Mitt Romney on Medical Marijuana

[ttystikk]

Man , you really don't want to get me started on this one , I could write for hours just on the points you've raised............a quick aside as regards the redistricting in Ohio , you'll find the dirty mitts of none other than Rod Parsley if you manage to trace that one back far enough.

And NO I'll not vote for O'Bummer , nor RipEmOff Romney , and sure as hell not for Faux Libertarian Paul.

As regards O'Bummer and religion , you mean to tell me that you don't find his connection to Wright quite troubling?

They're all worthless , different faces on the same coin of corruption. And frankly I'm not going to get 'looted' by either set of 'em , nor will I fall for their divide and conquer tactics that seek to divide the public along religious , racial and ideological lines.

That's a long list of "wont's" you got there, brother. What's on the WILL list? If you like to complain but not vote, then in my book that makes you part of the problem, not any part of a solution.

I vote- even if I have to hold my nose and choose who I believe to be the lesser of two evils, and then I patiently set out to educate all those who remain uninformed about their choices.

Your turn; not voting is basically removing yourself from the process, so that those who do involve themselves can step all over your rights. I realize that none of the current crop of candidates is very palatable, but look at this way; in the stupid shitstorm of amurrican politics, would anyone who really IS well qualified for the job actually want it? Perhaps that is the first thing that needs changing.

 

[Bluenote]

That's a long list of "wont's" you got there, brother. What's on the WILL list? If you like to complain but not vote, then in my book that makes you part of the problem, not any part of a solution.

I vote- even if I have to hold my nose and choose who I believe to be the lesser of two evils, and then I patiently set out to educate all those who remain uninformed about their choices.

Your turn; not voting is basically removing yourself from the process, so that those who do involve themselves can step all over your rights. I realize that none of the current crop of candidates is very palatable, but look at this way; in the stupid shitstorm of amurrican politics, would anyone who really IS well qualified for the job actually want it? Perhaps that is the first thing that needs changing.

Did I say that I don't/won't vote? Or did I state specific candidates that I won't vote for? Why would you make such an assumption without prior inquiry?

 

[ttystikk]

Did I say that I don't/won't vote? Or did I state specific candidates that I won't vote for? Why would you make such an assumption without prior inquiry?

You said you wouldn't for for Obama, Romney, or Paul. You also said you wanted government to starve. You mentioned you'd like to see the whole thing collapse. Have a look around, buddy- it's in progress even as we speak.

I have seen revolution up close and personal and I'd rather vote.

 

[squiggly]

A little perspective may be in order. I'm likely quite a degree older than you are Squig , I went through all this the first time around. Those of my age *saw* the movement corrupted and run away with , and now folks groomed by the folks who did so are deeply seated within the Halls of Power , for reference look to two of O'Bummers personal friends and advisors , who of course ripped off and ran away with the entire SDS and perverted it ( eventually) into the Weather Underground.

Folks who were bitching about the Establishment in '68 have BECOME The Establishment.

I can definitely pay homage to that.

I'll just come right out and say that I am far and away younger than you if you were aware of bitching in 68. My mother would've been 16 that year. She had me at 34 (I'm pretty sure--I just got off school, fuck math for now).

In that case I'm glad I dialed my shit back--my grandfather would've pimp slapped me for talking to an elder like I was to you earlier. I've been saying "I get this, I get that", but when it comes to something like what you've really described--the truth is that I don't get it.

I want you to see this from my perspective for a minute. I'm 26, that math I'm sure of.

Shit went badly in your generation. I'm asking you to help me keep the same thing from happening to mine. The buck has to stop somewhere. Letting the train run off the tracks isn't the answer.

Something needs to be done differently if we're going to avoid the mistakes of our elders (yours, and mine [your generation]). It's going to mean all of us banding together. I don't think Obama is the answer to this as many did in 2008, and I didn't think it then. I think he'll stem the tide of Mitt motherfucking Romney.

