Metal Halide Vs. High-pressure Sodium: An Age-old Question For Cannabis Growers

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Joe Fresh

Joe Fresh

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Interesting. Not sure what to say to that. I am not familiar with the mentioned strain. Mhhhhhhh

Are you seeing this lack of vigor with seeds, or cuts? How old are the Moms you are cutting from ?
i have about 200 cuts, 25 seeds, and 4 moms right now...all show the same....i been growing for about 18 years...this is not the firts time i have noticed this...i know it to be the lighting effects on my plants, its the only variable that is different
 
MGRox

MGRox

597
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+1 @fishwhistle Socrates - "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing"

I feel here, that @Joe Fresh is bringing up an ancillary, but yet still valid point.

When doing various pruning or cropping techniques; you are altering (what would otherwise be) natural localization of either starches / sugars (ex. LST) or PGR's (ex. Pinching apical). Depending on the magnitude of these copping techniques used (and thus internal alterations), it is very possible that a person could find certain advantages here to encouraging some stretch.

So, there have been 3 perspectives that are all valid.
@jumpincactus - relating to intensity (total usable photon flux over X time)
@motherlode - relating to color (proportion of photon flux of differing wavelengths)
@Joe Fresh - relating to cropping vs color (proportion of photon flux of differing wavelengths in relation to cropping response)

I suppose since we're on this subject of colors; there is a paper that may be of interest to some.
LINK
It covers all the known photoreceptors and their responses to various light conditions (pulsed, high, low, white, far red, red:far red etc).
Here shows the spectra for activation / inactivation of the photoreceptors.
Photoreceptor spectrum

Here's the full list of all known responses from light (last picture has the "key" for "total fluence")
Photoreceptor response 1 Photoreceptor response 2 Photoreceptor response 3 Photoreceptor response 4 Photoreceptor response 5 Photoreceptor response 6

one other paper that fits here somewhat (also referred to the above paper), mainly focuses on green signaling and responses from green light in proportion to blue, red and far-red.
LINK

hope the info stuff helps and isn't too far out of place here.
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

Premium Member
Supporter
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+1 @fishwhistle Socrates - "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing"

I feel here, that @Joe Fresh is bringing up an ancillary, but yet still valid point.

When doing various pruning or cropping techniques; you are altering (what would otherwise be) natural localization of either starches / sugars (ex. LST) or PGR's (ex. Pinching apical). Depending on the magnitude of these copping techniques used (and thus internal alterations), it is very possible that a person could find certain advantages here to encouraging some stretch.

So, there have been 3 perspectives that are all valid.
@jumpincactus - relating to intensity (total usable photon flux over X time)
@motherlode - relating to color (proportion of photon flux of differing wavelengths)
@Joe Fresh - relating to cropping vs color (proportion of photon flux of differing wavelengths in relation to cropping response)

I suppose since we're on this subject of colors; there is a paper that may be of interest to some.
LINK
It covers all the known photoreceptors and their responses to various light conditions (pulsed, high, low, white, far red, red:far red etc).
Here shows the spectra for activation / inactivation of the photoreceptors.
View attachment 489761

Here's the full list of all known responses from light (last picture has the "key" for "total fluence")
View attachment 489762 View attachment 489763 View attachment 489764 View attachment 489765 View attachment 489766 View attachment 489767

one other paper that fits here somewhat (also referred to the above paper), mainly focuses on green signaling and responses from green light in proportion to blue, red and far-red.
LINK

hope the info stuff helps and isn't too far out of place here.
Thanks @MGRox Good stuff!!!
 
Herb Forester

Herb Forester

766
143
I don't like the older halides either, they just don't provide ideal health, even the nicer 7500K ones. Especially with such a short spectral lifespan. But I sure wouldn't look to HPS for an improvement there. CMH gives results like the sun.
 
Bones69

Bones69

167
43
I personally have always used MH for veg/HPS for 12/12. I actually keep running the MH for 1-2 weeks into 12/12 to reduce the initial stretch before swapping bulbs out. This method along with temp differential control, training/pruning works good even on the lankiest of girls. IMHE I havent found a gal I couldnt train yet. LOL yea right!!!!
I have to add to this.
This is my first grow I let mh go into first week of 12/12 and yes it does give a tighter structure. You can actually see on all my plants when I switched to hps. I should have kept the mh for another week.
But on the other hand how about dual spectrum bulbs? Is there a difference in the first 2 weeks of 12/12?
Do they keep a tighter structure then hps?
 
