Capulator said:

sorry for the ignorant comment, but are we basically talking about using ice boxes to cool the air instead of regular AC?

If so, that is very intriguing if there is a big power savings. Right now I am running a 5 ton portable kwikool AC, with 9 bare vert bulbs. The AC is just able to keep it at around 82. Running CO2, but with 50 lb tanks, cuz I was afraid of burning my house down.

Can you use a chiller box on a max fan attached to a cool tube but just open ended, so it is drawing the air that is inside the room ,and blasting it out toward the ceiling.

would this cool the hot air the bulb is creating, and drastically reduce the need for ac?

I guess the next question is how much does it cost to run *" max fans, a massive 2hp chiller, and a 1/3 HP pump...

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Hey capulator, yes you can absoultely use the Ice Box on verticals, see pics below of my friends garden. I'm going to be straight with you, 9 lights and you can only get your temps to 82....a chiller would kick that a/c's ass :). I have seen 12 lights on 5 ton chillers, I recommend 10 lights all the time WITH propane co2 generators and they can keep their temps in the low 70's with no problem at all. This is because of the higher heat capacity of water, with the same amount of power you can remove much more heat.

BTW the 2hp is not massive by any means, not sure off hand what the measurements are though. Using the fans will also allow you to get your plants much closer to the light without burning them.

This garden uses a 4 ton chiller that's mounted indoors and is vented out the roof, 8k watts total, 300 sq ft being cooled, very hot climate to say the least, (2) water-cooled co2 generators, and (3) water-cooled dehus. He uses 8 Ice Boxes total to cool everything. The chiller cycles on and off properly just lilke it should and he keeps the temps at 76 when its 110 outside. The electric bill for this spot never goes over $500 and he cranks out 6-7lbs every month with (2) 6 site uc systems in flower.

Capulator said:

whats the difference between pushing cold air through a reflector, or pushing through a cool tube? Also, why not pull air? whats the difference?

a 5 hp chillking draws 50 amps. my 5 ton ac draws 40, and I don't have to worry about all the extra costs (fans, chill boxes, ducting, etc..)

Not sure I see the efficiency, or am I missing something?

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Fans do better pulling than pushing in most cases when it comes to heat exchangers.

50 amps is the maximum amp capacity, the chiller does not use near that amount especially after startup. 5 ton compressors whether in a chiller or a/c use the same amount of amps. BUT Chilllking 5 ton chillers actually use 4.25 HP compressors to get 5 tons of cooling so there is a substantial savings just with that alone, then they run less than an a/c to do the same job saving you even more.

Yes the power used for the pump is tacked on there, usually 3 amps 220 for a high efficiency 1/2 hp pump. BUT you must also figure in fan amperage for an a/c vs chiller, an air handler fans draws about 7 amps 220 (14 amps 110). With 9 lights lets say you are using (3) 10" max-fans and ice boxes....thats only 6 amps 110v (3 amps 220). These leftover amps from the fans nearly takes care of the amps for the pump.... and you can get your plants closer to the lights....and the compressor will run less with the efficiency of water.

Also did I mention that you can use one chiller to cool dehu's, hydroponics systems, clone machines, co2 generators, and a/c? You can even duhumidify using the chiller with a water-cooled air handler.

Capulator said:

thanks for clearing that up. Wish I had known about this 6 months ago.

Maybe after a couple runs I'll make the switch. If you can run all that on a 2HP chiller, I'm all in.

Are you also using an AC in your room, or are you relying on the one chiller to do all of the cooling?

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It's the chiller, the whole chiller, and nothin' but the chiller... ;-)

Chill,im in the desert in socal and routinely have 110 deg days in summer and mid 30s days in winter,would a chiller be efficient here?what kind of costs for a five ton chiller?Expense to have installed?can a chiller control different zones like 2 rooms on a flip w/4k each?

