I’ll watch. It’ll be interesting to compare your results to mine. I use masterblend, it’s nearly Identical to jacks just different brands

Pileit said:

Thanks so much for this thread. A couple weeks ago we made the switch to jacks 321. We switched all rooms mid stream. Plants never looked better. Have tried cyco, h+g, canna and others. Still have gallons of all those. Flowers swelling up in flower rooms, stocks and leaves thickening in veg. Feels like we got it. First time ever I don't feel like I need to be searching for a better product.

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U in soil homie? Or soilless

Kushymane said:

U in soil homie? Or soilless

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Coco perlite blend.

first time poster, long time reader. found this forum/ post looking for tips with jacks 321and this thread. I grew once a long ass time ago, over 10 years and got the urge to want to try again, aka, im considering myself new and forgetting everything I thought I knew.
wanted to try coco, as I heard it was supposed to be a little faster in the veg dept, and with that got turned to jacks 321.
first few tries were with canna coco bricks @ 321 and that burned them.
next ive tried a soil coco mix, just to get seedlings to start, and that seems to not be working, can't water as often as needed, but the idea was to transplant to a coco mix ( fresh bag of Tupur) and no soil.
I think this might help:

hyzerflip said:

fwiw that 1.6EC includes my 0.4EC tap water. The rest is Jack's @ 3.7g/gal and Cal-Nit @ 2.5g/gal

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might have to try that, with my tap being the same. just cut out the epsom unless the plants show need for it.

also just to add using 330w ChilLEd
temp is around 80o F and around %50 without any way to AC or really adjust humidity.

How concerned should I be about salts absorbing moisture and throwing values off?
I’ve been measuring everything by grams but I’m thinking EC would be more accurate way of doing things.

What should the ppm/EC of each salt be?
I could bake my salts to make sure they’re dry then weigh and mix a batch and find out.

Spacekadet42 said:

How concerned should I be about salts absorbing moisture and throwing values off?
I’ve been measuring everything by grams but I’m thinking EC would be more accurate way of doing things.

What should the ppm/EC of each salt be?
I could bake my salts to make sure they’re dry then weigh and mix a batch and find out.

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Not at all. Some of the salts are already bound to H2O, e.g. Epsom Salt is Magnesium Sulfate bound to seven H20 molecules - MgSO4·7H2O.

What is MOST and where do I find it

It is the trace elements or micronutrients..... You can use it with fertilizer that doesn't have calcium in it.

You can find on Amazon or from JR Peters (Jacks).
https://www.amazon.com/PETERS-JACKS-PROFESSIONAL-ELEMENT-FERTILIZER/dp/B01MSY53PK

So with the full strength nutes being around 728ppm, does anyone raise the gram per gallon of both part a and part b to achieve a higher ppm? Or is the 3.6 2.5 a good spot to stop at?

2kellz said:

So with the full strength nutes being around 728ppm, does anyone raise the gram per gallon of both part a and part b to achieve a higher ppm? Or is the 3.6 2.5 a good spot to stop at?

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I have been tinkering with Jack's formulas in my 50 light room for years now. I have had some really good results (2.5 to 3 lbs per 1000w gavita de). That being said, I'm constantly frustrated because for me the recommended recipe 3.6-2.4-1.1 is often problematic. Let me just lay out what I've learned because I'm really curious if others have had similar experience.

We usually grow in pure Coco (botanicare bricks), but have started adding a layer of perlite to the bottom of standard 5 gallon pots to help with drainage and fungus gnats. We have mixed perlite in with Coco, but decided it wasn't worth the effort. Also, we hand water, almost always feed nutrients (never just water) and water to fairly heavy runoff. Ph 5.8. ec 1.5 to 1.9. (lower for young plants/rooted clones) we use r.o water.

For whatever reason we seem to struggle unless we give near equal parts (by weight) of Jack's 5-12-26 and calcium nitrate. So normally we mix 625 grams per gallon of each and add epsom between 200-250 grams per gallon. Years ago, the people at jr peters told us we may not need to add magnesium to the mix. This is something I've also heard many people say on forums. In my case, we need the added magnesium clear as day. Some strains more than others for sure, but we add it, and have had much better results using it.

