Leaves rolling up of edges with strange bumpy surface

[Seaweed]

Hello to all - I'm happy to join with you. :handshakeI've been at this for over 7 years, and have a problem I've never seen before, and cannot diagnose. (I'm going to try to attach a picture; first time, bear with me).

New growth leaves are curling up along the margins, and also, the texture of the leaf is strange - bumpy - or like crepe paper. It is happening on new growth only. I've checked my books and was unable to find anything fitting this combination of symptoms, and for new growth. Once the leaves come out, they don't continue to grow, and in a week or so, die.

The body of the plant (a new mother) seems to stay healthy - at least, so far. She got to be about 3' tall, and a few months old before this started happening. She is a White Russian from Serious, and grows in a modified deep water culture system in hydroton (same as I've always used). Her roots look healthy.

No system changes have been made - temp., humidity, lighting, nutrients, etc.
I've been getting away with tap water all these years, but monitor the EC, and have never had a problem.

So far I've tried flushing the system well (ran continuously for 2 days when lights are on, and used a little Clearex). This did nothing. When I refilled the sump/controller with fresh solution, I used 50% R.O. water (schlepped from a local water station) - just in case something funky and new has showed up in the tap source. Again, no result. Tried trimming off some of the sick new shoots, and new ones are produced with the same problem.

Hope someone has an idea. She's from the last seed I had, and I need clones from her. :sweating. Thanks!

 

[Mud Man]

Might need this moving to the INFIRMARY section dude!


Man, that is crazy... Your girl other wise looks lush and healthy imo.. nice shiny leaf
Someone will know more than me, plenty of knowledgeable kats on here.. Looks like Overfeed burn, crazy lock out.... but that's my noob opinion and not a great deal of help... good luck

 

[Seaweed]

HA! Infirmary indeed. Thanks - I'm going to need that luck. Yes, I thought it looked like overfeed too! But, she didn't respond to the flush. Oh, yes... don't forget the dudettes...

 

[Seaweed]

OOPS! thought you were joking. Didn't realize the "Infirmary" was an actual forum - will see if I can copy to there.

 

[Seamaiden]

Ask a mod to move it for you.

I wish I could help you with that problem, but I can't. Only thing I know of that can cause crepiness is mosaic virus, so at this point I don't think I can be of much help.

 

[nurlord]

What sucks is I've had that exact same phenomenon happen to me. It started with some plants in veg and continued into flowering. I lost about 20% of a crop to this. I figured it had to be heat or poor air quality(I was running a closed system with C02). It cost me a bunch of mothers too. I never did figure it out but when I started over with entirely new plants the disease never came back.

 

[ScuzyRoach]

I got lazy and started watering my mother room w/o checking ph for awhile. I started getting really weird stuff like that happen. seemed to have similar looking leaf curl and mag. def. appearance. I flushed them and started to ph water again and they responded. Maybe a light foilar for awhile so they can get micro nutes. did your water company switch to chloramine instead of chlorine. this wont dissapte into the air and may be a problem. It takes a bit to come around. Learned that the hard way too. I dont think a 50% water swap out would take care of a problem like that. I've never had a virus problem so have no info on that ???? Hope you find out, good luck.

 

[moodster]

nute burn or nute lockout or bad ph i would flush her

 

[Seaweed]

Seamaiden - I thought maybe mosaic, too - have never had - but I've read that comes along with mottled/spotted leaves (?). The other thing that is confusing is that it is on new growth only - as if it were from the not-so-mobile nuts.

Nulord - yes, definitely distressing. I'm thinking I might just need to pitch her; maybe this is only for an electron microscope and a plant pathologist!

Scuzy - I've wondered about the switch to chloramines as well, and I'm planning to call and ask. The other day I read that only certain filters that will take it out. I wasn't sure a 50% R.O. would work, either - someone suggested that it's best to switch to R.O. gradually, not all at once. Sounded reasonable, but... I'll try the 100% now. A foliar feed with micro-nuts is a good idea - maybe that will relieve her stress a bit. I threw in a bit of B-1 in her water. If she doesn't respond, I think I have to conclude it is a virus, and must let her go.