I have a similar question, but from the opposite perspective; since I live where it's about to get damned cold for 6 months, what if I move my chiller indoors and plumb it into the cold air return of my gas/forced air home heating system? Would I then be able to utilize the heat generated to help heat my home? I would of course set it up so there's a fan pulling air across the coils at all times, wouldn't be hard to just set the furnace's squirrelcage blower to run all the time on low...

fishwhistle said:

Chill,im in the desert in socal and routinely have 110 deg days in summer and mid 30s days in winter,would a chiller be efficient here?what kind of costs for a five ton chiller?Expense to have installed?can a chiller control different zones like 2 rooms on a flip w/4k each?

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i am in socal and yes a chiller will work good here for you in the summer and in the winter you can use a compressor less chiller to take advantage of the cool temps and save on power. as far as two rooms no problem run both on same water line and put fans that go thru ice boxes on temp sensor to control the two different rooms but keep them at your desired temps.

fishwhistle said:

Chill,im in the desert in socal and routinely have 110 deg days in summer and mid 30s days in winter,would a chiller be efficient here?what kind of costs for a five ton chiller?Expense to have installed?can a chiller control different zones like 2 rooms on a flip w/4k each?

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as far as price with only 4000 watts you will be fine with a 2 ton unit and they can be installed diy all you need is a 220 line to plug it into the rest is just water lines.

ttystikk said:

I have a similar question, but from the opposite perspective; since I live where it's about to get damned cold for 6 months, what if I move my chiller indoors and plumb it into the cold air return of my gas/forced air home heating system? Would I then be able to utilize the heat generated to help heat my home? I would of course set it up so there's a fan pulling air across the coils at all times, wouldn't be hard to just set the furnace's squirrelcage blower to run all the time on low...

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if you are in colder climate you can skip the chiller and just use heat-x-tractors or air handler placed in the house with a fan to remove heat from lights and at the same time heat the house. or you could use a compressorless chiller that can also be used to hest the house in the cold months and just use a chiller when it get warmer and it is required. this will save you alot of powers that you could run more lights with if you desire to keep the power bill constant.

Chillville said:

Hey capulator, yes you can absoultely use the Ice Box on verticals, see pics below of how I do it. I'm going to be straight with you, 9 lights and you can only get your temps to 82....a chiller would kick that a/c's ass :). I have seen 12 lights on 5 ton chillers, I recommend 10 lights all the time WITH propane co2 generators and they can keep their temps in the low 70's with no problem at all. This is because of the higher heat capacity of water, with the same amount of power you can remove much more heat.

BTW the 2hp is not massive by any means, not sure off hand what the measurements are though. Using the fans will also allow you to get your plants much closer to the light without burning them.

I use a 4 ton chiller that's mounted indoors and is vented out the roof, 8k watts total, 300 sq ft being cooled, very hot climate to say the least, (2) water-cooled co2 generators, and (3) water-cooled dehus. I'm using 8 Ice Boxes total to cool everything. My chiller cycles on and off properly just lilke it should and I keep my temps at 76 when its 110 outside. My electric bill for that grow never goes over $500 and I crank out 6-7lbs every month.

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thats a nice garden but i would spread the plants apart a little and put some verticals inbetween them it will increase your yield alot.

fishwhistle said:

Chill,im in the desert in socal and routinely have 110 deg days in summer and mid 30s days in winter,would a chiller be efficient here?what kind of costs for a five ton chiller?Expense to have installed?can a chiller control different zones like 2 rooms on a flip w/4k each?

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Absolutely, the hotter it is the more money you will save on using a chiller since it will run less. And in the winter just circulating the water outside through the chiller will give you cooling BTU's without running the compressor.

A 5 ton isn't necessary for that size grow and yes you can control 2 different rooms at the same time. In fact you can control many rooms all at different temp settings and different humidity setting with one chiller if sized properly.

With 4k watts on a flip flop you would be pushing it with a 2 ton in the summer without any assistance from an a/c. A 3 ton would take care of it no problem.

water wise guy said:

thats a nice garden but i would spread the plants apart a little and put some verticals inbetween them it will increase your yield alot.

