Metal Halide Vs. High-pressure Sodium: An Age-old Question For Cannabis Growers

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jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Here is a article on the much debated MH or HPS for veg.

Take what you want and leave the rest.

By Greg James

While the technology behind indoor plant lighting has evolved rapidly, one thing has stayed fairly constant: Most growers still prefer to use high-intensity discharge lights in their grow rooms.

The HID lights that are most frequently used in growing plants indoors and in greenhouses are metal halides and high-pressure sodium (HPS). The reason both are commonly found in grow rooms – especially marijuana grow rooms – is because there has been a long-standing belief that metal halides are best for the early vegetative stages of growth, and HPS are more effective for flowering. So is there any truth to this?

Will metal halides lead to bigger, bushier, more robust plants, and are HPS bulbs the right way to go for flowering and bigger buds?

To get the answer, I did some research and decided the best place to find information on the efficacy of different types of supplemental lighting would be university studies.

Several major universities have done extensive research on plants grown indoors and in greenhouses. Utah State University and Michigan State University both have a wealth of information and studies on HID lights.

The university studies reveal there is no evidence to support the commonly-held belief that the extra blue light from a metal halide is best for vegetative growth. However, HPS is considerably more efficient for photosynthetic radiation (PAR) than metal halides.

And, careful university research has shown that the amount of light plants receive affects growth more than anything else.



At Utah State University, Professor Bruce Bugbee recently published a paper on the subject, and his research on a variety of lights and manufacturers demonstrates that (A) HPS puts out considerably more photons per watt of input power than metal halides, and (B) that there is no evidence to support the assertion that increased blue in a metal halide leads to more vegetative growth than HPS.

When I asked Professor Bugbee if the increased blue spectrum in metal halides led to bigger plants in the early grow stages, his answer was straightforward: “There is no theoretical or empirical evidence to support that claim. The apparent MH effect is likely caused by the amount of light, rather than the color of light.”

This latter point is important because so many in the marijuana industry buy metal halides for early stage “veg” growth, and switch to HPS for bud. However, if you trust the validity of carefully conducted, unbiased university studies using accepted scientific methods, then purchasing metal halides for “veg” may be a waste of money, and could lead to decreased yields.

Some points to ponder from my discussions with two university professors (Professor Bugbee at Utah State and Erik Runkle at Michigan State) who have studied horticulture and supplemental lighting for many years:

• HPS is about twice as electrically efficient as metal halide.

• Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) is what really matters to plant growth, and delivery of usable PAR is better with HPS than metal halide.

• The enhanced blue in metal halide does not lead to increased plant growth compared to HPS in the “veg” stage.

• Metal halides deliver, on average, about 80,000-110,000 lumens per standard 1,000-watt bulb. For the same wattage, HPS bulbs delivers about 130,000-155,000 lumens. This increased light output far outweighs other considerations when trying to maximize plant growth indoors under electric light.

http://www.marijuanaventure.com/met...ure-sodium-age-old-question-cannabis-growers/
 
motherlode

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This latter point is important because so many in the marijuana industry buy metal halides for early stage “veg” growth, and switch to HPS for bud. However, if you trust the validity of carefully conducted, unbiased university studies using accepted scientific methods, then purchasing metal halides for “veg” may be a waste of money, and could lead to decreased yields.

it is not about MORE growth - it is about tighter structure and closer node spacing - not sure how its a waste of money - you have to have a bulb in the ballast and they only have so many usable hours - and its not like a mh cost more than a hps - yes everyone knows that tighter structure and closer node spacing leads to lower yields - lmao


• Metal halides deliver, on average, about 80,000-110,000 lumens per standard 1,000-watt bulb. For the same wattage, HPS bulbs delivers about 130,000-155,000 lumens. This increased light output far outweighs other considerations when trying to maximize plant growth indoors under electric light.

if all you care about is quantity
 
fishwhistle

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Say what you will but Dr Bruce.Bugbee at utah state university is one of the leading lighting tech guys in the US right now.His research into different types of lighting and how they pertain to growing plants is groundbreaking,check him out.
http://cpl.usu.edu/htm/about-us/directory/memberID=5316
Hes really doing alot of cutting edge stuff including working with the 315 CMH among other things.
 
MGRox

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Both what was stated in the OP and Motherlode (ShroomKing) are correct and valid.

The remarks in the OP are focused entirely on "Daily integrated photosynthetic photon flux" and is correct.
Motherlode is talking more about "spectral quality" and its' affect on growth and it is also correct.

xD Fishwhistle I recently posted a little paper from him in another thread. Also, it may be good to quote a section of that here; to help validate both points by the same said author.
Differences in radiation quality from the six most common electric lamps have little effect on photosynthetic rate. Radiation quality primarily alters growth because of changes in branching or internode elongation, which change radiation absorption. Growth and yield in wheat appear to be insensitive to radiation quality. Growth and yield in soybeans can be slightly increased under high pressure sodium lamps compared to metal halide lamps, in spite of greatly reduced chlorophyll concentrations under HPS lamps. Daily integrated photosynthetic photon flux (mol m-2 d-1) most directly determines leaf anatomy and growth

hope this helps
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Great article.
but,....Vegging under hps makes plants stretchy as hell.
I personally agree with @ShroomKing We all know HPS is in the far red spectrum which signals autumn/fall to the plant along with photoperiod. I think it is counter productive to use a far red spectrum when vegging a plant as the autumn signal will and does cause the plant to stretch which leads to longer node distance.
Tighter nodes more bud sites. @fishwhistle is correct this dude in Utah is serious about his lighting research.
 