For additives I use mycos/azos during transplants, bio weed, dry fulvic, hydrogaurd, potassium silicate, sea-90, and m.o.s.t, but the more we grow, the less additives we're using, often using one additive per 250 gallon batch, or none at all. We also add phosphorus in flower. Sometimes Jack's blossom booster, sometimes moab etc..



I have often thought I could change the recipe and lower calcium/magnesium and raise Jack's after a few weeks of flower. The thinking being Coco need more cal and mag early on until adjusted. I have not had much success trying to implement this, but I'm going to try it again this run.

My thoughts
-I'm often seeing purple petioles and not exactly sure why. I know this is fairly common with Jack's. Maybe too much calcium causing slight phosphorus def? This is something I haven't been able to figure out.

-often struggle early in veg. We used to try to use the same ec in flower and veg, but until roots are established this hasn't worked well for us. Now using a much lower ec 1.0 to start, then up from there. Also not watering to runoff early on. This caused too much water in the bottom of the pot and roots wouldn't fill in. Still, early veg isn't perfect. At this stage it's clear they need more calcium than the standard 321 provides. We also see mag def in veg with some strains, and spray epsom weekly to resolve.

I would love to hear from anyone who has had similar experience using Jack's in Coco. I'm happy to share everything I've learned. I'm considering switching to another company, or at least doing a side by side. I love Jack's for many reasons, but I guess I feel like I can't quite get it dialed in the way I'd like.

So just my thoughts on some of this.

1. Cool rootzones can cause purpling but if it just on the petiole I would assume its cause by exposure to high light and is simply anthocyanan. Are the petiole lower on the plant that get less light also purple?

2. IMO adding perlite to the bottom is like reducing the pot size. Why not just use smaller pots if not mixing it in.

3. Nutrient ratios are important. Im sure you can reverse engineer the salts to figure them out. Sorry if I'm honest im to lazy today but will do tomorrow if you need help.

You want your calcium somewhere between half of K and equal to nitrogen. Ideally in full feed aboit 120ppm of nitrogen or there abouts.

Ca to Mg in a ratio atleast 3 to 1 but I prefer 2 to 1.

Ratios are the absolute most important factor when dealing with nutrients.

4. P is not taken up in large amounts and is kinda of accumulated if my mind serves me right. So a bump in P a week or 2 before flower may help if you truly think you are see a P deficiency start which is usually around 3rd week of flower if it happens.

I feel like you ppm/ec is to high if your not running co2. I would say 1.2-1.6 would be a much better place. Environment also plays a huge role even if you have enough calcium etc. if the plants transpiration slows you can see deficiencies develop from it.

Just my thoughts and hope ya get it sorted.

I think Aqua is spot on, I like to run K to Ca to Mg in 4 -2 -1 ratio (ex. 200K 100Ca 50Mg ) or close to that, one question I have is are you guys properly buffering the coco until saturation at start, for me that was the most important part because if not some of the nutrients meant for the plants are being held onto by the media throwing everything off, I'm sure your aware of that just mentioning it as you stated you have had early issues from the start in early veg.

Also have you guys ever mixed your nutes from scratch, mixing 250 gallon batches would be worth it, its easy, and you would have far more control, easy to make adjustments and dial the nutes in.

Aqua Man said:

So just my thoughts on some of this.

1. Cool rootzones can cause purpling but if it just on the petiole I would assume its cause by exposure to high light and is simply anthocyanan. Are the petiole lower on the plant that get less light also purple?

2. IMO adding perlite to the bottom is like reducing the pot size. Why not just use smaller pots if not mixing it in.

3. Nutrient ratios are important. Im sure you can reverse engineer the salts to figure them out. Sorry if I'm honest im to lazy today but will do tomorrow if you need help.

You want your calcium somewhere between half of K and equal to nitrogen. Ideally in full feed aboit 120ppm of nitrogen or there abouts.

Ca to Mg in a ratio atleast 3 to 1 but I prefer 2 to 1.