Thanks y'all. If things change for the better I'll report back. In the meantime, bring forth any other thoughts!

 

[Seaweed]

BUG I.D. - Have a bug/insect, only on those new-growth leaves. Now here because of weakness? or maybe longer - not sure. Have never seen it before. It's not a spider mite, nor thrips, nor worm-like, nor aphid-like. Holy Moly, what's next. Looks like a completely clear ladybug without wings, but incredibly small - not visible without our little hand held microscope. Can't count the legs, but absolutely certain it isn't a spider mite. Can't see larvae vs. adult forms now. HAVE YOU SEEN A LITTLE BUGGER LIKE THIS BEFORE??? I know we should all strive to embrace our new experiences, BUT THIS IS THE WORST!!!

 

[Seaweed]

... bug bodies are a little more elongated than a lady-bug, and they have slightly pointy asses...

 

[Seaweed]

I think I've discovered the problem - thought I'd share the new discovery. The bugs I found are "rust mites" (pretty sure), and although they're not discussed as bugs on cannabis, they're out there. The physical description of them fits perfectly. They're usually outside, and attack fruits, and can cause the weird bumpy surface and leaf deformity. Since the symptoms match, I'm assuming they were here first, and caused the damage, rather than their showing up later dur to plant stress.

I got some cuttings from a friend who has been growing this plant for several years, and has his plants outdoors usually. His plants don't have this, but maybe outdoors these buggers have more natural enemies. Inside here, they're definitely having a party.

Before I knew what they were, I sprayed three rounds of Azatrol, my favorite OMRI killer. Knocked most of them out, but some still remain. Research revealed the way to kill them is with a sulfur- based fungicide. So, will spray today, and see what happens. Hopefully they're recover soon enough.

Hope this is helpful to someone else. Can never have too much info - right?

 

[Progression1]

Seaweed - I have the exact same problem!

Started a grow about 3 weeks ago. It was on one single plant, really bad. I destroyed the plant, but it spread to the ones nearby it. Only affecting the new growth. Roots look fine. Just a simple top-fed coco setup. I looked under a microscope - I see tiny (1/3 spider mite size) bugs, 6-8 legs, with a relatively large amber body that looks like a tiny drop of tree sap.

I hit them with azamax last week, and the problem is still spreading. I'm going to try SNS217 on them tomorrow, hopefully that will help.

Just did a google image search - some pics look spot on to what I'm seeing in the garden.

Hopefully this isn't an up and coming epidemic, so far they seem A LOT more damaging than spider mites.

Please keep me posted with how your battle progresses.

What part of the country are you located in?

 

[Seaweed]

Hi P1! - just checked back in - thought maybe the tread was dead. I've learned much since last posting, and will share.

I'm in socal. I believe IT IS an up and coming epidemic. Surfing about I saw someone in Colorado had it, and another person (don't remember from what area) as well. Like killer bees from Africa, there's always going to be something new, I guess.

More research showed a specific type for this family of bug is SPECIFIC to hemp (wouldn't you JUST KNOW). AKA "hemp russet mites" - aculops cannabicola, of family eriophyoidea (a "eriophoid" mite). With these names you can Google successfully, but unfortunately, there isn't a lot known about them. Now that they're here, maybe the Sci Guys and Gals will get on it. In my reading, the guess is they're from Serbia. And there is no known control, per the bible, "Hemp Diseases and Pests". The authors of that book mention they had success by bagging individual plants and filling with CO2, basically suffocating them. No recommended ppms were listed.

I found that when young they look more white and round, and as they mature, they're your amber color, and more elongated. I read that while most bugs are repelled by the oils secreted by cannabis, these seem to not mind. In fact, they ate off the hairs on some Master Kush flowers ("mmmmmmm, delectable" - in Homer Simpson's voice). They are so freaking tiny the normal ridges of the leaf are like the grand canyon for them.

