Looking For Ideas For Trellis

[Randog3]

looking for ideas to trellis or support a plant 5'x5' and approximately 7' tall without being tied down into trellis. I have a few ideas but don't want to influence any other fresh ideas. Each plant will sit in a 3x3 flood table, drip drain to waste.

 

[Junk]

Can you walk through all those pathways in the pic? Like the space between the left row & the wall...or the middle "corridor"....can you walk down them?

If so, what you have there is the perfect setup for a permanent scrog. Just build a 3' x whatever frame & scrog it.

Scrog is usually the best way to produce...but it's a pain in the neck because it's hard to get under. Because you are not soil, & because the trays are only 3' wide, you won't have that problem. With your setup, that's they way to go in my opinion. Scrog it. If I'm not answering your question correctly, maybe clarify what you mean...

 

[Seamaiden]

Two options here, one would require some sort of staking to create a frame for the Hortonova. I am now using cut pieces of conduit pipe, it's a lot cheaper than T-bars and I can find the lengths I want (this is for outside).

The other option I see is pigwire, and it would create its own frame. Just watch out for those joints, they'll cut a bitch.

 

[Randog3]

Yea the aisles are designed to walk up and down. The tables are 3x3. The 20 gal coco pots sit inside of each tray.

Sea maiden what do you mean by cut conduit? Like precut conduit? I can buy conduit but what structure do you make with it?

 

[3N1GM4]

Pvc pipe and joints, put together like a frame with holes drilled in it for strings to go through

 

[Randog3]

Pvc pipe and joints, put together like a frame with holes drilled in it for strings to go through
View attachment 569426

Love it. Priced it out with pvc fittings and it's was ridiculous. Came out to around 5k buyin everything in bulk and using 1". Think I can use 1/2"? Might be significantly cheaper.

 

[3N1GM4]

If they are in a line you wouldn't need elbows on every tub, you could do a really long one with just a few elbows

 

[tobh]

pvc is a bitch to work with though and isn't rigid over distance. Bamboo or (untreated) wood might be a more affordable option if you went that route, especially at scale. The fact you can run long lengths horizontally without any slouching or bowing is a big plus there too.

I think @Seamaiden was referring to conduit she ripped in half (maybe?) I've done it before for building various different kinds of frame structures. Great stuff and cheaper than pvc in most cases. With the scale you're at, nothing it going to be "cheap" unfortunately. Can save a grand using one material over the other though!

 

[The Terps]

Bamboo

 

[Junk]

Pvc pipe and joints, put together like a frame with holes drilled in it for strings to go through
View attachment 569426

That ^^^ is exactly what I was talking about OP. In my opinion, nothing will compare production wise, & ease of growing. The drawback is that they are a pita to work under. Where yours are narrow & hydro, you don't have to get under there much.

However, don't make them separate, you lose a lot of space over the whole thing. The only reason to make them separate is if you are putting the buckets/trays on wheels.

& I prefer to frame them. It may just be because I'm used to working with wood (although, I'm used to working with pvc & copper too?) I can stand on mine (I do lol) Here it is the day of the flip

Here it is a few days after

& here it is a week or so ago...

IN MY OPINION, scrog is the most efficient way. I've told you about some of the downfalls (hard to work under etc) to a scrog. Here's some of the mistakes I've made making them.

PVC is good, but not over any distance more than 6'. Anything more than that, & you will need support "studs." You can look up how to do it. The nice thing about PVC is that generally, if YOU select the parts to build it, you can make them so they fit tight enough...& then the scrog can be broken down when you don't need it. Like I said, over your distance. You would need a few cripple sized support "studs." I've seen people try to suspend the scrog from the ceiling, which is a good idea, because you won't need support studs...it's easy to raise & lower. However I tried it the last run & wasn't very happy with it. In retrospect, I think it was because I made 6'x6' square. A square PVC design is floppy if you suspend it.

2x4 in my opinion is the best solution for what you are doing. I don't know how much you know about construction, but if you like, I can show/explain it. Unless you are going to be standing on it, you won't need that many support studs for the span. If you aren't going to stand on it, one every 10-12' would be fine. If your entire span was 14', I would probably skip a center stud altogether. 16' I would put at least one support stud. If you can get away with using one 2x4 for the span (usually up to 16') it would be better than patching it together.