I think in the interim we need to get a third party together--and again I'll reference americanselect.org

^^That is the blueprint^^

Now all we need are people capable of writing and interpreting laws who aren't completely groomed by elitists law school and in cahoots with one another. We need a different class of legislative education to tackle this endemic problem. This really is a problem with the system and not with people in general.

We've created a system where people will always do this--and we've done so inadvertently. We can change the system so that the possibility is not there. This goes back to the mouse and cheese argument I had here (or somewhere)--if I keep putting cheese on the floor and a mouse keeps taking it. Who's fault is it that my cheese keeps getting stolen? Me or the mouse?

If we keep training these people to write/read/interpret law in the same types of institutions--and insert barriers to access for people not groomed in exactly the same way--and then we end up with this clusterfuck generation after generation (despite as you say, people having bitched about it earlier--something I'd claim represents the REALITY of peoples intentions [they are good])--who's fault is it that it keeps happening?

Them for perpetuating it, or us for not paying attention and identifying/solving the problem?

Somethings gotta give, and I don't want it to be the (failing) supports that hold this country up.

It's a time to choose your battles sir, if there's ever one.

If you bitched about the establishment in '68 with those people, then don't you owe it to yourself to make the best decision you can--rather than no decision at all?

I'd almost rather hear you were voting for Mitt.

 

[Bluenote]

You said you wouldn't for for Obama, Romney, or Paul. You also said you wanted government to starve. You mentioned you'd like to see the whole thing collapse. Have a look around, buddy- it's in progress even as we speak.

I have seen revolution up close and personal and I'd rather vote.

I know that it's in progress , that's the point. And yes I'll vote , until the time comes not to.And yes the government should starve of it's own greed........or CHANGE.

 

[squiggly]

I want you to really ask yourself the following:

Are you just a 2012 version of some old dude back in '68 who thought the same thing as you?

I might be just like the yuppies were then or whatever, but what if the problem back then was there were too many guys like you to put a stop to the bullshit. I'd argue that this very well could've been the case then--and that it almost certainly is now.

I'm young, and what the fuck do I know--but I think something different should happen. Obama isn't all the way different--but I think it'd be short sighted not to concede that he's done things no other president before him would've dared do--and he's done almost all of it without congress.

As before with better and worse--its not necessarily different, but its different-er.

I'm asking you to help me help the country take baby steps, not get it all done at once. Obama rather than Romney today, someone else rather than them next. The right decisions can't be to divide ourselves anymore when it comes to questions of core ideology (is Jesus your savior and Lord? No? Then vote for the guy who doesn't care if he is or not.) If we do this we're fucked already--as you say.

I don't want to believe this yet, but it's going to take people like you--not people like me--to make it happen.

 

[Bluenote]

I want you to really ask yourself the following:

Are you just a 2012 version of some old dude back in '68 who thought the same thing as you?

I might be just like the yuppies were then or whatever, but what if the problem back then was there were too many guys like you to put a stop to the bullshit. I'd argue that this very well could've been the case then--and that it almost certainly is now.

I'm young, and what the fuck do I know--but I think something different should happen. Obama isn't all the way different--but I think it'd be short sighted not to concede that he's done things no other president before him would've dared do--and he's done almost all of it without congress.

As before with better and worse--its not necessarily different, but its different-er.

I'm asking you to help me help the country take baby steps, not get it all done at once. Obama rather than Romney today, someone else rather than them next. The right decisions can't be to divide ourselves anymore when it comes to questions of core ideology (is Jesus your savior and Lord? No? Then vote for the guy who doesn't care if he is or not.) If we do this we're fucked already--as you say.

I don't want to believe this yet, but it's going to take people like you--not people like me--to make it happen.

Nope , I can say without doubt that I have little in common with the old crowd you refer to.

Look , I'm highly fatalistic at this point , if you can't stop human greed the exploitation and corruption will continue to run rampant , history proves that Greed in the ultimate addictive drug and virtually unstoppable.