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I agree but there's no room to do that unfortunately. These plants get 3x's that size when they are harvested so in order to put verts in between them they would have to be spread at least 4' apart, just not enough floor space. Plus it would spread the plants out far enough that the 2k watts above them would need to be upgraded to 4 1000 watts or 4 600 to get the proper coverage.

ttystikk said:

I have a similar question, but from the opposite perspective; since I live where it's about to get damned cold for 6 months, what if I move my chiller indoors and plumb it into the cold air return of my gas/forced air home heating system? Would I then be able to utilize the heat generated to help heat my home? I would of course set it up so there's a fan pulling air across the coils at all times, wouldn't be hard to just set the furnace's squirrelcage blower to run all the time on low...

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For sure, take advantage. This will move every BTU from your garden into your house, plus a few more. Won't hurt you chiller at all as long as the room the chiller is in doesn't get over 90 degrees, then the efficiency starts to slightly fall off.

Chill,what do the chillers run costwise to be fully operational(say 3 ton)?What do you think energy savings would be over a high seer mini split?Is the water in a closed loop or is there some kind of reservoir needed?This is an interesting thread and im always lookin at conserving energy/dollars so forgive my chiller ignorance and ignorant questions!

Chillville said:

For sure, take advantage. This will move every BTU from your garden into your house, plus a few more. Won't hurt you chiller at all as long as the room the chiller is in doesn't get over 90 degrees, then the efficiency starts to slightly fall off.

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This would solve the problem of the chiller getting too cold in winter, as well!

fishwhistle said:

Chill,what do the chillers run costwise to be fully operational(say 3 ton)?What do you think energy savings would be over a high seer mini split?Is the water in a closed loop or is there some kind of reservoir needed?This is an interesting thread and im always lookin at conserving energy/dollars so forgive my chiller ignorance and ignorant questions!

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Hey fishwhistle- I can't speak to the energy efficiency differences, and I am very interested in what Chillville has to say about them!

On the other hand, In order to be fully operational with a chiller system, you'll need to add up the costs of the components, which is pretty straightforward. For me:
2 Ton Chillking window mount unit
7 8" Iceflow boxes (I'm currently not using them all, but I got a killer package deal I just couldn't pass up)
1 1/2 Flotec waterpump
------I got all the above for $1650, plus a watercooled CO2 burner I traded to a friend for a couple 90W UFO LEDs. Told you I got a killer deal...
4 8" Maxfans
thermostatic controller to run the maxfans in the bloomroom
25' of 1" tubing
50' of 3/4" tubing
150' of 1/2" tubing
3' of reinforced tubing for the pump inlet- the thing sucked the regular stuff flat!
various connectors, tees and fittings- including a 3/4" ball valve to close the line from the res.
4 coils of 3/8" OD copper line, for cooling the RDWCs and under my ezcloner :-)
4 Pex 6 way manifolds
1 bag of 50 1/2" plastic valves
70 or so hose clamps
30 U shaped brackets for mounting the tubing on walls, ceiling, etc.
1 55 gallon drum reservoir, sourced free in my case
Last but not least, a 220v circuit adequate to run the chiller at 9.5 amps.

I haven't used all this yet, some of it is waiting for me to build a second room on the flip. This was plenty of kit to chill a 16x9' bloomroom w/ 8 x 1kW of vented hoods, a veg room and a 'nursery' where the cloner is.

To answer your next question, yes the water used in the chiller system is a closed loop, and does NOT mix with either tap water or nutrient water. In fact, it's highly recommended to run 50% propylene glycol in the lines to help lubricate the pump and to aid in thermal efficiency. The reservoir is there to help raise the thermal mass of the system, so the chiller doesn't have to cycle so much under light loads. It will also come in handy if you need to drain the entire system, otherwise you're looking at pouring potentially hundreds of dollars worth of p. glycol down the drain...

None of your questions are in any way ignorant. I asked them all when I went aobut setting up my cooling system. I'm in Colorado and I knew that high altitude and a dry climate meant that AC performance would be compromised, so I went looking for alternatives early.