You want to figure out your heights to design the scrog. E.g. My ceilings are 84". My buckets are 16", the lights need 20". So that leaves me 48" to work with...which isn't much. One of the benefits of a scrog is that you get good separation. A plant that normally stretches 32" will probably stretch more like 38" under a scrog (if you do it right). Plus you are hydro, so you have to account for the hydro vigor. I don't know if this is your first hydro run or not, but everyone I know who has switched from soil has a hard time with the first couple runs. They don't realize (neither did I) you have to flip when the plant is much shorter, because it's going to grow much bigger/faster than if it was in soil.

So my scrog is exactly 9" above the plants, & I'm out of room up top now. I'm gonna chop 2" off the scrog the next run. Everyone does it differently, but if you want good production, you want to top the plant until you have 8 tops. You want your scrog holes to be at least 5". If you are putting several plants in each of those trays, you may want to do 6" or 7" holes.

So you top 3x. You train as you go, putting each of the tops in it's own scrog hole. You can keep any growth that isn't a top if it looks strong. Just weave it till it's in it's own section of the scrog. Some people don't do this. They only fill up the scrog with tops. Ime, it can get really crowded in there if you do it that way. Plus, I like the buds I get from strong secondary growth. So if you are going to run only tops, I would def suggest 7" scrog holes.

With my current one, I made the mistake of making it too deep (5'). It's fine to work under, but once everything fills in, I can't get to the other side. So 3' -4' would be better.

Before you flip, get rid of everything that is not going to reach the scrog. Your plants should look like they have no pants on. Pull off all the larfy stuff. Once the plants are 1/2 the way through the stretch, go back under the scrog & again, get rid of anything below the net. In the end, no light is going to get down there anyway. All the growth will just die off, so get rid of leaves, branches, everything.

It will then throw all it has into the stretch, & with an average plant, you will get about 4' of stretch. All perfectly spaced, getting even light (if your light IS even) etc. & aside from the little work you have to do under the net, you don't really go down there much. You work above the net, spacing, training etc. 'Tis the balls. If you have a really tall plant...aside from knowing that you need high ceilings, be aware that hydro + scrog = even taller plants than normal. So, if you are going to try to do hazes, you need a lot of space.

One thing I would advise is whatever system you use to feed, make sure it's not prone to clogging. With your setup, I don't think you will have any issues though.

**Edit, so in the 3rd pic, the tall ones, are all tops. So, you can see how, if you run ONLY tops, it's going to get tight in there, hence needing 6-7" scrog holes. If you run it like I do, some of the non-top growth will not reach as high...& it gives the plants a little more breathing room. Plus, like I said, some of the best buds I get are from those shorter ones. That's why I keep them. Otherwise, I would just straight mainline everything

 

[Junk]

I forgot to mention, part of why my plants are so tall (they are maxed out at the moment) is they way I veg. I let the plants grow really tall, hmm, I'll use made up dimensions just to explain what I mean...

I'll let the plant grow 20" tall, super cropping it along the way. Then I cut the plant to say 7" tall. I'm basically topping it, but very drastically. The part that I cut off, looks like a whole other plant it's so large. The reason I do this is because while the plant was growing that tall, it was building a bigger main (trunk) bigger everything, more roots etc.

Because the plant has been allowed to grow out, I can also do most of my topping all at one time. I cut 13" (remember, made up numbers for illustration) off the top.

When I cut the plant like that, & it has built the large root system, trunk, & pathways, it will throw a ton of energy into the two new mains. & because I have let it grow tall & then cut it short, I can see what the two new mains will be...& I can top those at the same time. I am cutting massive amounts of the plant off. But after this step, give it about a week, & your 4 tops will hit their stride. Then, 7-10 days after, I top all those. Wait for those to hit their stride (I'm training this whole time as well) ....once they are going, I flip.