And the system is now geared to produce drones that will march in somnambulent lockstep in accordance with the dictates of the 'powers that be'.

You're currently within the educational system , look around you , analyse what's *not* taught nowadays , what questions can't be asked , what's been rewritten.........ask yourself if much of our " educational system" in this country is not more correctly an eduindoctrinational system geared towards producing the aforementioned drones as opposed to Free Thinkers etc.

Control the flow of information , control the educational system , demonise the different , divide the populace along arbitrary lines and set them against each other , disarm the populace ( for their own good of course....).

Meanwhile our Halls of Power are inhabited by those who have nothing whatsoever in common with the " Common Man " , by those who hide in the highest offices disguised as something that they aren't.

On a more serious note , Batshit paul *IS* correct about one thing though , the stage is set for absolutely *massive* civil unrest , and it's being actively fomented in some quarters. The Inmates have gained thorough control of the Asylum and only the loudest , shrillest and most hyperbolic get heard.

And the system will NOT be reformed because it will get into the pockets of those who actually pull the strings , YOU are sheep to be preyed upon until such time as the sordid parasite finally kills the host. Unless of course you decide not to be " The Sheep" , that's a highly individual decision.

And sorry , but you're in error , decrepit , curmudgeonly old gits such as myself who are still cynically idealistic are NOT what might stand a chance in all of this , it's the generations coming up , as long as they're collectively willing to take nothing for granted and study beyond what the system has thrust down their throats.

You may well live to see the Balkanisation of America.

 

[nebulius]

Was curious about the title of the thread but the OP's youtube video has been deleted. I found this one. No compassion. Wish people had more empathy for one another. Try rolling a few miles in his chair with his pain and medical conditions and legislation of what you can and can't take.You'd think someone who's wife has MS would be more open to alternative (i hate this word it has been around for thousands of yrs.) medicines.

 

[Bluenote]

Compassion? From the former president of Bain Capital? You're kidding , right? His " compassion" will magically appear 'long about the time Bayer , Novartis ,Monsanto et al start donating to his campaign behind the Sativex distribution rights.

 

[squiggly]

I'm gonna take these one at a time because I disagree with some and agree with other things you've said.

Nope , I can say without doubt that I have little in common with the old crowd you refer to.

Look , I'm highly fatalistic at this point , if you can't stop human greed the exploitation and corruption will continue to run rampant , history proves that Greed in the ultimate addictive drug and virtually unstoppable.

Totally true. I don't believe your answer is necessarily the right solution--but I see where you're coming from.

And the system is now geared to produce drones that will march in somnambulent lockstep in accordance with the dictates of the 'powers that be'.

You're currently within the educational system , look around you , analyse what's *not* taught nowadays , what questions can't be asked , what's been rewritten.........ask yourself if much of our " educational system" in this country is not more correctly an eduindoctrinational system geared towards producing the aforementioned drones as opposed to Free Thinkers etc.

I gotta tell ya that from an "inside perspective" I'm allowed to ask whatever the hell questions I want. I realize certain things have definitely been rewritten, I'll go with that (but I'll also point out that Republicans have oft been doing the re-writing).

I really disagree with this "eduindoctrinational" system you've put forward at the very least in academia. Perhaps this is becoming more and more the case in k-12 but I really couldn't tell ya as I spent most of those years selling drugs and ducking the truant officer. Therefore, to my eyes, what you're claiming is plausible on that level (because I can't refute it), but in terms of where I am now--I think it's possible you've been misled. There is a huge amount of questioning, and differing viewpoints, and stuff like that in academia--this type of things is fostered there, and there is no doubt about that to anyone who's experienced it.

Control the flow of information , control the educational system , demonise the different , divide the populace along arbitrary lines and set them against each other , disarm the populace ( for their own good of course....).

Meanwhile our Halls of Power are inhabited by those who have nothing whatsoever in common with the " Common Man " , by those who hide in the highest offices disguised as something that they aren't.

