Hows it looking(1st gro)

Aqua Man · Jul 26, 2020

Why does everyone keep thinking this is a soil grow?

Back the light off that plant. It's stunted and been through a lot.

It's starting to recover. In that tiny pot your gonna need to water prob 2 times a day during light on. Coco should NEVER DRY.. so just make sure it doesn't. Don't mess with it anymore. Once it's healthy upot. Until then keep the coco saturated and the light lower with a higher humidity and a bit of airflow.

Frankster · Jul 26, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Why does everyone keep thinking this is a soil grow?

Back the light off that plant. It's stunted and been through a lot.

It's starting to recover. In that tiny pot your gonna need to water prob 2 times a day during light on. Coco should NEVER DRY.. so just make sure it doesn't. Don't mess with it anymore. Once it's healthy upot. Until then keep the coco saturated and the light lower with a higher humidity and a bit of airflow.

Thanks Aqua, I didn't read though everything, and it looked like soil. She is stunted for sure, and very traumatized.

FarmerJake · Jul 27, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Why does everyone keep thinking this is a soil grow?

Back the light off that plant. It's stunted and been through a lot.

It's starting to recover. In that tiny pot your gonna need to water prob 2 times a day during light on. Coco should NEVER DRY.. so just make sure it doesn't. Don't mess with it anymore. Once it's healthy upot. Until then keep the coco saturated and the light lower with a higher humidity and a bit of airflow.

Frankster said:
Thanks Aqua, I didn't read though everything, and it looked like soil. She is stunted for sure, and very traumatized.

It is now doing good with 6 equal tops coming up together with new growth

Porky1982 · Jul 27, 2020

This thread is awesome. Im following along.

Frankster · Jul 27, 2020

FarmerJake said:
It is now doing good with 6 equal tops coming up together with new growth

The little engine that could. Keep listening to Aqua man there Jake, he's going to make a pro out of you yet.

skillet12 · Jul 29, 2020

Hey, coincidentally I've been using roots soilless for almost the same amount of time and with the same nutrient schedule that you have. I'm a bit confused with this medium.

It seems like it holds a lot more water and compacts more than what I assume just coco and perlite would. I've noticed that after transplanting to larger containers, daily watering made everything droopy, slowed, and wrinkly until I started letting them dry for longer and eventually moved them into fabric pots.

The other confusing thing about it is that my runoff is always around 7.0-7.3 ph while the feed going in is 5.8-6.0 ph.

I've been having some trouble recently but now I'm thinking I have to treat this a little more like soil and just step away from it for a couple days before I try adding or fixing anything. Everything healthy hasn't been fed more than once every two days and they usually get pretty dry on top before they do. If I carefully feel in the medium closer to the root zone I always hit moisture.

Aqua Man · Jul 30, 2020

skillet12 said:
Hey, coincidentally I've been using roots soilless for almost the same amount of time and with the same nutrient schedule that you have. I'm a bit confused with this medium.

It seems like it holds a lot more water and compacts more than what I assume just coco and perlite would. I've noticed that after transplanting to larger containers, daily watering made everything droopy, slowed, and wrinkly until I started letting them dry for longer and eventually moved them into fabric pots.

The other confusing thing about it is that my runoff is always around 7.0-7.3 ph while the feed going in is 5.8-6.0 ph.

I've been having some trouble recently but now I'm thinking I have to treat this a little more like soil and just step away from it for a couple days before I try adding or fixing anything. Everything healthy hasn't been fed more than once every two days and they usually get pretty dry on top before they do. If I carefully feel in the medium closer to the root zone I always hit moisture.

Ph out that high is likely something like source water.

What's you ppm and pH of source water and what nutrients or additives are you using?

Also the temperature of the pots is important make sure they are off the ground and not getting to cold at night.