This way, the plant has built large nutrient pathways & root systems, but I knocked it down to a short plant again. Now, instead of being a tall /\ shape, it's a short, wide , \/ shape, feeding into the scrog. This way, when you flip, the plant can make a lot of new growth & stretch...which is where most of your production comes from.

It adds a couple weeks to your veg time, but it's worth it in my opinion. Those plants in the pic were vegged for almost exactly a month.

One of the benefits of hydro is the vigor. & it's well known that longer veg time = more production. I can't find the page (I have to do some serious bookmark organizing) but I believe 2 extra weeks of veg time equalled 20%-30% more production. What some people choose to do with this is run plants extremely quickly. I've tried it both ways, & in hydro/scrog, you are way better off to do what I described. Don't use the added hydro vigor to flip earlier...use it to trim your plants to produce.

Everyone grows there own way, but I never understood people who will put in work for 10 weeks of flower, plus 4 weeks of veg (which = more than 3 months, more than 1/4 of the year) but not take the time to do a couple simple steps to make the plant produce. It's a 14 week investment (approx) no matter what. If I can double, or even triple the amount of product by doing a couple small things....well, I'm a little befuddled at why everyone doesn't do it.

Most people do...the people I'm talking about are in the minority, but I do see it often. The only reason I can think of, not to bother, is if you are breeding & you just need to run through as many numbers as you can, as quickly as possible. Or if you are doing Autos.

Any other q's op, feel free to hit me up.

 

[sedate]

@Junk

Is that an intercooler i scope on your avatar pic? Is that your car?

I like your posts you remind me of me. Lots and lots and lots of very precise language, judicious bolding and italicizes, even accurate common placement. Rarely is the weed board post so perfectly explained at each stage. I appreciate all the careful thought and judicious language you used in crafting that post. I want you to know that for all folks you carefully explain things to - and have them do the opposite, complain, and re-ask the same questions - I feel your pain.

IN MY OPINION, scrog is the most efficient way.

Yes. You don't really have to qualify this around experienced growers, I just ignore anyone that argues. If you are very concerned about plant numbers, this can change, but otherwise trellis/scrog-style growing is far and away the most efficient way of doing things. Otherwise you multiply something - cost or work or energy use or cleaning or most likely of the above.

PVC is good, but not over any distance more than 6'. Anything more than that, & you will need support "studs." You can look up how to do it. The nice thing about PVC is that generally, if YOU select the parts to build it, you can make them so they fit tight enough...& then the scrog can be broken down when you don't need it

In retrospect, I think it was because I made 6'x6' square. A square PVC design is floppy if you suspend it.

2x4 in my opinion is the best solution for what you are doing. I don't know how much you know about construction, but if you like, I can show/explain it. Unless you are going to be standing on it, you won't need that many support studs for the span. If you aren't going to stand on it, one every 10-12' would be fine. If your entire span was 14', I would probably skip a center stud altogether. 16' I would put at least one support stud. If you can get away with using one 2x4 for the span (usually up to 16') it would be better than patching it together.

Uhm. So none of this is wrong but I think you are working way to hard to build a trellis. If I was not doing larger scale outdoor stuff - I'd never use wood. Like I'd need to expect to never move it around, never need to take it down, never need a different arrangement of plants, and need some elemental (like wind) protection. And even then PVC mostly beats wood on most of those considerations under most realistic circumstances.

So PVC is a lil floppy i guess but what is all this "stud" talk - I snapped in x-beams with T-connectors. Lil floppy if I push or shove on it but once the plants grow into it the things are really quite sturdy. Yield like a champion. Just keep your sides down to 5' or so and use lil "T" connectors. Shorter re-inforced sections are perfectly fine.

And you can snap together 12'x12' frames in minutes. For seriously less than $15 worth of 1/2" PVC at HomeDepot. 10' sections are $1.74 and you can cut in right down in isles with the lil handhelt scissor thing at the end of the isle at most stores. All the 1/2" fittings are >$2.

Takes way longer to run the string taught that it does to snap the thing together.

Here's one of the first ones I did. You can see a bit of bowing on the side once I ran the string taught but the lines were quite stable for plant growth -

So these are 5x3 squares with that center x-beam and extra side beams for lateral support. Like you have to kind of shove it to get it wobble. And once the plants grow in, forget it that fucker ain't moving.