On a more serious note , Batshit paul *IS* correct about one thing though , the stage is set for absolutely *massive* civil unrest , and it's being actively fomented in some quarters. The Inmates have gained thorough control of the Asylum and only the loudest , shrillest and most hyperbolic get heard.

And the system will NOT be reformed because it will get into the pockets of those who actually pull the strings , YOU are sheep to be preyed upon until such time as the sordid parasite finally kills the host. Unless of course you decide not to be " The Sheep" , that's a highly individual decision.

And sorry , but you're in error , decrepit , curmudgeonly old gits such as myself who are still cynically idealistic are NOT what might stand a chance in all of this , it's the generations coming up , as long as they're collectively willing to take nothing for granted and study beyond what the system has thrust down their throats.

You may well live to see the Balkanisation of America.

I think you go into the sheep argument, as most people do, without really backing it up. It's like this wild assumption that for some reason we just let people get away with. I'm not down with that--to me it looks like an overactive imagination trying to explain something complex which they do not like. You don't want to believe that people could be so fucking stupid and ignorant all of their own will--that there must be some conspiracy behind it.

Nope. They just come out of the vaginal canal like that sometimes.

As for curmudgeons like you being necessary to turn the tide--I'm sticking with that. It take unity, not a bunch of cynics here, and a bunch of new generation there and you made this point yourself :

"divide the populace along arbitrary lines and set them against each other"

Again, I'll make the point very clearly that we don't need a conspiracy to do this for us--if you're going to sit there and do it yourself. I don't think there's a way out for you on this one--are you them? If not, why are you playing a role in doing the things that they want you to do? If it is them, how does this make you not a sheep. You say its some type of personal choice, but here seem to betray the suggestion that perhaps you haven't made the choice not to be a sheep yet.

I think that its probably more likely that everything can be explained as the interconnectivity of a vast and complex system of peoples and personalities. People in this system might "seem" like sheep to you, but in reality they've all simply decided to be the way they are. The government hasn't made them that way by adapting the world in one way or another. I'd say it's the other direction, people were first dumb--and then the rest of the amenities of the world situated themselves such that they made the most sense for dumb people. (TV, too many adds, education system, you-name-it).

I also think that's because the grand majority of people are dumb, and willfully ignorant to that fact.

Also, "disarm the populace"? Are you batshit? (no offense, using your word for Paul here) I, personally, own over 30 weapons. You've really gotta be joking on this one--we're moving in the complete opposite direction of this and have been for awhile now.

No one is coming to take your guns.

 

[squiggly]

His " compassion" will magically appear 'long about the time Bayer , Novartis ,Monsanto et al start donating to his campaign behind the Sativex distribution rights.

I'm not directly replying to what you're saying here--I'm inclined to agree with you.

That said, I just watched an absolutely great video detailing some research which has recently been done on something call "optimism bias". The first person I thought of while watching it was you Bluenote--but you're not alone. The more I thought, it reminded me of everybody--and underlined some of what I've been saying about people for a long time now. The problem is that people believe their own opinions are correct and that working together is not the best way to find the correct answer.

I think, repeatedly, this is something which you've hubristicly done (and that I also have probably done during our conversation--but I am unaware of because of my own bias).

That's why the best "truth" is a synthesis of both of our perspectives rather than mine being right or yours being right. Or rather, it's more proper to say that as we increase the population of the discussion--the error in our end result approaches zero (or an exponentially smaller number than you and I alone generate)

Check the video out dude ( http://www.ted.com/talks/tali_sharot_the_optimism_bias.html ), everyone wants shit to be a conspiracy but I argue it's just this really complex system playing out in the backgrounds which is governed by our own brains and we don't even realize it.

Your brain is a finite math problem, so great in its complexity that we'll never derive the formula to explain it--but BE ASSURED, it is a formula playing itself in your head. The brain follows the laws of physics and chemistry just like everything else. Because of this we are all limited, we will all get it wrong. I think we've gotten it the most right as a species (not only a country) when we have banded together and forgotten the self and the ego.

