Is Traditional Organics with Coco Possible?

[DoubleDub]

My favorite method of indoor growing is General Hydroponics in Coco Coir with perlite. This method is easy, cost effective, and yields great. After all I'm paying for the light and want to get every gram I can from my money spent.

My favorite method of outdoor growing is organics. Its simple, the lights free and it practically grows it self when hooked up to irrigation. Plus it provides for a perfectly healthy plant.

This outdoor season I did a 50/50 mix. Half was a modified version of Subcool's super soil, the other half was straight coco. About half way through flower I began feeding them GH nutes at very low levels. It turned out a great success. I had very little if any signs of deficiency and explosive growth rates.

Now I've been contemplating with my self whether or not completely getting rid of a soil mix is worth it. This would be accomplished using a soiless medium such as coco mixed with organic recipes commonly used throughout the community. Basically it would be coco mixed with bone meal, blood meal, kelp meal, greensand, dolomite, perlite etc.

Now my question for you is; would this medium be productive, effective, sufficient, or even practical for indoor and outdoor use?

Would there be enough microorganisms to breakdown the bone blood and other organics? Would it be possible to see the same explosive growth that is seen with synthetic nutrients in coco coir, or would I be faced with the fact that synthetics with always out yield organics? Is it possible to come close?

Also on a side note I've had many problems with indoor organics and fungus gnats. Would an organic coco mix help eliminate this or promote it? Would i still be able to introduce soil bearing natural predators?

Your thoughts, opinions, and critisims are strongly welcomed.

 

[The Geneticist]

Traditional Organics is timed released ferts. How traditional you talking bro. Id, use chem with ok, just a bit cleaner.

 

[GroHi]

DD~ you should have a conversation w MISS ELVIS... superior grasp of TLO. Here's a link to some posts on ME's philosophy



Coir is 100% "organic"... it just behaves uniquely. All the beneficial organism grow very well in coir, so would reason that the TLO concept could work for you. I really shouldn't comment any further on this as I don't personally do it. You will become a niche specialist, no doubt.

RE bene's~ subculture-M is great for the fungi (it has bacteria as well). try for a straight trichoderma mix if possible... all you really need... rootshield. roots excel by H&G is also great for a straight shot of bacteria. pretty much once you get them going in coir, they will always be there unless you dry it up.

RE fungus gnats~ they love the coir... they really, really do. Quite frankly, most all bugs are going to love the coir... 100% orgainic. Also, what is generally choice for the plants is also choice for many of the common pests.

RE production~ you can do TLO outside to get the "most" out of the girls. I could never grow indoor (same area or counts) as what a comparable outdoor will yield... so, there's one instance where the TLO can out yield the very best indoor garden. It's all an issue of trade offs, but you can come close enough indoors...

Just some thoughts. Peace brother.

 

[DoubleDub]

Traditional Organics is timed released ferts. How traditional you talking bro.

That is precisely what I am referring to. However I'm not sure time released is the correct way of looking at it.

I'm no expert on the topic but from what I read when we add organic matter like crushed up bones to our soil there are little microorganisms that come along and essentially eat and then shit it out. This becomes the usable nutes plant uses. Since the organisms cant eat it all at once they are constantly producing nutes and the plant is cantantly using them.

 

[DoubleDub]

DD~ you should have a conversation w MISS ELVIS... superior grasp of TLO. Here's a link to some posts on ME's philosophy

...

...RE fungus gnats~ they love the coir... they really, really do. Quite frankly, most all bugs are going to love the coir......
... [Production:] It's all an issue of trade offs [chem vs. organic] , but you can come close enough indoors [w/ TLO]...

...Just some thoughts. Peace brother.

Thanks for the reply. I would have never found that info about TLO had you not posted the link because it was a bit buried.

Fungus Gnats are a pain and now that you say that i do remember having real minor issues with fungus gnats in my coco but never anything like when i ran indoor organic soil. Those things were all over my nugs.

What is the name of the natural predator that can be introduced to your soil to control them again? I can't remember.

TLO is an interesting concept and I will look into it. As you'll read below it uses various techniques to decrease the amount of time it takes for the unusable organic matter to be broken down into usable nutrients.