Ned Kelly

Ned Kelly

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263
just run both and move forward lol. or better yet throw a couple of small full spec led's in your grow cover all bases!
 
Bones69

Bones69

167
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Yeah but do the dual spectrum reduce the amount of stretching in the first 2 week of 12/12?
Also that is a good piece of info on the dual arc being 600 watt hps and 400 mh. I never knew that and explains why you can't get a 400 watt dual spectrum bulb. They range from 600 to 1000 watts.
 
motherlode

motherlode

@Rolln_J
Supporter
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never used one for all the reasons I stated - lol
 
Joe Fresh

Joe Fresh

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i have no issues with the genetics, in fact, my deezyD is the best i have ever had in my life...but i find this with all my genetics...not just one...i got about 8 going in veg right now...this is something i notice even with my mothers....


actually now that i think about it, last run in one of my 4k rooms, 3 of the lights were hps, and one of them was mh...the corner where was the mh was noticably smaller plants, smaller leaves, and smaller buds, and ultimately yielded less.....this room was grown with those 4 lights from clone to harvest....all plants in the room were treated equal...all were same strain...now i understand mh during flower would make smaller buds, but the leaves from veg to flower were notucabley smaller, like atleast 1 inch smaller....not a small difference, but when the leaves are the plants solar panels i have noticed better yields from plants with large leaves that have thicker stems
 
A

Astro1

1
3
People referencing University studies are missing the whole point of MH vs HPS in a Cannabis Growing scenario. The professor is correct, however the authors assumptions and conclusions of the Professor's findings are flawed on multiple counts.

First and the biggest is assuming that these studies were conducted under a "grow room" scenario.

This study was conducted (as with many other universities) under "supplemental" lighting conditions in greenhouses. NOT Grow Rooms! This is key because the supplemental light is added as an addition to regular sunlight and then the results are measured.

In such a scenario, the sample is reciving natural sunlight for most of the day that is full of blue spectrum light and would naturally benefit most from added red wavelengths output from an HPS bulb. This unfairly disadvantages the MH lamps as the blue spectrum output by the MH is overshadowed by (already present in) natural daytime (blue) sunlight. This is why in numerous greenhouse scenarios, red early AM and late PM light is often supplemented by the HPS yellow/red spectrum bulbs.

In a grow room there is no natural sunlight. All that a grower has is the spectrum output by the bulb. In this case, the spectrum most lacking to the plant is the blue (most beneficial) spectrum as not only is it the spectrum that is most efficiently absorbed by both Chlorophyl types (A & B), but it is also the spectrum that is absorbed by additional Carotenoids. See graphic below. This is why plants grown "exclusively" under appropriate MH light are greener, healthier and stay green longer through the flowering cycle than plants grown under HPS light; as although HPS light is abundant it packs a severely narrow spectrum.

10_09PhotosynthWavelength.jpg



Another key variable not accounted for is the fact that HPS bulbs are for the most part very similar in their spectral output where as there are wide variations in spectrum output by modern MH and HPS to MH conversion bulbs. Ranging anywhere from 4k to 10k depending on application. These often misunderstood variables is what drives hydroponic shops to recommend HPS wishing to satisfy a results (most weight per/watt) hungry cannabis grower without having to go into details about spectral distribution and the benefits of a ballanced spectrum.

Below are spectral distribution graphs of a Ushio HPS to MH conversion bulb and an EyeHortilux Blue MH. Notice how the spectrum peaks match up much closer to the optimal chlorophyl absorption wavelengths on the chart above.


hor-hilux-mhchart.jpg
blue.jpg


And here is an HPS bulb by the same company.

shps.jpg


Another key misunderstood factor is the efficiency of the bulb. The MH bulbs put out lumen in a much better spectrum for a plant, but they also output less of them. The difference is added heat at a given wattage. A grower wishing to use MH light to supply a better spectrum to their plants would have to not only account for the difference in lumen (run more wattage say 750w MH vs 600w HPS) to make up for the lower lumen output, but also exhaust the addition heat generated by the lamps (upwards of 30% more). Most growers don't want to go that extra mile since quantity is often preferred over quality . An HPS light is therefore preferred by most growers since it's simpler to accommodate for it's lower heat output while also getting the benefit of more lumen/watt (but again not in the most ideal spectrum for the plants).