I'd argue that in fact almost all enlightenment has come from a place of selflessness. The real world exists in such a place. [<---IMPORTANT AND ABSTRACT STATEMENT WORTH READING 100 TIMES]

Consider what the outside would look like if you could see UV light (shit would be extra fuzzy), or infared (you'd be mostly blind during a good portion of the day).

News flash--it does look like that. You just can't see it. I think the same exact thing is true when it comes to understanding the complexities of social behavior en masse. Some of the tiny details escape many of us, still others escape all of us, and still others can be clear to half of us and not clear to the other half.

This most closely models the way I want to deal with people (except when I go off the handle as before). Even when I find someone is wrong, I generally do not blame them for this because I know that they do not mean to be (they simply can't detect the UV light).

When I speak of this, I don't mean some underlying conspiracy--I'm talking very precisely about the things which humans predictably do irrationally that we can test quantitatively and qualitatively of which most or all humans are innately unaware. Not paying respect to the absolutely proven and undeniable fact that such constructs do exist in human social psychology is to devote onesself to unending hubris.

It is important to look along this problem rather than straight at it. We need to look at how we cause the problem, why our brains disagree. We can't have our cake and eat it to. I really hope you and everyone will watch the video (bout 17 mins)--the presenter is much more adept at explaining this than I am, this is simply the way that I've seen it for some time now (circa age 17).

 

[Bluenote]

Squig , your entire stance is based upon the paradigm that there is some sort of appreciable difference between the two parties.


There isn't. The Repuplicraps want to take *your* money and put it in the pocket of their rich buddies/masters who didn't earn ie , the Demoncraps want to take *your* money and hand it out to unions , illegal immigrants and others who didn't earn it.

Show me the difference. The end result is the same.

 

[squiggly]

I think there is.

I think one of em isn't made up of primarily bible thumpers. Simple as pie dude.

Edit:

No I'll qualify that further.

I've never seen democrats change the curriculum for the entire country by changing how the history books portray the founding fathers, diminishing some of their roles--talking less about slavery (we already talked about it next to none).

I haven't seen the redistricting to swing the vote. Why even bother doing this if it's all rigged?

I see the effects of right-wing conservatism making real difference on a ground level. Some people think that the curriculum in Oklahoma and Texas only affect Oklahoma and Texas--but in fact the GOP targeted these two areas because they house and make up a large amount of the textbook market.

What they teach, the country teaches, and its been this way for awhile. Talk about sheisty.

I've seen dems do shady things with money but not many shady ones when it comes to ideology. Although there are some. I just think the GOP is stepping over the line more often--Republicans aren't even hiding their motives anymore, and it's having an impact even if your eyes are wide shut to it. If you really believe ideology is separate from the outcome then you may not have been paying attention closely enough to some of the shit repubs have been passing around the country the last 4 years.

It almost ALL goes back to those ideologies, and those laws are going into effect--and affecting people. Perhaps in the long run it doesn't matter, and that's a valid possibility. In the short run, however, it can't be said that it doesn't matter which party their in. One of the parties keeps doing all of this batshit crazy stuff, and the other doesn't (even though it doesn't do too much you can really believe in).

If you really think that organized religion is a batshit as you made it seem you did--then maybe you should consider that they're winning their insane battle to force it on us, little by little, bit by bit. That's a conspiracy I can believe in, because the proof is in the pudding--and they'll tell you to your face that it's their plan.

They're hiding in plain sight about this as you, and many, believe it's all the same.

If you'll notice--the country has gotten shittier and shitter for every decade the vote dropped. Throughout history, the trend has been exactly opposite from that until it began dropping off. The times correlate almost perfectly.

 

[Bluenote]

I think there is.

I think one of em isn't made up of primarily bible thumpers. Simple as pie dude.

.

You gotta be kidding me. There's the disconnect RIGHT there , and bluntly it borders on cognitive dissonance.