Ratios are the absolute most important factor when dealing with nutrients.

4. P is not taken up in large amounts and is kinda of accumulated if my mind serves me right. So a bump in P a week or 2 before flower may help if you truly think you are see a P deficiency start which is usually around 3rd week of flower if it happens.

I feel like you ppm/ec is to high if your not running co2. I would say 1.2-1.6 would be a much better place. Environment also plays a huge role even if you have enough calcium etc. if the plants transpiration slows you can see deficiencies develop from it.

Just my thoughts and hope ya get it sorted.

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Thanks for the info. We just tried the perlite in the bottom to stop fungus gnats from crawling in the holes in the pot, and I thought it might help some with drainage. I'm not using c02, but was until recently. That being said, I hear you about the ec, but the plants seem underfed when I go much below 1.5. The hand watering vs 2 or more feedings per day good play a role. Less dry cycles. I guess the thing that's bugging me is why am I having to, and why others aren't having to run cal at higher levels than recommended. I just feel like I'm missing something. I know it throws off the ratio, but every time I stray, I end up going back. I know there are endless variables, and I am generally happy with the results. Just thought maybe someone could help me understand what I could do to improve. Thanks again

Also increasing Mg can increase the plants demand for P.

LBC said:

Thanks for the info. We just tried the perlite in the bottom to stop fungus gnats from crawling in the holes in the pot, and I thought it might help some with drainage. I'm not using c02, but was until recently. That being said, I hear you about the ec, but the plants seem underfed when I go much below 1.5. The hand watering vs 2 or more feedings per day good play a role. Less dry cycles. I guess the thing that's bugging me is why am I having to, and why others aren't having to run cal at higher levels than recommended. I just feel like I'm missing something. I know it throws off the ratio, but every time I stray, I end up going back. I know there are endless variables, and I am generally happy with the results. Just thought maybe someone could help me understand what I could do to improve. Thanks again

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Transpiration rates play a big role in calcium uptake. Have you tried warmer temps and slightly lower humidity?

Dr.Green55 said:

I think Aqua is spot on, I like to run K to Ca to Mg in 4 -2 -1 ratio (ex. 200K 100Ca 50Mg ) or close to that, one question I have is are you guys properly buffering the coco until saturation at start, for me that was the most important part because if not some of the nutrients meant for the plants are being held onto by the media throwing everything off, I'm sure your aware of that just mentioning it as you stated you have had early issues from the start in early veg.

Also have you guys ever mixed your nutes from scratch, mixing 250 gallon batches would be worth it, its easy, and you would have far more control, easy to make adjustments and dial the nutes in.

Click to expand...

Thanks for replying. I think that's where I'm a little confused. To my understanding, the way I'm currently mixing for most of the run is how I should mix with new Coco to buffer it. It's just that after the first few weeks of veg I've tried lowering cal, and things seem to go south. How long do you feel like it takes before cal and probably mag can stop being boosted in Coco (when using new Coco)? As for mixing from scratch, I'm interested for the reasons you stated. The other thing I've been contemplating is moving away from Coco because I feel like my issues are related to the cocos unique ability to hang onto calcium/magnesium. I do feel like I can't quite get things perfect with Jack's. Love the simplicity tho. I honestly haven't spent much time calculating The ratios of everything in the 5 12 26, but have been making adjustments to the 321 recipe and sticking with what's giving best results. Maybe it's time to start

Aqua Man said:

Also increasing Mg can increase the plants demand for P.

Transpiration rates play a big role in calcium uptake. Have you tried warmer temps and slightly lower humidity?

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I've been seeing better results lately trying to stay close to vpd, basically keeping humidity as high as I'm comfortable with until late flower. I did better with this vs sealed room with c02 (which made the vpd thing nearly impossible because of the higher temps). That, along with the fact that I was using propane generators, and they were causing issues unless I ventilated multiple times per day. I ultimately came to the conclusion I was better off just ventilating for now. Never a boring day

LBC said:

I've been seeing better results lately trying to stay close to vpd, basically keeping humidity as high as I'm comfortable with until late flower. I did better with this vs sealed room with c02 (which made the vpd thing nearly impossible because of the higher temps). That, along with the fact that I was using propane generators, and they were causing issues unless I ventilated multiple times per day. I ultimately came to the conclusion I was better off just ventilating for now. Never a boring day

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So here is my thoughts... with co2 transpiration is slowed down so you need to feed higher amounts of ferts, with VPD is how we regulate transpiration rates. So im kinda thinking the co2 forst and now the higher humidity are whats causing the issues.