I can't remember what I hit on that but I remember being pretty happy. 10 plants, as I recall.

Here's another small one I did for a side area -

So, you can see how, if you run ONLY tops, it's going to get tight in there, hence needing 6-7" scrog holes.

I've done standard 6" squares (as above) in every trellis I've ever built.

Before you flip, get rid of everything that is not going to reach the scrog. Your plants should look like they have no pants on. Pull off all the larfy stuff. Once the plants are 1/2 the way through the stretch, go back under the scrog & again, get rid of anything below the net. In the end, no light is going to get down there anyway. All the growth will just die off, so get rid of leaves, branches, everything.

All of this is exactly correct. Anyone doing a trellis would be well to follow this advice. I fucked this up a few times when I got busy and got mountains of larf.

 

[Seamaiden]

Yea the aisles are designed to walk up and down. The tables are 3x3. The 20 gal coco pots sit inside of each tray.

Sea maiden what do you mean by cut conduit? Like precut conduit? I can buy conduit but what structure do you make with it?

This is an area of my husband's expertise. We go to Lowe's, he takes me over to the electric supply section. There are these seriously LONG ass metal tubes, they're LONG! He cuts 'em down for me so one end is pointy so I can stick it in the dirt. From there I can attach Hortonova trellis around the poles (the posts are vertical and I wrap the trellis vertically also). I no longer use horizontal levels because it's a BITCH to get the plant out of that. Emphasis on bitch.

If you can make a frame out of the conduit, then you'd just wrap the Hortonova around it and keep your trees supported from the outside. You can do the same thing with pigwire, but it's self-supporting so you'd basically just build a fence around the trees. Don't feed too much through it is my own advice, just use canopy control to make sure it's a neat application you can work around.

 

[Icristal]

Pvc pipe and joints, put together like a frame with holes drilled in it for strings to go through
View attachment 569426

Nice set up, good idea.

By the way,that bug of yours moving, always makes me wipe my screen thinking there a bug on it,,hahahaha

 

[Junk]

Is that an intercooler i scope on your avatar pic?

Yes sir...8" AMS. It's not made for the STI, the intercooler is stock, but we had to fab up all the connections.

Is that your car?

It was...sigh, I loved that car. But sadly, I have a seizure disorder that is hard to control. I've had 4 seizures while driving. If I had a seizure while driving that car, I'm not going to walk away. It's a 9 second car.

but I think you are working way to hard to build a trellis.

I would make it out of PVC if I had a bunch of PVC laying around, but I don't. Plenty of copper & pex lol, but no PVC.

But i could build that frame just as fast as a PVC one. Same tools, plus I have nail guns. But the reason it's wood is just because I had 2x4 laying around, no other reason. For me, it's staying where it is, so the weight doesn't matter. Plus with the width I tried, I knew I was going to need to be able to stand on it. Next run, I'm going to make it 42" or so instead of 60".

So PVC is a lil floppy i guess but what is all this "stud" talk

Whenever I'm involved buddy, there is always whispers of "stud" ;)

No, because in the original post he wanted to make 5'x5's, & I said, with the layout he/she has, I would make several long scrogs. He has room to walk down all the aisles, so just make long thin ones. He said 3'x3' trays. I can see at least 6 of them, which = 18 ft. They don't actually look square, but I'm assuming he is accounting for the space in between. No PVC (single or two 9'ers) is going to span 18' without some intermittent T fittings to accommodate PVC "studs." 6' starts to get floppy, 18' will droop like an elderly testicle (how's that for an image lol) This is the best way to explain what I mean...

I don't know how much the OP knows about construction. So if he followed my advice & just made several long PVC frames, & if is 16' - 18' or so, he will need support studs. If his top rail is like the picture above (blue arrow) he is going to need support studs below it (yellow arrows). A few simple T fittings on the bottom & top rail & it will be nice & sturdy. That's all. Unless you plan on standing on it, a 2x4 will span a much larger length.

If he is going to keep it at 5' he wouldn't need those.