Yeah the ' right' is fulla Bible Thumpers , the ' Left' is full of a buncha jackasses who merely traded the Bible for their own Ideology and are thumping it just as hard..

And only Repukes ' redistrict'................think again , and rethink the curriculum in the schools , seen any courses in critical thought or logic below the university level lately? Care to discuss the rewrites of the history of the Civil War?

A friend of mines son got suspended for taking a copy of " Common Sense" to school , think about that for a minute.

Which " God" they endorse ( or ideology) is a BLIND , it's window dressing as Soma for the masses , a distraction. Regardless of the LABEL their real GODS are money and power.

 

[squiggly]

If Christian ideology is to republicans as this "created ideology" is to democrats--then no, I'm not kidding you.

I'll thump that all day, because it has to do with science and industry and reality so far as I'm concerned. If you don't see it, that's fine--but I do. I agree with it as fervently as a republican might agree with the bible.

What I don't always agree with is people's actions--but that doesn't mean that both are the same.

Yes, they are both ideologies--but you've got to realize that's a very vague statement. The similarities don't stop there, but they don't go on forever. To me the different choice is in the difference in ideology.

You say it's a veil, I say again--prove it to me if you want me to believe that. If you don't want to prove it to me--don't be surprised when I don't buy into it. I've got my own opinions. I say even were it a veil--that the veil that rewrites history books, blocks gay marriages, and gives the rich tax breaks is a worse veil.

Certainly you aren't convinced that the republicans still aren't playing a role in these things--and while we're on it let's circle back to the thread topic and quickly realize that republicans are also QUITE against legalization of marijuana in any fashion which does not monetize and monopolize it for their owners (big pharma).

That's where this whole things started, and no I am not kidding you--there is a difference in how the two parties deal with these two things, and a VERY appreciable affect from the differences in those policies (in the short term).

As I said, perhaps in the long term you're right--that its all circling some inevitable drain--but as for right now the laws still count for something, and they're still fucking changing em. I'm in a non medical state and now I can walk around with up to a half oz on me and not worry about going to jail forever--because democrats got into office in my neighborhood and changed the ordinance.

I've scarcely if ever seen a republican sponsor something even this simple--let along talk about legalization or it's benefits. That doesn't mean no republican's have--but its not only far from being a part priority, it's actually pretty firmly in the crosshairs.

Again, if you think it's all the same--you're entitled to that. I don't think that, and I won't--because I've personally felt effects I know I wouldn't have if a certain party or "ideology" was casting the vote representing me.

I'm not sure how this was the disconnect to be honest--I've been pretty clear about this throughout every political post ever just about. I think Christians are a scary version of what can happen when people can convince themselves that a "higher power" told them to do something. The nazi's didn't even need a higher power--an authority figure was enough for them. I don't wanna see what God's plan for america looks like all rolled out and implemented--I'd much rather see the liberal ideology version of that--though I, like you probably, think that either version is fucked if we don't change something about how we do stuff.

Yes, its' really that simple for me. Millions of people think an invisible dude is beaming them orders from heaven and taking in their reports and requests--I'm not really excited to see what happens if we don't slap their hands now. They really are amassing power at an alarming rate through fear tactics and straight up propaganda.

I just hear/see a republican and the first thing I can tell about them is that they are aware of the lie they're telling. They're well educated, and they could give a damn about Jesus--Jesus is a tool for these dudes. Sure you can say the same thing about my side, but the point is that I don't particularly like Jesus or republicans ideas.

I much prefer no god, or separation from god, and democratic governing constructs. I don't understand your claim that they are both the same--they legislate very differently if you look at the margin. True the bulk is more of the same, but the margin changes and so that's what I pay attention to.

 

[Bluenote]

Squig , you're still talking in circles. Bluntly I don't give two shits WHAT Flag or Ideology a Tyrant is clothed in , nor WHAT " Book" they're holding to prop themselves and their plank up , erosion of Personal Freedoms are EXACTLY that regardless of rhetoric and ideologies.