It's really hard to over water coco. Overwatering is not to much water it's a lack of oxygen and coco has a good air holding capacity and much much better gas exchange than soil. How do you think is hydro guys grow with roots completely submerged

I can promise you one thing you may think it's better to treat it like soil for now but come middle of flower your gonna see some major issues from the constant under watering. CEC issues, ppm issues and likely ph issues.

If it's not working for you there is something you are missing.

Frankster · Jul 30, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Ph out that high is likely something like source water.

What's you ppm and pH of source water and what nutrients or additives are you using?

Also the temperature of the pots is important make sure they are off the ground and not getting to cold at night.

It's really hard to over water coco. Overwatering is not to much water it's a lack of oxygen and coco has a good air holding capacity and much much better gas exchange than soil. How do you think is hydro guys grow with roots completely submerged

I can promise you one thing you may think it's better to treat it like soil for now but come middle of flower your gonna see some major issues from the constant under watering. CEC issues, ppm issues and likely ph issues.

If it's not working for you there is something you are missing.

What exactly is too cold at night? How cold would that be? Doesn't the cold hold oxygen into the water more efficiently?

Aqua Man · Jul 30, 2020

Frankster said:
What exactly is too cold at night? How cold would that be? Doesn't the cold hold oxygen into the water more efficiently?

It also slows growth. Below 60 imo even 65 I feel is cold. My soil temps are about 77-80 lights on and 70iah over night

Aqua Man · Jul 30, 2020

Frankster said:
What exactly is too cold at night? How cold would that be? Doesn't the cold hold oxygen into the water more efficiently?

In terms of o2 cooler water holds more o2 but it's gas exchange ability of the media that's the key. Like why we add perlite.

Frankster · Jul 30, 2020

Yea, I'm thinking below 60's probably where it really curves off, but I thought you might have a more exact number. I suspect each strain might vary a little also, depending on if it's a sativa vs indicas.

Indicas should tolerate the lower temps, whereas the sativas probably need a bit higher.

Aqua Man · Jul 30, 2020

Frankster said:
Yea, I'm thinking below 60's probably where it really curves off, but I thought you might have a more exact number. I suspect each strain might vary a little also, depending on if it's a sativa vs indicas.

Indicas should tolerate the lower temps, whereas the sativas probably need a bit higher.

I agree. I think it's generally 68 is target. I find warmer temps really make a difference in growth rates.

Frankster · Jul 30, 2020

Aqua Man said:
I agree. I think it's generally 68 is target. I find warmer temps really make a difference in growth rates.

I'm wondering if it's good for them to get a bit low so they can "pick up" more oxygen, as long as there not low for extended periods. Sorta like "recharging" the water molecules, and allowing them "full oxygen saturation"

I know water has to be aerated in bulk, but at the root level, I suspect there's a mechanism at work, at least on the surface, air movement, ect. Like having perlite probably does this, naturally.

skillet12 · Jul 30, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Ph out that high is likely something like source water.

What's you ppm and pH of source water and what nutrients or additives are you using?

Also the temperature of the pots is important make sure they are off the ground and not getting to cold at night.

It's really hard to over water coco. Overwatering is not to much water it's a lack of oxygen and coco has a good air holding capacity and much much better gas exchange than soil. How do you think is hydro guys grow with roots completely submerged

I can promise you one thing you may think it's better to treat it like soil for now but come middle of flower your gonna see some major issues from the constant under watering. CEC issues, ppm issues and likely ph issues.

If it's not working for you there is something you are missing.

ppm of fert mix is around 630 and the source water is 1/2-3/4 of distilled water with the rest being tap water with a ph around 8.0 and ppm of 250-300

I'm running off the same schedule as op with GH flora trio, armor si, calimagic, diamond nectar, amino acids, and yucca. edit: forgot to mention I need to ph down with phosphoric acid bringing it from 6.5-7.5ph to 5.8-6.0ph

I'm waiting on a soil hydro-thermometer but air temperature stays at 73-76 F at night and at an rh of 55-60%. I've been concerned about soil temp but pots are slightly elevated in autopots (not on yet) with a rug separating the tent from the wood floor.

