Mystery Mildew/Mold?

[Green Mopho]

I need some real help diagnosing this problem. It has spread all over my veg room and is slowly defoliating and killing the leaves from the bottom up. There are visible spores on some of the top fan leaves, and the tips of the shoots are brown/rust colored. It is slowly killing my plants and clones taken from these plants will not root. I regularly cycle through imid, avid, and eagle 20 in my veg room every 30-60 days. No aphids, PM, or mites present. Some occasional fungus gnats, but mosquito dunks are used everywhere. I usually only foliar mist water with a dash of Aquashield, but have been lazy the last few weeks as its gotten hot and super dry, so I've been wetting down the plants with the hose. I'm thinking its a mildew such as black spot (septoria) or downy mildew that could of spread with unconditioned water as the main vector. It seems surprisingly resilient and is disabling my plants. Any ideas?

http://i905.invalid.com/albums/ac257/iamgreen420/Fungus/DSC_0072.jpg
http://i905.invalid.com/albums/ac257/iamgreen420/Fungus/DSC_0063.jpg
http://i905.invalid.com/albums/ac257/iamgreen420/Fungus/DSC_0059.jpg
http://i905.invalid.com/albums/ac257/iamgreen420/Fungus/DSC_0062copy.jpg
http://i905.invalid.com/albums/ac257/iamgreen420/Fungus/DSC_0062.jpg

You can see some of the mildew's spores on the leaves in some of these pics.

I've already done foliar treatments in 48 hour intervals using:

Aquashield (heavy dose)
DM Zone + DM Saturator
generic brand copper soap spray
Greencure
Actinovate

and its still showing up and plants still have no new growth, and I'm still seeing spores on leaves.

Before anyone comments and says its a nutrient lockout/pH issue, look at my past threads and posts please. People love to belittle others with obvious answers in the infirmary and I promise you I know what the fuck I'm doing, I almost never have issues like this! It is showing up on various strains and in all stages of life, clones, seedlings, small and large vegglings, mothers, etc. It is on my plants that are in ProMix being fed organic compost teas, it is on my hydro mothers being fed GH 1-1-1 at 6.1 pH, it is on my vegglings being fed H&G AquaFlakes at 5.8 pH, and its also on my coco plants that are being fed H&G Cocos at 5.5 pH, all different additives and ppms, etc.

I have on hand some "stronger" systemic stuff that I'm not sure about using. Not sure if anyone has any recommendations on systemics or the like. But it looks like if this battle goes for the worst, I might have to break out the serious poisons. I also picked up a bottle of CEASE (1.34% B. Subtillis), which is basically just super strong Serenade. Gonna give it a shot while I'm still trying to kill it topically and/or biologically.

 

[Green Mopho]

My buddy recommended a few products such as Heritage or chlorothalonil, but reading up on both products, they seem pretty serious, especially the Heritage. I need to step up the game on the fungicides or I'm gonna loose my genetics...WTF!?!?!

 

[Seamaiden]

Wow... that doesn't look like anything I've seen (yet), either. What types of searches have you done? Defoliating from bottom up is classic Septoria presentation, in just about every species I recall reading about. I think I mentioned when I was dealing with it I went with... Kop-R-Safe, I don't think it can be considered a copper soap, but it's definitely cupric, very blue. It took multiple treatments and required increasing dosage. Unfortunately I never kept notes, I can't tell you what strength finally did the trick for me.

However, the Septoria I dealt with didn't look like what you're photographing. The leaves went yellow with green spots, not black or brown, took weeks for actual necrosis to show up.

I have found, and I think others who've gone down the similar road, that if it's a disease vectored by root aphids, then it's next to impossible to eradicate. Perhaps it's time to try Physan or other methods of clone disinfection. I would look to ag and uni extension services for help finding a solution as well.

Sorry I can't be of more help!

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

is it hot in your room? i know its spring so temps are rising. but im just trying to figure it out. to me it looks like furry mold. best thing i can think of is to kill off the plants u don't need or can get again from someone. and work on treating the ones u got. this way maybe u can turn of a light or too and help bring the temps down and get soem more air circulation. u usually see this in humidity domes were the tops are on and the humidity and temps are much higher. when u take cuts does it form around the wound of the plant? are you in a new location or take in any new plants? maybe soem new workers.. what has changed, temps new water..whatever.

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

is it on the surface of the soil as well? if so take the ones u want to keep brush off the top layers of soil and re-pot them after u get the temps in check or take 1 or 2 and put them out side and see if that helps clear it up. if so then u know its your room. u may have to add supplemental lighting if u do it right now but if u can wait till the 25th of may or later u will not. i also noticed with furry mold once they recovered from the cloning and cutting they seemed to grow out of infection.

 

[bobby-o]

what up,

from the first couple pics I wouldnt even see fungus but a mircro nute deficiency, then when u get down to the like 3rd or 4th whichever one is the moldy looking leafage. From the looks of those pics would say gray mold.