Me? I won't /don't submit............old Japanese saying " Better to die on one's feet in glorious though fruitless battle than to die on one's knees in submission.

 

[Bluenote]

I just hear/see a republican and the first thing I can tell about them is that they are aware of the lie they're telling. They're well educated, and they could give a damn about Jesus--Jesus is a tool for these dudes. Sure you can say the same thing about my side, but the point is that I don't particularly like Jesus or republicans ideas.

.

The above is part of your problem , you'll judge folks simply upon the thin criteria of a LABEL , thus falling into the Separatist Trap the Govt has set for you. Take the Blinders off and look BEYOND arbitrary labels.

Only bleating SHEEP fall for the " all X is good and all Y is bad" bullshit.

 

[squiggly]

Dude you're getting me all wrong.

It's the ideology that I disagree with--essentially if I've got any concept of sheeple that I truly believe in, it is the flock of christian/republican/fox-news-watching/bible-thumping/change-the-laws-to-protect-our-weak-faith-type-people.

You can tell me the governments got me tricked all you want--but FOX news and these people's religion has them tricked and that is where I set my sights. I think part of your problem is believing its all the same rather than acknowledge that these people are batshit and doing their very absolute best to ruin the country.

All of the things that I enjoy and want in my life--are things, for the most part, that they'd love to legislate away. They've already succeeded in doing this for one such thing--marijuana (again the topic of this thread, and board).

As it goes to the content of this thread, I have always believed, still believe, and will never stop believing that republicans are categorically worse in every possible way for every marijuana movement that has ever existed or ever will.

I never said if they were good or bad--just simply that they were wrong. I'm sure they feel the same way about me, and that's fine.

I'm sorry, but I've already taken my blinders off--I was wearing those when I was raised in the church. Now I see it for what it is. A thousands of years tradition intended to usurp power, subjugate women, and convince each other that life never has to end--so long as we make this one as shitty and boring as possible. So far as I'm concerned if you don't see that--then you are the one with blinders on.

You may be right and the government may be leading us down an inevitable path of destruction. I'm not blind to this possibility, I just don't care about it.

If it does happen then logic won't have a role to play in what comes next--so I'll go ahead and potentially waste my logic here in the hopes it won't happen. If it does, well--I'll bust out the 30 ot 6 and make shit happen.

However I'm not going to let it come to that, for me personally, until it needs to. For now I'd rather set my sights towards toppling what I believe has been the driving force in this country's destruction. To me one of the primary reasons we can't band together and move the bullshit along is this contradictory and barbaric religion.

To me, Christianity is the blinder which most people are wearing. If it were to disappear today as a religion I believe my point would be made for me--and that's why I stick to my guns on this one.

In this case it really is as simple to me as "all X are wrong."

and X are Christians.

 

[Bluenote]

To me, Christianity is the blinder which most people are wearing. If it were to disappear today as a religion I believe my point would be made for me--and that's why I stick to my guns on this one.

In this case it really is as simple to me as "all X are wrong."

and X are Christians.

Look Squig , we agree as to the christian Right , however you're merely playing the Blame Game in a fruitless pursuit for a One Size Fits All...simplistic answer.

Sorry but it's not SOLELY the Christian Right , who allow themselves to be manipulated because they wish to preserve their stauts quo ( 501c3 status etc...) , the people BEYOND them who ACTUALLY pull the strings serve only the Gods of Money and Power.

The roundy round dance of party blaming party is ( AGAIN) merely obfuscative Soma for the Masses , a sleight of hand distraction to keep the populace occupied while the other hand rapes your Freedoms and your Wallet.

As I stated , we are *in agreement* on the deleterious effect of the Christian Right , and I can quite likely go much further into discussion of the Seedy Underbelly of aberrant Christianity than you may wish to.