I experimented with sealing up the room extra tight, and gassing at around 4500 ppms. No luck, so took it to 10,000. No luck - guessed the distribution of CO2 wasn't ideal. So began with individual bagging (flowering plants weren't too advanced at that time) for 2 hour spans. I seem to have killed them with a combo of the gassing and maximum dosage of Azatrol - but only on the Master Kush. A White Russian mother keeps coming back with them, even though I've stayed on a relentless schedule, assuming a life cycle similar to spider mites, but I'm still having problems with her. I'm continuing to watch the MK mom - so far so good. I believe that if I see them again, I'm simply going to have to destroy them.

By the way, I didn't know, but luckily found out before doing the gassing, be sure your plants are in the dark with that level of CO2, or you'll kill them.

If you're still experimenting, I was told that Avid might be a good try. Also, I think "Hemp Diseases and Pests" suggests trying predator bugs - can't recall just what they suggested, but you can Google it and the text from the book will show up in the search.

Since the system here needs to continue, I don't want to bring up weak plants from weak mothers, and take chances, so I've got to bail and start over. I'm out of time on experimenting. I'm washing the walls and as much equipment as possible with bleach and/or H2O2, and hoping that remaining eggs anywhere will be destroyed.

I've always dreamed of a 100 light set up, but if these things arrived in a situation like that, you'd simply have to burn it to the ground...

Let me know what you learn, as well.

Peace

 

[Seamaiden]

Wow, my son's been having a hell of a time with mites and he's in SoCal as well. Thanks for this information, sorry it's turning out to be so tough for you.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

no pest strips. I didn't think they would kill the borg, but they worked when nothing else did. Erradicated, not just put on hold until later.

good luck.

 

[PuFFnNugg]

Try organacide, can get at hardware store, all organic kills the crap out of bugs. Plants also thrive on it. I'm not familiar with the products you tried, but maybe a systemic pesticide since they feed on plant. I used Bayer Tree n Shrub on Root Aphids and it worked awesome! I used at 1/4 teaspoon a gal, in a recirculating hydro, I know you can double that too. It last for like 3 wks. Use them in conjunction for bout $30 and trip to hardware store. I have yet to see a bug live through both.

 

[Buddy Flowers]

nute burn and/or heat stress

 

[Seaweed]

Wow, my son's been having a hell of a time with mites and he's in SoCal as well. Thanks for this information, sorry it's turning out to be so tough for you.

Hey Seamaiden - Thanks for the sympathy - Now I think I'm winning the war :fighting0003: I almost chopped down the White Russion mom, but she's now clear. I hope she'll stay that way.

The combo of the Azatrol (OMRI listed) and bagging with high ppms of CO2 - several rounds of each, must have done it. I was inspecting everyday, jumping into action at the site of one bug... :hunter: did loose one batch of clones. But, I'm still checking daily for newly hatched buggers before I claim absolute victory :party0044:

Someone mentioned to try pest strips. IMO, these wouldn't work because these buggers don't leave the leaves/fly. Someone else mentioned Bayer systemic - and that IS good stuff - I tried that early on, and I was surprised that it did absolutely nothing...

Hope this will help your boy!

 

[Seamaiden]

Yeah, Seaweed, he was up here visiting this last weekend and going on and on and on about his problems with the mites, all the different things he's tried and they never work 100%. I was going to send him home with some nice cuts since he always pays for them at the clubs, have a buncha Blockhead, a sweet SFV OK Kush crossed with Jack Herer (aka Longbottom Leaf), some Spaceship, some Mendo Purps crossed with Grape Krush that is looking incredibly outside right now, and of course a coupla Kushes, more stuff than I can remember right now even. He wanted it all, then turned it down because he felt they'd just die when he got them into his grow area.

Anyway, I finally emailed him this whole thread and then linked him to your research post. It's about all he's got left at this point.

NPS can work if the plants are in an enclosed space. But it's not such a good thing for us or our pets. They are easy to find, but I believe that bugs can become resistant to them, just like with many other things.