motor which is a very reliable motor, the new pump has a high effeicency Baldor motor that is equally as badass. Its really quiet too but its not cheap.

Sequence centrifugal pumps are designed and built to meet the special needs of ponds, waterscapes and aquaculture. Buying quality products really pays. Not only do you get years of dependable service, but you enjoy tremendous savings on your electric bill every month.

The 750 and 1000 series are the workhorses of the industry. They provide tremendous flow rates, with enough pressure (head) to handle the requirements of most systems with biological filters and moderate height waterfalls. They are also used extensively for the transfer and re-circulation requirements of filtration systems, water features, streams, fountains and aquaculture.

Out-of-pond construction - NOT Submersible!
Less than half the watt draw of comparable submersible pumps
Ports are 2" FNPT suction and 1.5" FNPT discharge.
Units are pre-wired with an 8' cord and molded 115V plug.
Housing is molded of high strength, glass filled polypropylene.
Quiet operation
Dry run resistant mechanical seals.
Stainless steel hardware is standard.
The motors are TEFC, for excellent protection.
Industrial grade motors.
Three year limited warranty!

Pump Specifications
Amps 1.56
Watts 160
Max Flow Rate 4200 GPH
Max Head 12'
Inlet 2"
Outlet 1-1/2" FPT
Cable 8' cord w/115V plug
Warranty 3 Years

and this last one $299 ahh 1.56amps 80 gpm @12 feet

would last one work for 10 or so circuits??My thought was tank to 2" to pump to 1 1/2 to 2- 3/4 manifolds with 5- 1/2 drops with valves@ each and as I been following this great forum I made the return 1" to 5 - 1/2 drops with valves. And each return manifold will go back to rez. Should I build away? how much gpm and height needed if room has 8 ft ceiling ?? not running long runs.

please opinions

and thanks for your time[/QUOTE]

but this is all they have as info.... no specs
:sign0065:
this seams like the portable water heater for co2 we use!!!

NEW PRODUCT!!

We offer a full line of heavy duty pumps made right here in the USA. The high quality pumps are designed for years of constant use and are available in and 1/3 HP to 1 HP stainless steel and plastic inline pumps.

Features:

Extremely energy efficient. Up to 66% reduction in energy consumption depending on model.
Outstanding 3 year warranty
Pump head is separated from motor, resulting in less heat being introduced into the water.
Plastic and stainless steel construction makes them suitable for use with nutrient water.
Available in 1/3, 1/2, and 1 HP models.

Price:

1/3 HP - $505.00 MSRP
1/2 HP - $475.00 MSRP
1 HP - $425.00 MSRP

 

[seebobsled]

found this H.I.'s 1/3hp pump but no info on 1/2 or 1 hp

The 1/3 HP high efficiency pump pulls 3.2 amps max on 110V, and can typically replace the ½ HP Flotec in most standard applications up to 12-15 ports. This pump has about 4600 GPH @ 10’ of lift, whereas the ½ HP Flotec only has 2100 GPH @ 10’ of lift and pulls 9.9 amps on 110V. So, this pump pulls roughly 1/3 the power or 6.5 amps less than the Flotec for more than double the flow. Lots of power savings when you are running a pump 24/7.

so Sequence pump spec looks very similar

Pump Specifications
Amps 1.56
Watts 160
Max Flow Rate 4200 GPH
Max Head 12'
Inlet 2"
Outlet 1-1/2" FPT
Cable 8' cord w/115V plug
Warranty 3 Years

can someone argue or reply. In need of sum dialog $299.00 it looks good right?

 

[seebobsled]

double gph to flowtec 400gph less than hydo INs.pump but half the amps 1.56@ 2' higher hummmm

1.56amp x 24hr=37.44 x365=
13665.6 x.15 cents a k=$$ 2049.88 a year

3.2 amp x 24hr=76.8 x365=
28032 x .15 c=$$ 4204.80

9.9 amp x 24hr=237.6 x365=
86724 x .15c=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$13,008.60$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Chillville]

double gph to flowtec 400gph less than hydo INs.pump but half the amps 1.56@ 2' higher hummmm

1.56amp x 24hr=37.44 x365=
13665.6 x.15 cents a k=$$ 2049.88 a year

3.2 amp x 24hr=76.8 x365=
28032 x .15 c=$$ 4204.80

9.9 amp x 24hr=237.6 x365=
86724 x .15c=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$13,008.60$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The flotec is a great pump, nearly bulletproof. They are a little loud and they aren't that efficient. The flotec pump is made to create pressure not flow, that is why you see so much difference in the pumps. I'm familiar with it and the HI pump, I've recently switched out my flotec pumps to the 1/3. Its got a baldor motor and it doesn't get much more energy efficient. I also like that its very quiet, it runs at half the speed of the flotec. I'm not familiar at all with the other pump. I'm not sure what the price is on the 1/3 HP but it looks very high quality.