I'm worried more about the worm castings having bad air retention than coco. It seems like there's a lot of it but its hard to tell. I can go back to daily fertigating but they've been showing signs of over watering since transplant. It's hard to know what direction to go.

By treating it like soil, I just mean that I wasn't going to fertigate everyday until the plants fill the containers better. Eventually they'll be fed from the bottom when the roots are long enough to drink from the autopot basins so being underwatered won't be a problem by that point. They'll drink as much as they want

Thanks for the help!

Frankster · Jul 30, 2020

So in a way, this is a modified hydro grow.

skillet12 said:
ppm of fert mix is around 630 and the source water is 1/2-3/4 of distilled water with the rest being tap water with a ph around 8.0 and ppm of 250-300

I'm running off the same schedule as op with GH flora trio, armor si, calimagic, diamond nectar, amino acids, and yucca. edit: forgot to mention I need to ph down with phosphoric acid bringing it from 6.5-7.5ph to 5.8-6.0ph

I'm waiting on a soil hydro-thermometer but air temperature stays at 73-76 F at night and at an rh of 55-60%. I've been concerned about soil temp but pots are slightly elevated in autopots (not on yet) with a rug separating the tent from the wood floor.

I'm worried more about the worm castings having bad air retention than coco. It seems like there's a lot of it but its hard to tell. I can go back to daily fertigating but they've been showing signs of over watering since transplant. It's hard to know what direction to go.

By treating it like soil, I just mean that I wasn't going to fertigate everyday until the plants fill the containers better. Eventually they'll be fed from the bottom when the roots are long enough to drink from the autopot basins so being underwatered won't be a problem by that point. They'll drink as much as they want

Thanks for the help!

So are there holes or something in the bottom of this container? for air flow, drainage? how are the root's getting oxygen?

skillet12 · Jul 30, 2020

Frankster said:
So in a way, this is a modified hydro grow.

So are there holes or something in the bottom of this container? for air flow, drainage? how are the root's getting oxygen?

I think it's technically hydro either way if I'm not mistaken but the bottom feed is definitely closer to straight hydroponics. It gives the benefits of a soilless grow while still letting me spoon feed whats needed or dilute feed instantly.

Im in fabric pots so oxygen flows through all sides. When plants are fed from the bottom, the top medium drys and allows for constant airflow for breathing oxygen at the top of the roots. They are in gravity-filled basins so the root tips are always in water. It's similar to kratky but with a richer medium.

Aqua Man · Jul 30, 2020

skillet12 said:
I think it's technically hydro either way if I'm not mistaken but the bottom feed is definitely closer to straight hydroponics. It gives the benefits of a soilless grow while still letting me spoon feed whats needed or dilute feed instantly.

Im in fabric pots so oxygen flows through all sides. When plants are fed from the bottom, the top medium drys and allows for constant airflow for breathing oxygen at the top of the roots. They are in gravity-filled basins so the root tips are always in water. It's similar to kratky but with a richer medium.

Yeah the worm casting could be an issue. Also IME watering with cold or hot water can shock the plants. make sure you are watering with aerated solution at the same temp as the media so as not to shock them

skillet12 · Jul 30, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Yeah the worm casting could be an issue. Also IME watering with cold or hot water can shock the plants. make sure you are watering with aerated solution at the same temp as the media so as not to shock them

Cheers, thanks for the advice. I appreciate any bits of knowledge I can get

I forgot to mention that the ones in the larger containers have had a good bit of purple on the joints between stems and branches that seem to worsen after watering if they haven't dried enough. Could be phosphorus def but I need a pretty good dose of phosphoric acid to get the ph down so I doubt its that. The runt in the 1gal has never changed stem color but watering before it dries makes the new growth wrinkly and water logged. Purple may be genetic but its unstable so im doubting its the main reason.