Again in a solely artificially lit environment, to receive the same lumen as an HPS light using a MH bulb, a grower would have to run more wattage and account for more heat, but the plant would benefit from receiving light in the appropriate wavelengths compared to HPS light.

This is why connoisseurs wishing to grow the plant to it's full potential and willing to accommodate the added heat grow under MH and cash croppers use HPS to get the most weight per watt. Interestingly this applies to aquarium grown coral as well.

Then you have the fact that MH light promotes branching and keeps plants compact with shorter node spacing. (provided they are reviewing the same lumen at the canopy)

One should also note, that MH is not the only full spectrum light CMH, Plasma and spectrum tuned LED, are emerging technologies that also output a more full spectrum that need to be considered.

Happy farming!
 
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F

FooDoo

1,278
263
I've been vegging with MH my entire life and flowering with HPS but recently I've been questioning the practice.

Thank you @jumpincactus for posting this thread and studies. Our eyes play tricks on us all the time. Same with our minds, ever heard of the placebo effect?

Everyone claims mh causes tighter nodes.. Has anyone ever tried both methods and actually recorded scientific data by taking measurements of nodes in the same clone? Doubt it.

I will be attempting to veg under hps my next run to test weather they stretch more or not.

If I can save a couple hundred bucks on not having to buy two sets of bulbs and time switching these bulbs after veg, I'm all for it
 
Bowski

Bowski

152
28
It looks like to me that my first grow was done under the gavitas double ended switchable 1000 HPS fixtures I vegged them for 3 weeks under t-5s and then vegged another 2 week under HPS on 600 watts and flipped to 12/12 and 1000 watts. Some of them was put in place at different intervals and by the end you could not get in the 10x13 room at all. It was a nightmare. 17 plants yielded slightly over 6.5 pounds on my first grow not counting the junk buds which I gave away buckets of...lol including the stems of course.
Whats funny is I just bought a 400 watt MH for vegand now I read this. but nothing tried is nothing learned and thats a fact. Exempt this time im growing under 4000 watts of Illumitex LED.
Photo 3 6 Photo 1 5
 
BigBlueBuds

BigBlueBuds

22
13
Astro1

I think you nailed it. Thanks for looking a little closer and sharing it with the rest of us!
 
gardnguyahoy

gardnguyahoy

3,360
263
This thread is fascinating. I cant get enough.

Lets keep this talk going, i veg under a 400w hps and i have some very bushy happy plants due to some super cropping bending, topping, etc.. They bounce back from a beat up state and shoot new nodes and foilage within two three days.

Does hps quick growth make veg for super croppers and trainers of plants for this reason?

Do you think 400w hps instead of 1000w hps balances out that huge node space difference cause my girls are bushy!!

Doea MH really put out a more "even" spectrum and relate to not only more rhobust growth but higher quality.

Does hps really accomidate "quick for girth and weight" growers only interested in gram per watt, and the money flip as opposed to MH purely for quality?(what about us medical patients growing organic meds to treat ourselves instead of popping synthetic pills?)

Does having supplemental MH as well as your main hps lights in your flower room correct this hypothetical possibility?

Anybody actually done the deed trying multiple wattages of hps and mh in veg to get the best results

I want to know, this is insanely valuable information for any up and coming grower, or even a seasoned grower faced with a dissapointing yield each harvest. Lets hear
 
MrBelvedere

MrBelvedere

707
143
People referencing University studies are missing the whole point of MH vs HPS in a Cannabis Growing scenario. The professor is correct, however the authors assumptions and conclusions of the Professor's findings are flawed on multiple counts.

First and the biggest is assuming that these studies were conducted under a "grow room" scenario.

This study was conducted (as with many other universities) under "supplemental" lighting conditions in greenhouses. NOT Grow Rooms! This is key because the supplemental light is added as an addition to regular sunlight and then the results are measured.