Now that I've answered the easy questions, lol- I'm also interested in what Chillville has to say about comparative efficiencies between chillers and AC units. One thing I CAN say is that if you live where it gets cold in the winter, your bill to run an AC unit in your grow won't go down significantly. If you have a chiller system, and rig up some way to run your water outside thru a heat exchanger, then you can take advantage of the cold weather and not run your compressor/chiller unit as much, or potentially not at all!

ttystikk, what is the serial number on the side of your chiller? As an example of efficiency I want to have CK look up the BTU's of your particular unit. Its hard to say what the difference in a high seer mini split and a chiller but I do know that I've never used an a/c that has produced MORE than it was rated for. I got a CK 2hp which should be 24,000 BTU early this year that actually tested around 32,000 BTU. I'm really not sure how much more efficient you can than that, over 2.5 tons of cooling while only using the energy for 2 tons of cooling.

ttystikk, if your chiller was built in the middle of summer it may have only tested at or near its rating. CK is in Tx where it was over 100 most of the summer, over 100F you will see less BTU. BUT if your unit tested at 2 tons when it was over 100F then using it in lower temps, even in the 90's, will boost the BTU far over its summer rating. On the build sheet they actually have the outdoor temps listed during the BTU test.

LMK

Chillville said:

ttystikk, what is the serial number on the side of your chiller? As an example of efficiency I want to have CK look up the BTU's of your particular unit. Its hard to say what the difference in a high seer mini split and a chiller but I do know that I've never used an a/c that has produced MORE than it was rated for. I got a CK 2hp which should be 24,000 BTU early this year that actually tested around 32,000 BTU. I'm really not sure how much more efficient you can than that, over 2.5 tons of cooling while only using the energy for 2 tons of cooling.

ttystikk, if your chiller was built in the middle of summer it may have only tested at or near its rating. CK is in Tx where it was over 100 most of the summer, over 100F you will see less BTU. BUT if your unit tested at 2 tons when it was over 100F then using it in lower temps, even in the 90's, will boost the BTU far over its summer rating. On the build sheet they actually have the outdoor temps listed during the BTU test.

LMK

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LMK?
serial number: KK90855097
mfgd: 2/09

There's some other info there too, but I can't read it because of how it's installed in the window... If it's important, I'll try to look at it again.

tty/chill,im about 4500' elevation and it gets both hot in summer(100+)and cold in winter(35+)w/low humidity so im weighing options,the chiller deal is a new one to me.Right now my thoughts are high seer mini split heat pump,probably a fujitsu 4 ton.A unit like this will take care of both heating/cooling and is pretty damn efficient energy wise but if i could save power without spending more money id consider the chiller option.Im cooling 3 rooms,2-4ks on a flip and one veg w/minimal cooling needed(mostly t-5s),building is very well insulated.

fishwhistle said:

tty/chill,im about 4500' elevation and it gets both hot in summer(100+)and cold in winter(35+)w/low humidity so im weighing options,the chiller deal is a new one to me.Right now my thoughts are high seer mini split heat pump,probably a fujitsu 4 ton.A unit like this will take care of both heating/cooling and is pretty damn efficient energy wise but if i could save power without spending more money id consider the chiller option.Im cooling 3 rooms,2-4ks on a flip and one veg w/minimal cooling needed(mostly t-5s),building is very well insulated.

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that isn't cold, lol... try -20. It was some serious research and brain damage to set up my chiller, but with lots of help from lots of people- especially Chillville- I got it up and running and I could not be happier. No matter what the SEER numbers are on the AC unit you consider, it will have trouble with high altitude/low humidity situations for the simple reason of a dire lack of thermal mass. Thin dry air just isn't dense enough to effectively carry the cool, and that will hurt the overall effectiveness of the unit. That's why swamp coolers work so well in places like these- although that's not going to be a good option because you can't fully control temps with one.

For one, no AC unit is gonna cool a res. or a DWC. That clinched it for me.