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jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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I personally have always used MH for veg/HPS for 12/12. I actually keep running the MH for 1-2 weeks into 12/12 to reduce the initial stretch before swapping bulbs out. This method along with temp differential control, training/pruning works good even on the lankiest of girls. IMHE I havent found a gal I couldnt train yet. LOL yea right!!!!
 
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jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Say what you will but Dr Bruce.Bugbee at utah state university is one of the leading lighting tech guys in the US right now.His research into different types of lighting and how they pertain to growing plants is groundbreaking,check him out.
http://cpl.usu.edu/htm/about-us/directory/memberID=5316
Hes really doing alot of cutting edge stuff including working with the 315 CMH among other things.
Thanks for the link @fishwhistle
 
PLOOKERKING

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Well when i started with hid lighting in 2006 i bought sun systems econo grow mh and hps systems( fucken nearly broke me too back then it was really pricey) then bought t-5s for my babies. They work fine. In fact i STILL use them today. Im sure there are better ways than what i do. Ive smoked for 25 years and the cannabis the lights produce is fine. They aint broke.....i aint fixin em.
E
 
PLOOKERKING

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I personally have always used MH for veg/HPS for 12/12. I actually keep running the MH for 1-2 weeks into 12/12 to reduce the initial stretch before swapping bulbs out. This method along with temp differential control, training/pruning works good even on the lankiest of girls. IMHE I havent found a gal I couldnt train yet. LOL yea right!!!![/QUOTE

Trial and error troubleshoot even the worst of problems
 
Joe Fresh

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personally, i am not a fan of MH....i run 2 1000w mh for veg on my moms and babies...they seem to grow soo slow, and the leaves never get big, just a medium size at most...stems seem weak....just seems like the plants not taking up nutes properly and is growing poorly....if i take these same plants and put them under hps, 2 days later i see vigorous plant growth, like i just fed them for the first time ever lol...even leaf color is affected by the light switch, under MH they stay dark green, but about 3-4 days after they ar in hps they are vibrant green, lush green...i just dont get it(and yes i take the plants out the light into flourescent lighting to look at them)

i am a big HPS fan for full grow from mother-clone-veg-flower....even though right now i just happen to have MH for veg, i prefer hps

edit: i think one thing we are maybe forgetting here....there is far red spectrum hps....but full spectrum hps gives a full spectrum, just more red ...when compared to a normal hps light that is not full spectum
 
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Joe Fresh

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again dr bugbee is missing the point re: veg - it is not about faster/bigger

you want to minimize the stretch during this stage and maximize the number of bud sites
though this is the practice 90% of growers use.....i would like to differ...

i lolipop the shit out my plants, so having them grow slower and with more budsites along the branches is pointless as i will be removing them before flower...in fact, when growing horizontally with lolipopping and trellis, it pays to have plants grow faster so you can continuously top, bend, fim or whatever you want, because the faster the plant regenerates its sself, the faster you can do this again.....this will give you more budding sites, at a faster rate, that get "top light" and not lower light
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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personally, i am not a fan of MH....i run 2 1000w mh for veg on my moms and babies...they seem to grow soo slow, and the leaves never get big, just a medium size at most...stems seem weak....just seems like the plants not taking up nutes properly and is growing poorly....if i take these same plants and put them under hps, 2 days later i see vigorous plant growth, like i just fed them for the first time ever lol...even leaf color is affected by the light switch, under MH they stay dark green, but about 3-4 days after they ar in hps they are vibrant green, lush green...i just dont get it(and yes i take the plants out the light into flourescent lighting to look at them)

i am a big HPS fan for full grow from mother-clone-veg-flower....even though right now i just happen to have MH for veg, i prefer hps

edit: i think one thing we are maybe forgetting here....there is far red spectrum hps....but full spectrum hps gives a full spectrum, just more red than others...when compared to a normal hps light that is not full spectum
@Joe Fresh I would definitely question the genetics of what you are growing if you aren't finding healthy vigorous growth under 2000w of MH. Weak spindly growth under that lighting would have me questioning the genetics of the strain running..... Not bashing, just sayn. plants not taking up nutes would be a Ph issue not a lighting issue.
 
Joe Fresh

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@Joe Fresh I would definitely question the genetics of what you are growing if you aren't finding healthy vigorous growth under 2000w of MH. Weak spindly growth under that lighting would have me questioning the genetics of the strain running..... Not bashing, just sayn. plants not taking up nutes would be a Ph issue not a lighting issue.
i have no issues with the genetics, in fact, my deezyD is the best i have ever had in my life...but i find this with all my genetics...not just one...i got about 8 going in veg right now...this is something i notice even with my mothers....
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Interesting. Not sure what to say to that. I am not familiar with the mentioned strain. Mhhhhhhh

Are you seeing this lack of vigor with seeds, or cuts? How old are the Moms you are cutting from ?
 
fishwhistle

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There is no 1 right way,im surprised how defensive everyone gets when someone chooses something different than themselves,how do you ever move forward?
My point was simply do not dismiss bruce bugbee,The guy is the foremost authority right now with plants and lighting in the US,im reading a paper he wrote on ethylene right now.I know his research is not MJ specific but if you use your noggin you can apply it to what we do.After 35 years of growing(yes im over the hill,lol)the 1 thing i know for sure is that i know very little.
Hey MGrox i had to look up what xD means,lol.
 

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