Shorter re-inforced sections are perfectly fine.

Agreed. I meant if the span is large. But I prefer a single unit. E.g. Mine is 5'x10'. So I could have just made two 5'x5's, but then I have two pieces of structure running right down the middle of the scrog. That's prime real estate. Even if it's only blocking 3" x 60", that's just about 1.3 ft2 of prime real estate. If I can help it, I'm not going to lose 180", right in the middle of the space. It's not the end of the world, but it's less than ideal.

And you can snap together 12'x12' frames in minutes.

Construction speed would be a wash. In my case, anyway, if you were using those ratchet cutters, tapping the top rail, putting all the screws in it, tying the string etc. It's a plain table design on a level surface. I just cut all all the pieces, I have a nail gun, then just staple the trellis on (advantage to wood). It's just what you are used to, or setup to work with. If you don't have construction equipment, PVC is cheaper, lighter, simpler. @sedate I have no problem with PVC. I think PVC is the better option, it's just not what I had laying around. The little bit I did have, I ended up using to plumb the feed lines.

For seriously less than $15 worth of 1/2" PVC at HomeDepot. 10' sections are $1.74 and you can cut in right down in isles with the lil handhelt scissor thing at the end of the isle at most stores. All the 1/2" fittings are >$2.

OP, this is pretty much correct^^. Including the corner pieces etc, you should be well under $50 per structure. I'm not sure where you got an estimate for $5k for parts. Maybe it's a typo? But that is a lot of friggin PVC dude lol. You can use this to give you an idea on price
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Pipes-Fittings-PVC-Pipe-Fittings/N-5yc1vZbuf5
If you have a chop saw it will save you a lot of time/aggravation over the ratchet cutters.

Here's one of the first ones I did. You can see a bit of bowing on the side once I ran the string taught but the lines were quite stable for plant growth -

That design is more than stable enough for it's purpose there. But if he is going to be making a longer one, it's going to need to be designed a little bit different. The length of it would just need several T fittings to put in some PVC studs like the picture I put up.

Nice job on those brother. Super clean looking.

OP, once you build it, & I kind of described how you train for it, you should have many of these...which is where most of your production will come from. I can't even fit the whole length in the picture. I showed you above what they looked like before I flipped. But because of vegging & topping the way I do, once you get above the scrog, it looks more like a sog grow. These stalks like you see below, are about 36" long, & there are couple hundred of them. That's bascially the outcome you are shooting for. What you see below, in the end, will be all bud. It makes trimming much easier as well, as you have fewer "small bud" branches to deal with.

This is day 28

 

[Junk]

This is an area of my husband's expertise. We go to Lowe's, he takes me over to the electric supply section.

Sounds naughty...

There are these seriously LONG ass metal tubes, they're LONG!

Not what I was expecting to follow the first line, but I'm with you...

He cuts 'em down for me so one end is pointy so I can stick it in the dirt.

Gotcha...

From there I can attach Hortonova trellis around the poles (the posts are vertical and I wrap the trellis vertically also).

I understand what you are saying, but I'm starting to lose the imagery...

If you can make a frame out of the conduit, then you'd just wrap the Hortonova around it and keep your trees supported from the outside.

Here is where I get lost. I think I understand what you are saying...you are talking more about a tomato cage type design no?

So are you saying you wrap every plant? Or every row of plants? I guess where I get lost is, if you are doing what I'm picturing you doing...why not just use a tomato cage?

& with pig wire...are you bending it & wrapping it around each tree? Hog wire doesn't bend easily...

I no longer use horizontal levels because it's a BITCH to get the plant out of that.

I don't use the pre-fab netting for that reason. I do it myself with individual nylon strings stapled to the frame. So when cut time comes, I cut the string at both ends, & pull it out...so when that is done, the plants are free to be cut just like normal. With the premade, I have the same problem as you. The plants grow into the trellis material, & all the squares are joined at each corner, so it's a pita to get it out. With nylon string, maybe I've just been lucky, but I can usually cut one end, & pull it through.

 

[Junk]

If they are in a line you wouldn't need elbows on every tub, you could do a really long one with just a few elbows

I wish I saw this before...thank you 3N, you summed it up perfectly.

