MYTH: more roots= better yield

  • Thread starter Capulator
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
nMEEKS

nMEEKS

Horticulturist
Supporter
1,023
263
All that said, I am very curious to see the outcome under the current testing conditions that the OP has decided to perform.

I think you miss the point I am trying to make on the increase of the light source but its not a big deal really.

The light source would NOT affect the roots ability to process nutrients and that is not what I said at all.

The roots are not in contact with ANY nutrition or water at all if they are NOT present or even there.

Cheers!

You are correct that non existent roots are not in contact with anything :). Maybe if you read through a few of my posts on the previous page you will understand why I was asking for clarification, because at this point I think I will have to politely disagree that fewer roots translates to less ability to intake water and nutrients in a root system submerged in water and nutrient solution.

-Meeks

P.S. I kinda hope that Cap shuts us both up by showing his plant with cut roots getting twice the yield somehow! Picture a cannabis industry where we all routinely chop out roots every week, HAHA. On with the show Cap!
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
No disrespect intended by this statement at all.... but for the sake of science, the success of growers on this site, and my Hydrus systems reputation, I have to state this...

Im sure your heart is in the right place here but you are wrong about your thoery
Surround just one of your plants with 4 1000's and see what it yields 60 days later. Then compare it to the size and yield of one of my plants.

It will not be 4 pounds!

Your plant wouldnt even be able to process the amount of light given to them. The leaves would curl up, grow very small in length and turn lime green. Believe me I have tried it to save money on my very first MPB attempt and failed miserably. Yhe same thing will happen to me if one of my plants gets severe root rot. She cant handle it captain, she aint got the power. More roots gives your plants the ability to process more light. Otherwise, you may as well put a 1000 watter on a clone.

Just some constructive criticism. No disrespect.

None taken homie. I run an MPB too. If I could get in there and chop out roots for the experiment, I would. Rot is not the same as smaller amounts of healthy roots.


I agree with you in that the plant size makes the yield,

I also think that a lot of roots arent really necessary when all the food and water is readily available, assuming they are healthy roots, and not rotted ones.


Actually just read a bonzai thread on here and thought it was interesting that this dude was getting 10 thousand cuttigns a year under a 2x4 flourescent and a few bonzaid plants that were a foot tall.

HEre:


Also, I am not trying to take anything away from Hydrus(tm), which I think is a very well thought out and great looking system. I am sure it will yield like a champion. 4k of lights around each 6'x6' plant, its hard to not yield well if everything is on point. You have made some nice improvements to DD's system, so keep up the good work man. Much respect.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
i c u plan to prune roots?

Yeah Ill.

Im gonna be pruning the shit out of the roots on plant 2, and letting plant 1 do its thing. So far the root mass of plant 1 is abotu 4-6x the root mass of 2 after the first chop. I will chop again soon to keep the roots at a fraction of the rest.


Its pretty severe root pruning. the first (and only) time I chopped I took off about 2/3's. This plant has shown no sighns of stress so far.

I will post all environmental conditions when I get in there later today.
 
nMEEKS

nMEEKS

Horticulturist
Supporter
1,023
263
A quick link to some info on Cytokinins:
http://www.plant-hormones.info/cytokinins.htm

I know from my horticulture classes that the main location Cytokinins are produced is in the roots. It is then transported up the plant in the Xylem and increases cell division and expansion. If it turns out that the majority of Cytokinins are produced in the meristems of the roots (the root tips) then you may notice reduced plant shoot growth. But, if it turns out that enough cytokinins are produced in the root itself (not just the root tips) then you shouldn't see much of a reduction. The plant communicates with itself using hormones and so if it is not signaling to slow growth because of lack of cytokinin production, theoretically growth should continue as normal. This brings up a new hypothesis to test; is it possible to keep the root mass extremely small and then add supplemental synthetic cytokinins to keep the plant producing new shoot growth at its usual rate (rate of a plant with a lot more roots producing cytokinins naturally)?

Man Cap, this thread is getting me thinking about all kinds of things. Thanks for creating such a thought provoking thread!