Honestly bro no one hear can help you with the info you provided.
Being in the field plant consultants your going to need to give more info such as R/h and temp being key if you think it is a fungus issue.

Also what is the temp of your water when watering?

Those 3 things right there will help determine if it is a fungus issue or not.

Also downy mildew is located on the bottom of the leaves, only on the bottom. Powdery mildew is located on the top.


Edit what ever this may be is causing marginal necrosis.
Downy Mildew is easily identified when there is prolonged moisture on the bottom of the leaves.

 

[MIway]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pp271


""The pathogen of downy mildew that infects plants related to basil, such as the ornamental plants coleus and salvia, is present in Florida. However, it is not known whether this is the same downy mildew pathogen and which particular hosts are infected by this strain although the isolate from coleus is reported to infect basil in greenhouses in New York.

Symptoms of downy mildew initially appear as yellowing of basil leaves (Fig. 1) and are typically concentrated around the middle vein (Fig. 2). Growers generally do not realize their basil plants are infected with downy mildew disease since the most noticeable symptom on affected basil is yellowing of the leaves (Fig. 1), which is phenotypically similar as the result of a nutritional problem. The discolored area may cover most of the leaf surface. On the underside of leaves, a gray, fuzzy growth may be apparent by visual inspection (Fig. 3). Under high humidity, the chlorotic areas on the leaf turn to dark brown quickly (Fig. 4). Sporangia, the reproductive structures of the pathogen, are easily detected under magnification and are diagnostic for this disease (Fig.5).""



How do ya like the source? ;-)


They had some pics that showed varying necrosis & yellowing that could've easily been seen as nute issues, burn, heat, etc.

I highly doubt you will find the exact type of infection, which will make it difficult to find a specific treatment.... :worried

 

[TortureKill]

Looks horrendous whatever it is, I hope u can get in in check and save the rest of the plants. Ive only dealt with bouts of powdery mold, so I can only wish you luck in this case.

 

[Green Mopho]

Yea, killing all my plants and starting over is NOT AN OPTION. Sorry.

Heritage IS an option.

And like I said, this is NOT a micro or pH issue.

The veg room has the ceiling lined with 8 bulb T5 racks and is air conditioned as well as having an active air intake with a HEPA on a temp controller. Even with all the heat lately, the room hasn't been above 86 degrees with good airflow, maybe dipped down to ~72 at night. RH has been varying a bit, been down to 9-11% a few times, but with the humidifiers full, it doesn't get above 45-55% RH, where I usually keep it. I think the fluctuation of RH hurt me more than anything.

Water temps usually stay around the same level as room temps, although I run warmers in the winter. There is no mold on the surface of the soil or anywhere else than pictured, other than on the stems near the infected shoots.

I do think Seamaiden is on to something, more than anyone else here, as I did have a little bit of a RA infection about 2 months ago, that I controlled instantly, but there was some damage to at least a dozen or 2 plants, some of which are the same plants showing symptoms right now.

 

[motherlode]

looks like it might be rust mold

I remember as a kid my grandpas tomaotes got the rust mold one year

 

[Green Mopho]

I'm thinking its rust or downey or the like and particularly resilient and systemically infected. Gonna go with the hard stuff and not flower out those moms that get hit with the hard stuff. I just need to cure it so long that I can sucessfully take cuts, kill the moms, and clean that whole room top to bottom, in that order.

 

[MIway]

Physan the room... still love that stuff... even the fans... ;-)

 

[Green Mopho]

Physan the room... still love that stuff... even the fans... ;-)

Yea, already did that, guess I'll have to do that again after this is "cured" systemically or what not. Looks like CEASE didn't quite do the trick, gonna go with the hard stuff and take clones when they are better, not flower out the moms. Then clean the fuck out of the room again, Physan the fans and HEPA filter, maybe its time to change out those charcoal filters, too....hmmm...

 

[Seamaiden]

Physan the room... still love that stuff... even the fans... ;-)

So... wait, you mean I'm not an idiot for using Physan on all my indoor equipment...?

I love vindication, it fits me so well and makes my hair shiny. :makeup

Where oh where are the smack talkers now?

GM, I'm going to start doing cuttings like the orchid enthusiasts and dip EVERYTHING in Physan before I even attempt to root them. I'm also going to feed moms aspirin while fattening them prior to taking cuts, in an attempt to boost their immune system responses. If I knew of anything else that might help with immune system I would incorporate that as well. I think seaweed is helpful, but I use it so regularly I really can't say for sure.

You might want to add to this thread if you try T2U's recommendation (whether it works or not), it could be very helpful for others who come up with this problem.

 

[MIway]

Someone was giving you crap about the Physan???

This stuff is great... soft enough diluted that you can use it as a hand sterilizer, yet can be bumped up to really kill... even plants, if high enough... burned them at .5ml per gal as a foliar.