Water temp has been pretty good so far but this week I've been extra aware to feed with cool/lukewarm water to mitigate shock. I'm honing in on all the little things to keep everything stable while I treat a bit of IV chlorosis. Its hard to tell if its root shock (2nd container was poorly chosen ending with transplant shock after moving to final fabric pot) ph or nutrient def/toxicity so I'm taking it slow and steady.

I'm still not sure what to think about the medium ph though. The medium always buffers to about 7.0 when testing runoff and medium ph. Its possible that the chlorosis is from a lack of iron, zinc or another mineral that needs a lower ph to be taken up. Did you mention that source water could somehow cause this even after ph-ing?

I tried buffering before even using the medium but regardless I assumed it would eventually acidify to my usual feed ph. I don't know what else it could be. The feed in the reservoir stays pretty stable after sitting for a couple days so I doubt its that. I understand that plants and microbes will buffer ph as they eat and create food for each other but I don't know exactly how that effects the ecosystem. The runt is going into a 5gal soon with a different coco perlite and peat mix so I can see if it behaves any differently. I wish I added peat at the beginning to hold a little acidity or just went straight coco and perlite.

Have you had any similar problems, op?

Aqua Man · Jul 30, 2020

skillet12 said:
Cheers, thanks for the advice. I appreciate any bits of knowledge I can get

I forgot to mention that the ones in the larger containers have had a good bit of purple on the joints between stems and branches that seem to worsen after watering if they haven't dried enough. Could be phosphorus def but I need a pretty good dose of phosphoric acid to get the ph down so I doubt its that. The runt in the 1gal has never changed stem color but watering before it dries makes the new growth wrinkly and water logged. Purple may be genetic but its unstable so im doubting its the main reason.

Water temp has been pretty good so far but this week I've been extra aware to feed with cool/lukewarm water to mitigate shock. I'm honing in on all the little things to keep everything stable while I treat a bit of IV chlorosis. Its hard to tell if its root shock (2nd container was poorly chosen ending with transplant shock after moving to final fabric pot) ph or nutrient def/toxicity so I'm taking it slow and steady.

I'm still not sure what to think about the medium ph though. The medium always buffers to about 7.0 when testing runoff and medium ph. Its possible that the chlorosis is from a lack of iron, zinc or another mineral that needs a lower ph to be taken up. Did you mention that source water could somehow cause this even after ph-ing?

I tried buffering before even using the medium but regardless I assumed it would eventually acidify to my usual feed ph. I don't know what else it could be. The feed in the reservoir stays pretty stable after sitting for a couple days so I doubt its that. I understand that plants and microbes will buffer ph as they eat and create food for each other but I don't know exactly how that effects the ecosystem. The runt is going into a 5gal soon with a different coco perlite and peat mix so I can see if it behaves any differently. I wish I added peat at the beginning to hold a little acidity or just went straight coco and perlite.

Have you had any similar problems, op?

Have some driving to do but I'll get back at ya. Do you have a thread I can goto so we don't clutter this one up.

skillet12 · Jul 30, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Have some driving to do but I'll get back at ya. Do you have a thread I can go to so we don't clutter this one up.

Thanks, no hurry at all. Good idea, I don't wanna hijack the thread. Here's a new one:

Coco Soilless Water Retention & Buffering Issues

Hey yall, Someone suggested to move this discussion to a new thread to keep it from cluttering the original. Here's some context: A bit cluttered but this is where we're at. I'm mainly concerned about the medium ph and feed requirements at this point. I'm not able to fertigate daily per...

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Hows it looking(1st gro)

Hows it looking(1st gro)

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

FarmerJake

Porky1982

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

skillet12

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

skillet12

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

skillet12

Aqua Man

skillet12

Aqua Man

skillet12

Coco Soilless Water Retention & Buffering Issues

Hows it looking(1st gro)

Hows it looking(1st gro)

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

FarmerJake

Porky1982

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

skillet12

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Aqua Man

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

skillet12

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

skillet12

Aqua Man

skillet12

Aqua Man

skillet12

Coco Soilless Water Retention & Buffering Issues

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