 

[seebobsled]

this is what I found

Thanks for all the info this is the one I went with Sequel Asagi @

http://www.webbsonline.com/catalog/pumpsext/index.html

a little info on :banana1sv6:

Sequence Sequel Series Pumps - 4 Year Warranty

The people at Sequence® are on a never-ending quest for peak-efficiencies and premium-quality. Today, their latest efforts are captured in Sequel™.

Sequel™ is for those who understand what words like “premium-quality,” “peak-performance & efficiency” and “extensive-reliability” are supposed to mean. Sequel™ has been custom crafted for the artistic as well as the technically inclined. It is a premium product suited for the most exclusive of water-features. Sequel guarantees quality, performance, efficiency and reliability. Did they miss anything?

Sequence has chosen to use only Super-E efficient motors by BALDOR. These motors are made to work in concert with their high-efficiency pump ends to yield the very low power consumptions the market has come to expect out of a product by the people at Sequence®. The Super-E motors are the highest motor quality available in this class. When used with our high-grade internal components, you have a product that is guaranteed to work longer than most pumps now sold on the market, (4 year limited warranty).

But it doesn’t stop there. The main feature to consider is the fact that every Sequel pump ALREADY contains the ability to offer an extensive performance coverage that the competition will struggle to provide. Every pump contains a performance upgrade. That's right, every pump contains multiple impellers for multiple performance points. This provides unbeatable “low power consumption” performance for almost any environment. So, when you want to increase your flow rates for the summer season or just because you have recently expanded your water feature, Sequel offers you the pump to do the job, without having to buy a bigger unit. It is like you have an entire family of pumps wrapped up in one package.

 

[Chillville]

Thanks for the 2 pages of pump specs in the cooling sizing thread, should have started a new thread for these questions and posts though. I want to keep this thread focused seeing that it will be a sticky here for some time. I will be editing down some of the unnecessary information in this thread (even my own posts) so that in the future people trying to read this won't have to wade through all of the info that doesn't pertain to properly sizing a cooling system.

Seebobsled, feel free to start a new thread pertaining to pumps if you want this info to remain. Not a big deal, lets just keep this clean to help other people in the future find the info they are looking for :)

 

[seebobsled]

hey no feelings hurt here. please feel free to edit

 

[Capulator]

sorry for the ignorant comment, but are we basically talking about using ice boxes to cool the air instead of regular AC?

If so, that is very intriguing if there is a big power savings. Right now I am running a 5 ton portable kwikool AC, with 9 bare vert bulbs. The AC is just able to keep it at around 82. Running CO2, but with 50 lb tanks, cuz I was afraid of burning my house down.

Can you use a chiller box on a max fan attached to a cool tube but just open ended, so it is drawing the air that is inside the room ,and blasting it out toward the ceiling.

would this cool the hot air the bulb is creating, and drastically reduce the need for ac?

I guess the next question is how much does it cost to run *" max fans, a massive 2hp chiller, and a 1/3 HP pump...

 

[ttystikk]

Chillin' on the cheap!

sorry for the ignorant comment, but are we basically talking about using ice boxes to cool the air instead of regular AC?

If so, that is very intriguing if there is a big power savings. Right now I am running a 5 ton portable kwikool AC, with 9 bare vert bulbs. The AC is just able to keep it at around 82. Running CO2, but with 50 lb tanks, cuz I was afraid of burning my house down.

Can you use a chiller box on a max fan attached to a cool tube but just open ended, so it is drawing the air that is inside the room ,and blasting it out toward the ceiling.

would this cool the hot air the bulb is creating, and drastically reduce the need for ac?

I guess the next question is how much does it cost to run *" max fans, a massive 2hp chiller, and a 1/3 HP pump...

I guess the answer to your question about expense is best answered with 'is it worth it to you?' I've read in many places that chillers used for cooling are up to twice as efficient as standard AC units. Because they cool water, a far more dense substance than air, the heat transfers much more efficiently.