In such a scenario, the sample is reciving natural sunlight for most of the day that is full of blue spectrum light and would naturally benefit most from added red wavelengths output from an HPS bulb. This unfairly disadvantages the MH lamps as the blue spectrum output by the MH is overshadowed by (already present in) natural daytime (blue) sunlight. This is why in numerous greenhouse scenarios, red early AM and late PM light is often supplemented by the HPS yellow/red spectrum bulbs.

In a grow room there is no natural sunlight. All that a grower has is the spectrum output by the bulb. In this case, the spectrum most lacking to the plant is the blue (most beneficial) spectrum as not only is it the spectrum that is most efficiently absorbed by both Chlorophyl types (A & B), but it is also the spectrum that is absorbed by additional Carotenoids. See graphic below. This is why plants grown "exclusively" under appropriate MH light are greener, healthier and stay green longer through the flowering cycle than plants grown under HPS light; as although HPS light is abundant it packs a severely narrow spectrum.

10_09PhotosynthWavelength.jpg



Another key variable not accounted for is the fact that HPS bulbs are for the most part very similar in their spectral output where as there are wide variations in spectrum output by modern MH and HPS to MH conversion bulbs. Ranging anywhere from 4k to 10k depending on application. These often misunderstood variables is what drives hydroponic shops to recommend HPS wishing to satisfy a results (most weight per/watt) hungry cannabis grower without having to go into details about spectral distribution and the benefits of a ballanced spectrum.

Below are spectral distribution graphs of a Ushio HPS to MH conversion bulb and an EyeHortilux Blue MH. Notice how the spectrum peaks match up much closer to the optimal chlorophyl absorption wavelengths on the chart above.


hor-hilux-mhchart.jpg
blue.jpg


And here is an HPS bulb by the same company.

shps.jpg


Another key misunderstood factor is the efficiency of the bulb. The MH bulbs put out lumen in a much better spectrum for a plant, but they also output less of them. The difference is added heat at a given wattage. A grower wishing to use MH light to supply a better spectrum to their plants would have to not only account for the difference in lumen (run more wattage say 750w MH vs 600w HPS) to make up for the lower lumen output, but also exhaust the addition heat generated by the lamps (upwards of 30% more). Most growers don't want to go that extra mile since quantity is often preferred over quality . An HPS light is therefore preferred by most growers since it's simpler to accommodate for it's lower heat output while also getting the benefit of more lumen/watt (but again not in the most ideal spectrum for the plants).

Again in a solely artificially lit environment, to receive the same lumen as an HPS light using a MH bulb, a grower would have to run more wattage and account for more heat, but the plant would benefit from receiving light in the appropriate wavelengths compared to HPS light.

This is why connoisseurs wishing to grow the plant to it's full potential and willing to accommodate the added heat grow under MH and cash croppers use HPS to get the most weight per watt. Interestingly this applies to aquarium grown coral as well.

Then you have the fact that MH light promotes branching and keeps plants compact with shorter node spacing. (provided they are reviewing the same lumen at the canopy)

One should also note, that MH is not the only full spectrum light CMH, Plasma and spectrum tuned LED, are emerging technologies that also output a more full spectrum that need to be considered.

Happy farming!


What is the proof that MH provides better quality buds? I don't get that part. :)
 
gardnguyahoy

gardnguyahoy

3,360
263
What is the proof that MH provides better quality buds? I don't get that part. :)

Supposedly the chlorophyll growth reacts to certain wavelengths of light not present in a high pressure sodium

SUPPOSEDLY... (emphasis on supposedly)
Something about absorbing Carotenoids
 
Bones69

Bones69

167
43
Well one thing I did my last grow was when I flipped I continued using mh for the next 2 weeks after the stretch and my nodes were no doubt much tighter then what they would have been had I used the hps for the entire 12/12 cycle.
 
F

FooDoo

1,278
263
Well one thing I did my last grow was when I flipped I continued using mh for the next 2 weeks after the stretch and my nodes were no doubt much tighter then what they would have been had I used the hps for the entire 12/12 cycle.

Prove it. Let's see some measurements
 
Bones69

Bones69

167
43
What is the proof that MH provides better quality buds? I don't get that part. :)
I agree. Not that I have ever used an MH bulb for the whole duration of flower, I was to believe you end up with lighter and fluffy buds as compared to the compact buds you get from an hps.
 
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