The moment my cuttings went super clean... pumping out trays... I have one cup with 2 drops of Physan to the Gal... place all my cut stems in there to hold. This is after a pretrim on the plant itself.

Another cup that I dip & swirl the cuts with... top & bottoms.

Another cup that I keep my scissors & scalpels in... 4 drops per gal.

A spray bottle that I use for the trays/gear/hands... 2 drops per gal.

DipNGrow, then the cubes... which are soaked in Roots Excel.

No light for 6 hours immediately after the cuts, then no dome ever... no wilt ever... no mold ever.


Physan is a big part of this process... it works.



SORRY GM~ SM just got me when peeps were questioning her on the Physan... ;-)

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

hope it gets under control. i didnt mean kill all ur plants, was just saying get rid of the ones u can. it will be easier to treat less plants.

 

[Green Mopho]

Oh that, we've had that around here for years now we call it the plague.

Go get yourself a fungicide with sulfur as the active ingredient and spray the hell out of them top to bottom, they will green up and the sand will go away.

Safer Garden Fugicide, active ingredient sulfur. You can get it right at an Ace Hardware if you have one in your area for like $7 a bottle, they also have some other stuff that you can in a bigger bag and mix yourself thats like pure sulfur or some shit, that works good too.

Has it got so bad that it looks like sand is growing on the new shoots? Trust me I know all about it, new shoots turn a shithole brown color and nothing seems to grow anymore, after awhile it literally looks like there is sand on your plants. You'll be shocked how well the spray works your plants will start to recover almost right away. The sulfur will kind of turn your plants white dont worry about it, and your room will smell like you were bored and decided to light a few box of matches lol.

Spray the entire plant, every plant. If you have big moms with it try to ditch them once your sure you got smaller back ups. Smaller plants will be easier to treat.

Only thing we haven't figured out is if it's systemic or not. Its either always in the plant or hard as hell to get rid of. I gave the shit to a buddy, got rid of it myself, then got cuts back from him and got it again, so I think you can beat it.

I was down to my last resorts with it, if you wanna try something hardcore try some Oxidate, I was about to get some but the sulfur worked like a champ and is much cheaper.....good luck let me know

This is T2U's advice from TCC, just so everyone can read it, incase the have the same issue. However even here he says he has issues with it coming back and believing it to be systemic...therefore I'm T minus 2 hours from spraying harsh systemics, fuck it, gotta do it. Good thing its a cold day, cuz I'd be sweating in a chem suit with long pants, socks, boots, and long sleeve shirt on underneath. Tomorrow, Physan EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE!

Wow, MI, I've seen you take cuttings, but didn't realize Physan was so integral to the process. For taking cuttings, I've always just cleaned hands with rubbing alcohol or disinfectant soap, and get a 100+ razor blade easy dispenser, use a fresh blade for every plant and after every 5 cuts, so it doesn't contaminate and doesn't dull. Botanicare Aquashield (used to be Hydroguard) has been the (biological) fungicide of our choosing for the last few years, and works pretty well to prevent mold and mildew. I prefer the biological fungicide route for day to day stuff on live plants, instead of going sterile with physan, and then some of that physan killing my expensive ass Roots Excelurator. Like I said, part of the problem might of been me being lazy and spraying the moms down with water from the hose the last few weeks, without Aquashield or Actinovate. Although my water is pretty clean, comes out at 72ppm, 7.1-7.2 pH and passes through a UV filter. I suppose I should Physan the hose....

I like using Physan for cleaning surfaces, but not ever TOUCHING my plants, because it does have the potential to burn and kill, and I tend to eyeball measurements a bit. I prefer Physan as a cleaner, as it doesn't seem to leave as much residue as bleach, and doesn't off gas and give everyone headaches and fuck with the plants while you are cleaning around them. Also, when I've cleaned my buckets with bleach, even after they sit and dry for a day or two, I swear when I fill em up and put bennies and plants in, that I get some organic matter "fall-out" and die in the buckets...pretty sure bleach residue still kills microorganisms. Now I clean the buckets in 2 stages, first stage I clean and scrub with physan, then vacuum out all the crap, then I run the system again with Drip Clean, Hygrozyme, and H2O2 for a day or two to dissolve all the stuck on crud, organic or salt based.

We got off track...will check in tomorrow to see if the systemics had an effect.

 

[MIway]

Yeah... I'v cut into water in cups over 4 weeks too... lol


GL on the chem round... nothing a 40 minute silkwood style shower won't fix... ;-) I can taste it even... never leaves your memory... ughhh

 

[Green Mopho]

GL on the chem round... nothing a 40 minute silkwood style shower won't fix... ;-) I can taste it even... never leaves your memory... ughhh

??????

 

[MIway]

Silkwood... Meryl Streep... the shower scrub from radioactive exposure... lol


Don't you kinda get that metallic/chemy taste in the mouth w you breathe that shit? S C A R Y ...

I'm confident that cancer is growing somewhere in my body because of the years of growing... if not the chemical exposures, then the UV from the bulbs...