For the purpose of improving this thread here is the post GroHi is referring to:

Some folks can't get a handle on organics so I can understand perfectly. It is simply much easier to pump a plant full of heavy metals, and use chemical fertilizers as you need not be in tune with your plants as you must be with True Living Organics. True Living Organics, vermiculture, natural compost teas and Permaculture are a completely different animal than just simply using organic nutrients. TLO require's a deeper understanding of soil/plant & Rhizosphere dynamics and is much easier to screw up, than a sterile chemical fertilizer grow. Though, when done "PROPERLY" TLO will outshine any well flushed chemically grown nug in taste complexity, smokability, aromatic persistence, terpene tenacity and most importantly won't poison you with heavy metal residue's(that linger regardless of extensive flushing). Most people don't realize that Mineral elements, while technically not organic since they previously weren't living carbon based matter are extremely beneficial in true living organics. Green-sand for instance is not organic but, is highly beneficial to the practice of TLO. As well as rock phosphate, dolomitic lime, Azomite, and K-mag. For a proper breakdown rate to occur in TLO you need to create different diverse micro climates in your container, this is to help facilitate the speedy breakdown of nutrient sources by micro-beasties to be made available for your plants. For example in a proper indoor TLO environment the nutrient breakdown rates will be much faster. For instance a soil "soup" of no diversity may take the stated 90 days for a bat guano supplement to breakdown(and still may not be fully utilized by the plant) but in a proper TLO environment the guano will be fully used in 30 days easy. Also, there are quite a few ready to use organic nutrients the likes that have never existed before, That are fully soil, coco, hydro garden compatible, solubilized and in readily available forms for immediate uptake by plants. The nature's nectar line for instance is a 3 part organic NPK regiment. Here is there info -N-Guaranteed Minimum Analysis is Available Phosphate (P205) 2.0% Calcium (Ca) 0.7%. Advantages: Completely solublized, instantly available source of nitrogen with no sediment 13% of formula contains 21 free amino acids Provides nutrition for beneficial bacteria improving conditions of growing medium Increases photosynthesis for a greener plant......-P-Guaranteed Minimum Analysis is Available Phosphate (P205) 2.0% Calcium (Ca) 0.7%. Advantages: Completely solubilized phosphorus source that also contains Calcium, and Organic acids which ensures the phosphorus is easily absorbed. Adds size and weight to fruits and flowers and Aids in root development...
-K-Guaranteed Minimum Analysis is Soluble Potash (K20) 5.0%. Advantages: Fast release potassium completely solubilized, The potassium source also contains cytokinins to increase number of flower sites, Simple and complex carbohydrates, and Alginic acid which ensures translocation of potassium into plants. Builds plants immune system with a combination of sea kelp species. Someone feeling apprehensive to taking on the full challenge of TLO growing should try this product line. It also works excellent for later use within a TLO grow as well!!!!!

Thanks guys!

 

[lurch]

DD whats happening? i did a 100% organic coco pith/perlite grow & turned out amazing. was a twisted version of a hempy. will rival any dwc. ill try to make this sound as simple as poss. coco was mixed w/ perlite & dry amendments. this was added in layers depending on NPK in which plant would need for that stage of her life. back to the coco/perlite mix.

used a 3g pail w/ 1/2" hole 3" from bottom. heres my layers...

1st layer-100% perlite(1/2" above overflow hole),1tsp pulverized eggshell, 1/2tsp lime

2-75% perl(5c), 25% coco(1.5c)

3-50% perl(2.5c), 40% coco(2c), 10% mush. compost(.5c)

4-25% perl(1.5c), 75% coco(3.75c), 1tsp terracycle guanos(npk=5-3-4),
3 tbs bone meal(6-12-0)

5th-0% perl, 100% coco(5c), 1c kelp(1-0-2), 1/2c blood meal(12-0-0)

in trans plant hole on bottom .5c colonized coffee grounds spread evenly then plant & .5c grounds packed in sides & topped w/ coco.

during stretch i watered every day about 1/2 gal. after stretch i watered as follows:

note:all water has been aerated min. 24-48hrs. blackstrap molasses 1tblsp/gal

mon-molasses/ro

tue-no water, mixed water,nutes, & molasses bubbled for 2 days

wed-no water - i like to starve girls for 2 days b/4 nutes so they eat all their food

thur-feed 48 hr tea mixed on tue

fri-no water

sat-molasses/ro

sun-no water


6.5 zips primo, 1 zip popcorn, 2.5-3 zips trim=6 plants 3' tall in 9sq ft x 4' high. CROWDED! not a huge yield, but now i know what kinda things coco can do im ready now. just got GH's new full GO bio line yesterday. all 8 qts for $25! promo going on. call & talk to a sales rep & then ask to sample. jesse asked if qts of full line would be alright? i laughed, he said $25 for s&h.
soooooo my grow that im starting here real quick is gunna be coco bucket w/ GO. also i ordered subcultures b & m.

hopefully i answered ur ? lol. oh & your gnat prob, just put 1" of sand on top of "soil". youll still have ones flying but theyll die off. if theyre only breeding in your pots that is.

take care

Lurch


off to find some pics...