How are you calculating VPD? Taking leaf temps into account correct? If not this could very well be the culprit.

Are you under LED?

LBC said:

That, along with the fact that I was using propane generators, and they were causing issues unless I ventilated multiple times per day.

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Sorry to get off topic but what issues are you having with the Co2 generators? Are you implying they are giving off something harmful in your sealed room? How often were you purging the room to fix this and did you inspect the burning to see if it was a mechanical issue?

LBC said:

Thanks for replying. I think that's where I'm a little confused. To my understanding, the way I'm currently mixing for most of the run is how I should mix with new Coco to buffer it. It's just that after the first few weeks of veg I've tried lowering cal, and things seem to go south. How long do you feel like it takes before cal and probably mag can stop being boosted in Coco (when using new Coco)? As for mixing from scratch, I'm interested for the reasons you stated. The other thing I've been contemplating is moving away from Coco because I feel like my issues are related to the cocos unique ability to hang onto calcium/magnesium. I do feel like I can't quite get things perfect with Jack's. Love the simplicity tho. I honestly haven't spent much time calculating The ratios of everything in the 5 12 26, but have been making adjustments to the 321 recipe and sticking with what's giving best results. Maybe it's time to start

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Ok, so your coco should be buffered before you even use it, Do you know if the coco you are using is just washed or if its buffered, there is a big difference in the 2, or are you buffering it before you use it?

Here is my understanding , So coco's cation exchange complex is naturally saturated with sodium and potassium, washing can only remove little of this as the bond between the coco and elements are to strong for just water to remove, Thats where buffering comes in. saturating the CEC with Cal/mag and iron. those are the 5 elements at play sodium/potassium and cal/mag and iron.

Coco is generally a negative charge and is naturally full of sodium and potassium, which is bonded to the coco saturating the CEC, So what we want to do is remove that, we do that by using cal/mag and iron, by saturating the the coco (CEC) with this for a period of time we exchange the sodium/potassium for cal/mag and iron, because they have a stronger bond to the coco displacing the sodium and potassium to be rinsed out.

if this is done properly when you feed your plants there is very very little exchange of calcium nitrate, Magnesium and iron , because the CEC is already saturated with it, So what you feed goes to the plants not the coco.

if this is not done, when you feed your plants the calcium nitrate, Magnesium and iron is being exchanged in the CEC for sodium and potassium because it has a stronger bond to the coco, so the feed for the plants cal/mag and iron ends up going to the coco, and sodium and potassium in the coco is displaced into your feed for the plants. making a mess of things

I haven't used coco in awhile so I'm not sure what its like anymore, but when I was using it I found even the buffered coco wasn't buffered to my liking, I found it a pain in the ass washing and buffering it thats why I went to sunshine.

If want to know about mixing nutes its easy and plenty of guys on here to help, If you want PM I can give you some info, and recipes in g/l so you can mix any size batch you want. once you learn how to adjust it you can dial it in to whatever you want, but you'll also be able to make a seeding mix , veg mix , pre-flower mix and flower mix and not have to add anything extra as it will all be in it, other then microbes, and enzymes, the only other things i use is fulvic and some kelp, I play around sometime with other stuff but I really don;t thing it is needed.

hope some of this helps

Aqua Man said:

So here is my thoughts... with co2 transpiration is slowed down so you need to feed higher amounts of ferts, with VPD is how we regulate transpiration rates. So im kinda thinking the co2 forst and now the higher humidity are whats causing the issues.

How are you calculating VPD? Taking leaf temps into account correct? If not this could very well be the culprit.

Are you under LED?

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I use 1000w gavita de in flower. I do take leaf temp. Thanks for the input.