For two, I know of no AC units- whole house models or otherwise- that will effectively and independently manage temperatures in several different rooms. Chillville may, but I just set up 8" Iceboxes with 8" Maxfans blowing thru them. Hook the Maxfans in a given room up to a Hydro Innovations thermostat:



I hooked up a couple Icebox/Maxfan combos in my room, but they are extremely efficient. I run 8" Magnum xxxl 'ocho' hoods, aircooled, and just one icebox with the fan controller is plenty to pull the residual heat from the room with four hoods running with no problem at all. I do NOT hook the icebox units up to the hoods, however; instead, I just mount them in the room and let them work with the air in there. The hoods pull air from outside the room through the hoods and exhaust it outside without it ever mixing with room air. I keep the ballasts outside the room too. That way, the only heat left for the icebox and chiller to deal with is what's left over. This is proving to be much more efficient than trying to cool the hot air coming out of the hood.

You can do this in each of your bloomrooms on the flip and each thermostat will manage temps independently. The water runs through the iceboxes continuously, as it does through the chiller itself, and the fan comes on as needed. Think of it as bringing the coolness to anywhere you can run a pair of waterhoses...

I cool my bloom room. It has 8x1000W aircooled hoods in it, operated as described above.
I cool the 24 site x 5 gallon RDWC in it. I'm about to build out two more RDWC systems in there and cool those, too.
I cool the 24 site x 5 gallon RDWC system in my veg room.
I even have a coil set up under my cloner to keep the temps even!
When I swap out the 2 hoods on my veg. room light rotator for one adjust-a-wing, I'll install an icebox and maxfan to cool that room, too.
I have plenty of capacity left over for building another 8x1000W bloom room on the flip...

fishwhistle said:

tty/chill,im about 4500' elevation and it gets both hot in summer(100+)and cold in winter(35+)w/low humidity so im weighing options,the chiller deal is a new one to me.Right now my thoughts are high seer mini split heat pump,probably a fujitsu 4 ton.A unit like this will take care of both heating/cooling and is pretty damn efficient energy wise but if i could save power without spending more money id consider the chiller option.Im cooling 3 rooms,2-4ks on a flip and one veg w/minimal cooling needed(mostly t-5s),building is very well insulated.

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I have an idea for you guys that need heat in the winter (we don't lol), this is something I've set up for a couple of canadian customers. If you use some Ice Boxes or Fresca sol to cool your lighting you can use a larger reservoir, instead of using a chiller. While the lights are on you use that heat to warm the reservoir while at the same time you are cooling the lights. When the lighting turns off you continue to pump the water and leave the fans on as usual. This will blow warm air in to the grow room...warming the grow room and cooling the reservoir. This may be something that you only setup for a portion of your lighting this way you still have plenty of control over the cooling still while the lights are on. If all your lighting is on the res then the grow room can get warm at the end of the cycle as the reservoir warms up. Just an idea, the colder the climate the more this makes sense. As you guys know heat is very expensive. With this method you are storing the heat during the lights on cycle and using it while the lights are off. I'm actually designing a lighting system like this for commercial buildings.

A 4 ton seems like alot for that setup. Please use the link to the HI btu calculator to add up the total btus for your garden and let us know. You would want to calcualte the BTU with all the equipment on that would be running at one time. Honestly it seems like you could use 2 ton, possibly 3 tons in the summer. Really depends on if you are running 2 or 4 lights at one time.

Please everyone know that heat pumps do not do that well in really cold climates. I have a heat pump on my house and when it gets in to the low 40's here the heat pump doesn't work very well. It ends up running most of the time, much more than it runs in the summer to keep the house cold when its 105 outside. There are electric heat strips inside my a/c that are energy hogs that must come on to compensate for the lack of heat from the heat pump.

Keep in mind that one chiller can control multiple rooms at the same time. With low humidity I would have to suggest ice boxes, I'm 100% positive that you will save money over the a/c. The only time the Ice Boxes become less efficient is in high humidity areas where multiple dehus are needed. The Ice Box isn't made to dehumidify, but HI is going to be releasing an Ice Box in the next few months that will dehumidify and produce 1 ton of cooling making it possible to run up to 3k watts on one box. Its has a double heat exchanger inside with a condensation drip pan.