 

[DoubleDub]

Absolutely beautiful plants my friend! Super interesting recipe. And you have proven my initial question. Gracias! And while it is a whole lot of work your plants sure look happy!

Ok I have a few questions

used a 3g pail w/ 1/2" hole 3" from bottom. heres my layers...

1st layer-100% perlite(1/2" above overflow hole),1tsp pulverized eggshell, 1/2tsp lime

Why the hole 3" from bottom? So that there's water always hangin out down below?

2-75% perl(5c), 25% coco(1.5c)

3-50% perl(2.5c), 40% coco(2c), 10% mush. compost(.5c)

4-25% perl(1.5c), 75% coco(3.75c), 1tsp terracycle guanos(npk=5-3-4),
3 tbs bone meal(6-12-0)

5th-0% perl, 100% coco(5c), 1c kelp(1-0-2), 1/2c blood meal(12-0-0)

How come the nutes are basically added at the top layers? Do they end up seeping down through the rest of the mix?

All in all nice recipe and technique.

Oh and General Hydro is the sheeit! I love their products. I used to live 15 min away from their facility! What i like best is that they don't leave out micros like iron and copper in their 3 part formula. AN is famous for this. They do this to try to encourage you to buy supplements. Gotta check out the GO line maybe ill give em a call today.

Also I believe your yield could have been much better. Perhaps more soluble nutes like teas more often would be the key to this. Kinda like what Mizz Elvis was talking about.

Anyhow thanks for the post!

 

[lurch]

dub d hows ya doin? alright ill try to explain.

1st off the hole in the bucket is there so there will always be a constant "res" level. its a modified hempy bucket basically.

2nd the amenedments are in only top 3 layers i guess cause thats just the way it worked out & thats all i had laying around. yes they eventuall get broke down by the EMs in the soil & well wash on down. in my water schedule when i say nutes its actually organics i have & just throw in according to plants development. brewing for 2 days min. i devoted 2 yrs of read & experimenting w/ TLO in my indoor & organic outside for 7 yrs. flower in a 3x3 area w/ a 600. i lollipopped em b4 flip but i wont pluck anything in flower until time to do so. my yield suffered b/c of insane growth from ill percieved power of coco. had a nice amount of popcorn & trim which yielded me 13g of bubble. im cleaning up my room & tuning itso in a month @ most ill be looking for a mom then scrogging w/ coco w/GO nutes. hopfully u tune into my GJ.

 

[solarz]

Lurch those buckets and concept look VERY VERY familiar...lol.

but as lurch has pointed out, organics can be utilized with coco...i've been running organically amended coco buckets similar to lurch's for some time now...and it is simple, and produces great end results.

solarz

 

[lurch]

solarz how r u man? havent seen ya over there in awhile. throw up some porn of ur girls. how many runs have you done w/ these buckets?

i just washed & cal/mg soaked my coco last night along w/ germin 5 citrals.

 

[solarz]

Whats up bro...i haven't been over there much. i'm actually back with the buckets...ive tried DWC, straight coco using a modified lucas formula, but NEVER, and i mean NEVER got any plants to look, or smoke as good as my organic coco buckets. So to say the least, i'm rolling wit them again. Right now, i have a room full of KillerChemdawgs i'm running in the buckets and they are on day 15 of flower. I'll throw up a few shots of some wonder haze that i just put into flower a few days ago, along with some SuperSilverChemdawgHaze (SSCDH).

I'm still amazed that you are able to still feed your girls teas with them already being amended. I had some C99 that was looking a bit yellow, so i made up a weak fish/kelp team and fed them and burned the shit out of them (as i knew i would...), so i've learned my leason (AGAIN...) about feeding my ladies teas. I was tempted to run straight coco and only feed veg/flowering teas, but decided to go with simplicity,although making teas aint all that hard...

solarz

 

[solarz]

The first few are Mosca's Fly pack (which i'm thinking is the C99) and the last couple of pics are the Wonder Hazes (2 different phenos).

I'll try to get some more up later. These are all in organically amended coco hempy buckets.

solarz

 

[lurch]

they look real healthy.r those 3g buckets? thats crazy that you have been burning ur plants w/ tea, especially w/ the coco. r u useing the same coco that u initially used when u 1st tried these buckets? if so what was the brand(s)? r u flushing coco b4 use? still baffles me that is happening. maybe bubblicious can just take some serious nutes.