That is why I was talking about support studs. Just make it one length, one large, rectangular shaped "cube." That way, you only need 8 - 3 way elbows (per structure) which are $2 each. Instead, you use T fittings on the top rail, & bottom, to make "PVC studs" along the length. Sturdier design, & a single unit per row.

 

[Seamaiden]

Hmm... why not use a tomato cage? First, they're fuckin' expensive. Second, if you're going for actual trees a tomato cage ain't gonna cut it, they're just not made large enough.

Here, for visuals. This is my second raised bed. Since we got to plan ahead after having a few years experience, Dave went ahead and sunk some conduit into the cinder block retaining wall, so I permanently have vertical supports on the backside of the bed. The way I do it isn't necessarily the prettiest, or even the best, but it's the best for me because come harvest time cutting every branch out of a horizontal support makes me want to suck a pistol. I want to be able to make no more than three cuts per plant and bring as whole a plant as possible into the drying and curing area. I know others who very meticulously cut certain length branch by certain length branch and hang them again very meticulously, so that may float many boats as well. Mine is not so floated unless I have lots and lots of help like they do. :)

Ok, vizhu-uhlz! You should be able to see how we've got the conduit as vertical supports (think about how you might frame out a house), then Hortonova is stretched as tightly as possible around that, creating a basket of sorts.

I don't use the pre-fab netting for that reason. I do it myself with individual nylon strings stapled to the frame. So when cut time comes, I cut the string at both ends, & pull it out...so when that is done, the plants are free to be cut just like normal. With the premade, I have the same problem as you. The plants grow into the trellis material, & all the squares are joined at each corner, so it's a pita to get it out. With nylon string, maybe I've just been lucky, but I can usually cut one end, & pull it through.

Yeah... I am just *not* going to spend time doing something like that. I'm just not.

 

[Junk]

Hmm... why not use a tomato cage? First, they're fuckin' expensive. Second, if you're going for actual trees a tomato cage ain't gonna cut it, they're just not made large enough.

Here, for visuals. This is my second raised bed. Since we got to plan ahead after having a few years experience
, Dave went ahead and sunk some conduit into the cinder block retaining wall, so I permanently have vertical supports on the backside of the bed. The way I do it isn't necessarily the prettiest, or even the best, but it's the best for me because come harvest time cutting every branch out of a horizontal support makes me want to suck a pistol. I want to be able to make no more than three cuts per plant and bring as whole a plant as possible into the drying and curing area. I know others who very meticulously cut certain length branch by certain length branch and hang them again very meticulously, so that may float many boats as well. Mine is not so floated unless I have lots and lots of help like they do. :)

Ok, vizhu-uhlz! You should be able to see how we've got the conduit as vertical supports (think about how you might frame out a house), then Hortonova is stretched as tightly as possible around that, creating a basket of sorts.

View attachment 569518


Yeah... I am just *not* going to spend time doing something like that. I'm just not.

I see what you mean now...I didn't realize you meant "trees" literally lol, those are massive. Looks like almost 6'.

Hmm... why not use a tomato cage? First, they're fuckin' expensive.

That's discouraging. I haven't bought a tomato cage in about 15 years, but this last summer I said to my wife, "These things are done." Can hardly stick them in the ground anymore they are so bent, unbent, re-bent, unbent etc. Most of them are super rusty. I'm going to need at least a dozen new ones, & I think the last time I bough them they were like $2 each for the super tall ones.

**Edit, but as you pointed out, they don't make them that tall.

 

[3N1GM4]

I saw a rig on a street light off of the freeway that gave me an idea. The street light bulbs that must be ten stories in the air are on a cable and pulley system. When the lights burn out they lower them down the pole to change them.

My problem with Scrog is that I would like to use it to Supercrop but there is no way to accurately gauge how much the stretch will be so the height is not always optimal for supercropping and having it rest on the top of the scrog.

When I get into my new place I am going to try building an adjustable height scrog out of pvc. That way I can adjust the height two weeks into the stretch and rest the supercropped stems on the scrog.