Yes they are **A** "culprit" in this , but only one of the many. And in that fact lies your personal naivete. This is not meant as an insult , only as an observation.

Blind allegiance to a specific party or candidate is rather shortsighted. And due diligence is ...well.............DUE.........example: a lotta folks should exercise said Due diligence as regards Ron Paul , examination of his connections to Christian Reconstructionism and the Dominionist Movement ( Kuyper type NeoCalvinism to the NTH degree) along with the Birchers brings forth some quite disturbing points.

And will you now give equal time to the *Liberal* Christian movements? Who endorse some of the most virulent hate rhetoric ever seen/heard?

For instance ( examples chosen for familarity of the public) is there *really* any conceptual difference between the hate rhetoric of Wright and the Black Liberation Theology crowd and that of the Butler/Hale type pinheads? One is considered "Left" and one " right"..........BUT in the end Hate Is Hate..........PERIOD.

And perhaps the actual central question is one on Humans themselves and their very nature , some of us are **herd animals** , or more correctly *tribal* , we will group together and follow the " hive mind" like a buncha freaking lemmings off the proverbial damn Cliff.

And there are three convenient cliffs available in this election , O'Bummer , RepubliLightFarceRomney , and Pandering Prurient Paul. We screwed for a further four years at the very least no matter HOW it goes.

 

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Okay I get that.

What I think you're not realizing is that I still believe the government works to some extent--and that I'm concerned with what the government will do in the interim between now and its utter destruction.

I KNOW, not guess, not wonder, that the right will legislate in ways that I don't agree with--and that the left does essentially the opposite of that (so far as it concerns me).

I want to see gays with the right to marry. Tell me, exactly, how bashing republicans doesn't sit well with that?

I want to see marijuana legalized. Tell me how disagreeing with the right doesn't line up with this.

That's the disconnect.

You're talking about what's going to happen. I'm talking about what's happening now.

I still believe that things like this matter and that we can change them.

In fact, I don't believe that--it's a fact.

Look at North Carolina and what they've just done. That was the right.

I disagree with it.

That's affecting people and their quality of life RIGHT NOW, THIS DAY. It's not some abstract thing where both democrats and republicans are doing it. NO--it's the bible thumpers dude, clear as day. That's the thing--I give a shit about what is happening to people and what is changing for them in this very moment. I don't look to the future, I look to now.

And right now the republicans are up to no good--and their movement is swelling and compounding itself. It's got to be stopped or we'll have thousands of changes and instances like what we just saw in NC. I care about what happens on a day to to day basis when it comes to personal liberties. Things which are tangible and don't require convincing--things which can be addressed without appealing to some conspiracy.

I've got a conspiracy for you.

A bunch of old Christians just got together in NC and took away a shitload of gay people's rights.

You tell me the democrats are no better--and I just disagree with you. I think an insurance mandate makes sense--because I understand the insurance industry and that what we've been doing for years is unsustainable.

I think there are no such logical arguments to back up MOST of with the right has to say. The left won't always get it correct--but they try. I think republicans try to force their religion, and could care less what happens to this country because Jesus is coming back "soon" (tm).

You'll forgive me if I don't just wait for it to all fall apart--there have been people like you in just about every age in history who have thought the end is right around the corner. They were wrong, and so might you be. I don't think you're crazy anymore than some democrat back in the annals of history who I'm like.

I just think our viewpoints are different.

Well in case it's not, I don't wanna let the republicans drive the car while I wait for it to crash--on the off chance the vehicle may right itself--and then they'd be in the drivers seat.

Nope. Fuck that.

That's what I'm talking about, in any case--stuff like in NC. Not this idea that all of the woes in the country fall in the right's lap. Its these little things, peck by peck, piece by piece (redistricting in Ohio is another example--this was, again, the right and more shit like this will happen if people say/do nothing)

I'm saying the shitty things they do and believe right now, today--I firmly disagree with and believe something can be done to stand up against it.

I'm not going to store beans and ammunition about it. I'm going to try to change it.