 

[solarz]

Man i've tried a few different types of strains in these buckets....and its burned them all. I'm not sure what it is either...but i digress...lol. Those are actually ~2 gals and i just wrapped them up with foil tape. I'm actually not too happy with my soil mix this time around, because i feel that some of my plants are lacking N. I had to use some cheap EWC from Wally's (as well as some mushroom compost), and my plants just aren't as green as others (or as green as they usually are). I'm gonna have to find another source of EWC and add that to my mix.

Who's bubblicious are you running?

solarz

 

[lurch]

man thats a bummer w/the burn & worm poop. yeah i always had prob w/ gnats in mush comp. you got any fish emulsion & some kelp? might wanna give em a lil shot. what kind of water u useing & whats ph? i havent ever checked mine but most do.

well hope u sort this out. kinda feel u might be thinking of throwin in the towel. hope not.

throwing you some mojo. oh yeah nirvanas, but ill be buying somone elses just to see if i can find that keeper. yah got any recs on a breeder for such?

oh just dawned on me. have u been uesing cal mag?

 

[solarz]

Whats up bro....i use mostly tap water, thats been bubbled for at least 24 hrs...although sometimes i have used RO. I have no clue what the tap water PH is...as i've never checked it. I haven't used cal-mag so to say, but once a few weeks ago, i hit them with some Epsom salts in their watering b/c i was detecting a bit of a deficiency. I'm not throwing in the towel...i just hate that my decision to go with the Mush. Compost in place of the EWC is causing me some issues, that i've never had before with using this same exact recipe (minus the Mush. Compost).

as far as breeders go for bubblicious specifically....i can't say that i know one off hand, b/c its never really peaked my interest. Although, i've heard awesome things about BOG's "bubblegum" gear, although i don't know if that is anywhere close to the genes you're growing at the moment.

solarz

 

[LionVibez]

hey Lurch i had a question that maybe u can help me with....I too got a pack of the GH "GO" lineup and was thinkin about runnin some cuts in straight coco (bcuzz brand) just to see how they do. I normally use a soil mix and after hearing how coco yields better etc..i want to give it a try. Have u used any of the "GO" bio line on your coco plants yet? I use RO water but dont have a ph pen or tds meter lol....so im not sure what the ppms or ph are on the nutes when mixed up. Any help is appreciated! Thanks

 

[lurch]

Whats up bro....i use mostly tap water, thats been bubbled for at least 24 hrs...although sometimes i have used RO. I have no clue what the tap water PH is...as i've never checked it. I haven't used cal-mag so to say, but once a few weeks ago, i hit them with some Epsom salts in their watering b/c i was detecting a bit of a deficiency. I'm not throwing in the towel...i just hate that my decision to go with the Mush. Compost in place of the EWC is causing me some issues, that i've never had before with using this same exact recipe (minus the Mush. Compost).

as far as breeders go for bubblicious specifically....i can't say that i know one off hand, b/c its never really peaked my interest. Although, i've heard awesome things about BOG's "bubblegum" gear, although i don't know if that is anywhere close to the genes you're growing at the moment.

solarz

solarz id use ro w/ 1/4 tsp epsom/gal for couiple wks & see if they bounce back. not knowing ppm or ph of tap is ballzy if u ask me. hopefully this is ur prob.

thanks 4 the info on the bub.

 

[lurch]

hey Lurch i had a question that maybe u can help me with....I too got a pack of the GH "GO" lineup and was thinkin about runnin some cuts in straight coco (bcuzz brand) just to see how they do. I normally use a soil mix and after hearing how coco yields better etc..i want to give it a try. Have u used any of the "GO" bio line on your coco plants yet? I use RO water but dont have a ph pen or tds meter lol....so im not sure what the ppms or ph are on the nutes when mixed up. Any help is appreciated! Thanks

LV whats up? id just popped 5 seeds & will be put into coco on the wkend. however id mix coco w/ perlite @ a 60/40 ratio.

i have not used GO line yet but as soon as i do ill be putting up a journal. make sure to flush coco well b4 use. i flush 3x's water/soil rate. then squeeze out excess water. then i soak for couple days in ph'd ro & cal/mg solution(tsp/gal). ring out water, mix w/ perlite then plant away.

put up a journal when you get it going. good luck

 

[paco666]

could you break down your bucket build, and how you go about prepping you coco for its first time use.....?

very much appreciated.....