Malformed Leaves, Twisting, Blistering, Shredding

[philbu]

Hi there,

I have an issue with leaf malformation. Leaves will twist laterally, blister, become leathery, shrink and even start to shred. They may appear on one entire limb out of twelve on a plant. Or their appearance seems random, part of a branch here or there, or even just at one node.

Plants are Black Cherry Soda (or perhaps one of the known crosses) from clone, about 6 weeks into flower with probably at least 3 more to go. Lollipopped, 30 to 36” tall. Overall, plants look fine enough, good green color, stacking nicely.

Medium is roughly Compost 30%, Promix 20%, Earthworm castings 20%, perlite 30%. pH of mix was neutral. 7 gal containers.

I have a 100x magnifier. There are no bugs. No spider, broad or russet mites, aphids, etc. Plants get weekly foliar spray of Spinosad per directions to avoid caterpillars experienced last season.

Plants currently receive FloraNova Bloom, a bit of KoolBloom plus silica and microbes, all a little on the lighter side, perhaps. pH generally at 6 and ppms @ 1200.

All plants were flushed 3 weeks ago and again a couple days ago. Plants exhibited these symptoms prior to first flush.

This is a great site, lots of knowledgeable folks, I’d appreciate any input you have.

pics below.

Thanks!

phil

View attachment 530859
View attachment 530868

 

[luvurkle]

Lol I just posted the same problem see my post similar huh

 

[philbu]

see your thread...

 

[luvurkle]

look at this thread couple more down .. Think God For The Infirmary What The Hell Is Going On Now ??

 

[Seamaiden]

Plants currently receive FloraNova Bloom, a bit of KoolBloom plus silica and microbes, all a little on the lighter side, perhaps. pH generally at 6 and ppms @ 1200.

Bring that pH UP. It needs to be closer to 6.8 IMO.

 

[philbu]

Hi, appreciate the reply, Miss S. But, you've got me stumped. All I've ever read or heard for soilless is generally 5.8-6.3. That's worked in previous outdoor runs. Why 6.8?

 

[jumpincactus]

Get that Ph up at least 6.5 to 6.8

 

[philbu]

again, soilless, still stumped...

 

[ShroomKing]

Nice garden....

But ...Soil or soiless. Your pH is off, listen to SeaMaiden and raise pH to 6.8.

Best of luck.
Peace

 

[jumpincactus]

• The correct pH is one of the most important factors to growing healthy, happy, vigorous plants. If you get the pH of your nutrient solution incorrect, your plants will suffer and yields will diminish – sometimes drastically. pH is measured on a scale from 1.0 to 14.0. Pure water has a pH of approximately 7.0 and is considered pH neutral. pH below 7.0 is considered to be acidic and pH higher than 7.0 is considered to be alkaline.
• The pH level of your hydroponic nutrient solution or soil will determine how well your plants are able to absorb nutrients. If the pH level is out of the proper range, the growth rate of your plants will slow down or stop and nutrient deficiencies will often occur. There are several means of checking the pH level of your hydroponic or soil garden.
• pH Meter: used to measure the pH of water, hydroponic nutrient solution, hydroponic media, and soil. pH Test Kit: used to measure the pH of liquids like water or hydroponic nutrient solution. Soil pH Meter: used to measure the pH of soil. Soil Test Kit: used to measure the pH, nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium levels of soil. There are also soil pH test kits available that just measure the pH level of soil. The correct pH range when growing in a hydroponic system using inert mediums, therefore - mediums with no nutritional value (perlite, coco coir, expanded clay, rockwool, vermiculite, etc) or no medium at all (aeroponics, deep water culture, NFT etc) is 5.5 to 6.3. Therefore, you would set your pH to approximately 5.5 when mixing fresh nutrient solution and allow it to ‘float up’ to no higher than approximately 6.3 before re-adjusting. The correct pH range when growing in soil or soilless mediums (dirt, sunshine mix, promix etc) is 5.9 to 6.5. Again, set the pH to approximately 5.9 when mixing fresh nutrient solution and allow it to ‘float up’ to no higher than 6.5 before re-adjusting. Remember to adjust the pH of your nutrient solution AFTER you have added all additives and nutrients etc to the mix. Typically, the pH of your final nutrient solution will slowly rise as the plants deplete the chemicals within it. Again, there are many varying factors as to what the perfect pH is – plant strain, grow system, medium etc. If your pH shifts drastically, then this is usually a sign that your plants are under stress of some sort (root rot, heat stress, insect attack etc) and immediate investigation is advisable.

Hope this helps.