I use 8" ice flow boxes with an 8" max fan pushing through (don't pull!) them, and just one of these is plenty to keep a sealed room cool that's running 4 vented xxxl magnum hoods. In addition, the very same system is also doing a bang-up job of keeping 2 x 24 site RDWCs at 64 or less, and I''m using yet another circuit to keep my 30 site ezcloner cool.

Another important consideration; if you live where it gets cold at night or in the winter, think about the potential savings of running a circuit outside thru some sort of radiator with a fan sucking cold air thru it. Such a setup would allow you to cool your water- and thus everything else using that water for cooling- for the cost of running the pump and fans.

For ideas, look at 'compressorless chiller' on watercooledgardens.com. That damned thing is expensive for being a glorified radiator, but I plan to visit my HVAC guys in town to see if I can score an old AC compressor section to use in a similar way.

On a side note, you don't want to push air thru one of these and then into a cooltube or some such; you'll chill the bulb so much you'll alter its light spectrum specifications, and also run the risk of shattering it with condensation spatter.

 

[Capulator]

whats the difference between pushing cold air through a reflector, or pushing through a cool tube? Also, why not pull air? whats the difference?

a 5 hp chillking draws 50 amps. my 5 ton ac draws 40, and I don't have to worry about all the extra costs (fans, chill boxes, ducting, etc..)

Not sure I see the efficiency, or am I missing something?

 

[ttystikk]

AC vs Chiller; worth the switch?

whats the difference between pushing cold air through a reflector, or pushing through a cool tube? Also, why not pull air? whats the difference?

a 5 hp chillking draws 50 amps. my 5 ton ac draws 40, and I don't have to worry about all the extra costs (fans, chill boxes, ducting, etc..)

Not sure I see the efficiency, or am I missing something?

First, when you push something, you heat it. Why? Because you're pressurizing it, and gas law says that anytime you compress a fluid, you heat it. That's why you want to mount the fan so it pushes air thru the ice flow box, so that the heat is carried away by the water and the pressure drop that naturally occurs as the air passes through the unit creates an additional cooling effect. I can tell you, it works. Well. Well enough, in fact, that one 8" iceflow bos and maxfan combo easily keeps up with the radiant heat of 4 aircooled hoods. I exhaust the air flowing thru the hoods outside, and the one iceflow box handles the rest...

Yes, there is an additional up front expense. Do you already have chillers for your hydro setup? If not, this would cover that duty as well, and your AC can't do that. Also, one chiller can cool every room or piece of gear that needs cooling, whereas your AC's effectiveness drops drastically the further you get away from the unit, even with ducting. Chillers don't need ducts, they use hoses. Easier to install, smaller, and less expensive to buy.

Another thing your AC won't do is allow you to use the cold temps outside to manage your entire setup; sure, you can open a window, but that's defeating the purpose of sealed room agriculture. Nevermind the potentially crazy temp. swings you'll have to manually stay on top of...

It sounds to me like you've already made your capital investment in cooling, and that's the 5 ton AC you already have. Does it make sense to scrap it in favor of a chiller? I don't have enough information about your setup to even make a reasonable guess, and I confess I don't have the expertise to make a solid argument one way or the other.

All I can tell you is that my one 2 Ton ChillKing will run 2 bloom rooms with 8 x 1000W vented hoods each on the flip, a total of 5 x 24 site RDWC systems, a veg room with 2 more 1000W hoods, and a cloner- all scattered about in separate rooms. And when the weather is cold enough, it will do it for the cost of running the pump and some fans. No extra chillers, no brain damage trying to move large volumes of air, and the ability to take advantage of cool outside temps without having to babysit it all add up to strong arguments in favor of water cooling, and therefore my chillking unit.

Of course I do realize that I had the luxury of starting with nothing when I made the purchase decision, which made it easier for me. Hope this helps, or at least gives you some food for thought...

 

[Capulator]

thanks for clearing that up. Wish I had known about this 6 months ago.

Maybe after a couple runs I'll make the switch. If you can run all that on a 2HP chiller, I'm all in.

Are you also using an AC in your room, or are you relying on the one chiller to do all of the cooling?

 

[Chillville]

hey no feelings hurt here. please feel free to edit

:) Thanks for understanding. I do however feel like we need a pump thread though and I'll probably just move all of your info over to it.