 

[philbu]

Yes, always use good, cross-referenced, ph pen, also periodically use the soil testing kit, the mix's pH is 7, and to refresh my memory with my excel sheet, the nuted water has been 6.3. According to the dutchmaster site you kindly offered, correct range is 5.9 to 6.5. Again, seems I'm in range and I would def consider raising pH above what's recommended if I had a clearer understanding as to why.

Thanks!

 

[ShroomKing]

Yes, always use good, cross-referenced, ph pen, also periodically use the soil testing kit, the mix's pH is 7, and to refresh my memory with my excel sheet, the nuted water has been 6.3. According to the dutchmaster site you kindly offered, correct range is 5.9 to 6.5. Again, seems I'm in range and I would def consider raising pH above what's recommended if I had a clearer understanding as to why.

Thanks!

Why?
I will help you understand why.
1st reason why...3 decent growers here have recommended that you raise pH. You asked, we answered with detail, and you resolve your pH is fine. We like to help, but we don't want to give detailed lessons for every question. The information is already here in the forums.

PH in soil , or soiless, is not a constant.
The addition of water and nutrients, and the cycle of wetness to dryness will cause the pH to raise and lower in what we will call the soils "pH range" if your "base pH" is too high or too low the cycle of "pH range" will venture into a pH that locks out certain nutrients. Thus you get twisted , krinkly leaves. Don't believe every label you read, company's will say anything to sell a product, by the way.


Best ofluck.
Peace

 

[luvurkle]

I bought this cheap ph tester it keeps coming up 7.0 unless I stick it in salt or something like that .. I mean the dirt in my yard shouldn't be 7.0 same as my fox farm dirt and every potted plant I could find to stab in the dirt and over and over 7.0 am I doing it wrong ? Friend gave it to me so no book with it .. this is a rod you just stick in the dirt with dig readout orange top is this just a junk one?

 

[ShroomKing]

I bought this cheap ph tester it keeps coming up 7.0 unless I stick it in salt or something like that .. I mean the dirt in my yard shouldn't be 7.0 same as my fox farm dirt and every potted plant I could find to stab in the dirt and over and over 7.0 am I doing it wrong ? Friend gave it to me so no book with it .. this is a rod you just stick in the dirt with dig readout orange top is this just a junk one?

Add 2 Tablespoons of dolomite lime per gallon of soil or soiless mix as a pH buffering agent. Then get some pH up and some pH down and a simple pH drops tester kit. Then throw the pH pen away.

 

[philbu]

My apology for asking for something more specific. If I'd resolved that pH was fine, and decided no one here knew what they were talking about, I wouldn't have asked for clarification. I have read many threads on a number of forums, as well as articles, looked at pictures, all to find a decent lead to the right information. In that course, I've seen all kinds of suggestions regarding the issue, from broad mites to TMV to confused hormones to a genetic tendency of certain crosses. Not asking for a "lesson", just enough information to ease my mind. This is the first time I've seen pH mentioned as a possible cause and, since this is a platform for information, took the opportunity to get a better understanding. That is the purpose of forums, yes?

thnx for the info : )

 

[ShroomKing]

I think that your pH is off from nutrient/salt buildup. I see damage on the leaves that , to me , is indicative of root damage.
Root damage that can occur in the presence of major salt build up.
It could also be from soil pests , but since you said problem adjusted after flushing a few weeks ago, I'm leaning toward pH, ie salt build up.
Salt build up will cause a low pH,and as the soil becomes dry it goes even lower.

 

[philbu]

Yes, I understand the salt build-up/pH angle. I flushed at 10 days into flowering and again around Day 30. 15 gal straight water per 5 gal pot. The first flush was performed because of that noticeable twisting. I hoped it was wind burn, another possible cause. But, didn't want to leave it to chance, so flushed. The issue seemed to progress. At this point, I may not be able to tell if the second flush is making any improvement. Damage is damage. Took soil samples last week from 4 out of 25 pots, from 6 inches deep, between waterings, and soil sussed out to 7.0. I have seen here, in another thread, someone who had an issue similar to mine, given a recommendation to lower his pH. Now, how my 7.0 soil relates to a regular 6.3 feeding is above my current pay grade, but I will not ask here, I do know how to research.

thanks for the shout-back : )

 

[ShroomKing]

Yes, I understand the salt build-up/pH angle. I flushed at 10 days into flowering and again around Day 30. 15 gal straight water per 5 gal pot. The first flush was performed because of that noticeable twisting. I hoped it was wind burn, another possible cause. But, didn't want to leave it to chance, so flushed. The issue seemed to progress. At this point, I may not be able to tell if the second flush is making any improvement. Damage is damage. Took soil samples last week from 4 out of 25 pots, from 6 inches deep, between waterings, and soil sussed out to 7.0. I have seen here, in another thread, someone who had an issue similar to mine, given a recommendation to lower his pH. Now, how my 7.0 soil relates to a regular 6.3 feeding is above my current pay grade, but I will not ask here, I do know how to research.

thanks for the shout-back : )

You said your soil was pH 7. How do you know? If your pH pen is broke, your not using it properly, or is not calibrated, your chasing ghosts. So how can you even know your feeding ph is 6.3? Silica additives raise pH big time.

Those garden or aquarium store ph test kits with the drops are worth the $15.
I get your subtle attitude about my statements in an earlier post. It wasn't to be harsh. It was to help you help us , help you. We want to help. There is a template in forums for plant infirmary help as well. And untill you know your measurements are correct it's hard to say what's going on.

Best of luck.
Peace

 

[philbu]

You might be confusing me with another poster, luvurkle. My ph pen isn't broken and I do mention in my previous post how I arrived at the pH of both soil and feed. Right, Silica, it plays poorly with nute uptake and pH. I treat it as a third "part", it goes into straight water all by itself.
And yes, my perception was that I should accept others' suggestions at face value and not ask for more information. This does not advance a discussion that is useful to myself or anyone else who may have a similar issue. Designations like Well-Known Farmer or New Farmer should be taken with a grain of salt. I've done 8 grows, both indoor and out, reached the gram/watt goal and am now trying to dial in the sun grow, because I don't know everything. But, I ain't stoopid. : ) I was in online marketing for 15 years and built and directed several BB/forum systems for large and small companies and the number one objective is to provide helpful info to members and not discourage them.
I've lurked in all the major grow forums for 3 or 4 years. I like Seamaiden. I expressly asked this question at THC rather than the others largely because I've seen how helpful she's been. And she doesn't even have to participate in any of my threads, it is how well she represents THC that brings me here.
And look, SK, I'm over it, everyone's got their style, I understand now you meant well and kudos for coming back to me about the salts and root damage. a-ok, please? : )

 

[Seamaiden]

Hi, appreciate the reply, Miss S. But, you've got me stumped. All I've ever read or heard for soilless is generally 5.8-6.3. That's worked in previous outdoor runs. Why 6.8?

Your mix reads a lot like soil to me, the plants are expressing signs of pH imbalance, and it probably won't hurt at this point to allow it to range higher. Or... possibly lower..? Hmm...

Yes, always use good, cross-referenced, ph pen, also periodically use the soil testing kit, the mix's pH is 7, and to refresh my memory with my excel sheet, the nuted water has been 6.3. According to the dutchmaster site you kindly offered, correct range is 5.9 to 6.5. Again, seems I'm in range and I would def consider raising pH above what's recommended if I had a clearer understanding as to why.

Thanks!

Totally understood! Basically right now I'm going as much off the plant as I am off your mix. IIRC, it's mostly compost and worm castings (lemme scroll back up)...

Medium is roughly Compost 30%, Promix 20%, Earthworm castings 20%, perlite 30%. pH of mix was neutral. 7 gal containers.

Ok, I see what you mean, due to the ProMix being in there. The perlite is inert, and if this were a pure perlite grow I'd be suggesting dropping the pH based on my experience with that. ProMix, even though I've got a bale, is something I haven't yet grown with. Still though, I think if you let it range up you might observe some positive changes. Then again, perhaps ranging it down might be the answer. But basically what I'm saying is that since you're stating you don't observe any pests, my next best guess here is pH. If the medium pH actually came out as a 7, then that's too high, it needs to be lower.

Anyway, like I said, due to the amount of compost and castings your mix reads almost like a soil to me, it's only lacking a bit of additional minerals to make it near soil.

How did you test the pH of the medium originally? You mentioned you're using a good, properly calibrated meter (see below), so I'm curious about how you tested and whether or not it was pegged at neutral. I'm also curious about your source water. If you posted it up, I apologize, I'm rather ADHD and tend to do several things at once.

I bought this cheap ph tester it keeps coming up 7.0 unless I stick it in salt or something like that .. I mean the dirt in my yard shouldn't be 7.0 same as my fox farm dirt and every potted plant I could find to stab in the dirt and over and over 7.0 am I doing it wrong ? Friend gave it to me so no book with it .. this is a rod you just stick in the dirt with dig readout orange top is this just a junk one?

I hate those things, they're absolutely inaccurate. Slurry test using 0EC water gives me better results (using a meter, can be more difficult using colorimetric drops).