-Meeks
 
Aerojoe

Aerojoe

486
43
Am I the only one who thinks that cap's idea is good but his methods of going about it could be a lot better. I don't think this experiment can come to too many conclusions. Like I mentioned earlier, you should be growing it in a smaller dwc vs. bigger dwc that way neither plant has to get stressed(negatively or positively). It's kinda like saying you believe in defoliating and to prove it will work your gonna over do it because you said you'd keep cutting the roots throughout it's whole life to keep it a certain size instead of just root bounding it in a smaller bin to restrict. So not only are you hoping to get good yield quality on a plant you plan to stress it's whole life? now I'm thinking your just gonna hermie your stuff possibly depending on how finicky the strain is.

I commend you for doing this cap, just don't want this semi experiment to misinform or mislead people(especially cause of your title). Really would be less effort on your part using small vs. big bin dwc, you wouldn't need to be cutting your roots all the time and also skewing the controls because you've changed too much from plant a vs. plant b. The variables are no longer just size of root but also that one is being cut constantly. Any way good luck, just my 2cents.
 
nMEEKS

nMEEKS

Horticulturist
Supporter
1,023
263
Am I the only one who thinks that cap's idea is good but his methods of going about it could be a lot better. I don't think this experiment can come to too many conclusions. Like I mentioned earlier, you should be growing it in a smaller dwc vs. bigger dwc that way neither plant has to get stressed(negatively or positively). It's kinda like saying you believe in defoliating and to prove it will work your gonna over do it because you said you'd keep cutting the roots throughout it's whole life to keep it a certain size instead of just root bounding it in a smaller bin to restrict. So not only are you hoping to get good yield quality on a plant you plan to stress it's whole life? now I'm thinking your just gonna hermie your stuff possibly depending on how finicky the strain is.

I commend you for doing this cap, just don't want this semi experiment to misinform or mislead people(especially cause of your title). Really would be less effort on your part using small vs. big bin dwc, you wouldn't need to be cutting your roots all the time and also skewing the controls because you've changed too much from plant a vs. plant b. The variables are no longer just size of root but also that one is being cut constantly. Any way good luck, just my 2cents.

You are not the only one who has this concern. Read the first page if you want to see others express the same concern before you have here.
-Meeks
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
Am I the only one who thinks that cap's idea is good but his methods of going about it could be a lot better. I don't think this experiment can come to too many conclusions. Like I mentioned earlier, you should be growing it in a smaller dwc vs. bigger dwc that way neither plant has to get stressed(negatively or positively). It's kinda like saying you believe in defoliating and to prove it will work your gonna over do it because you said you'd keep cutting the roots throughout it's whole life to keep it a certain size instead of just root bounding it in a smaller bin to restrict. So not only are you hoping to get good yield quality on a plant you plan to stress it's whole life? now I'm thinking your just gonna hermie your stuff possibly depending on how finicky the strain is.

I commend you for doing this cap, just don't want this semi experiment to misinform or mislead people(especially cause of your title). Really would be less effort on your part using small vs. big bin dwc, you wouldn't need to be cutting your roots all the time and also skewing the controls because you've changed too much from plant a vs. plant b. The variables are no longer just size of root but also that one is being cut constantly. Any way good luck, just my 2cents.

I can root prune weekly to keep the root mass at a minimum. I am comparing mass vs. mass. I do not believe the plant is stressing from it based on growth observations since cutting was done.

I agree with you about it being cut constantly not being the same as just growing in to a smaller space. However, if you did not root prune, the same size plant in a smaller container would get root bound (given all other factors constant), and thus the plant being root bound would also be an additional variable.

These are two plants same strain.
They are in the same row, equidistant to the center of the light.
They get the exact same food and water since they are in the same row and same res.

The only difference is I am keeping plant 2's roots at a minimum. I think IF plant #2 yields similar to plant #1, then I am on to something. What that something is, I dont know.

IS the title misleading? Perhaps if you dont read this whole thread. We all have our own opinions, and I am sure the reader can make their own judgement.


NOW,

in an MPB, root pruning woudl be impossible at later stages. I can barely lift my lids past 4th week, and pulling a plant out to root prune woudl be impossible and quite frankly retarded.

@ thompsons: With the hydrus, and access ports, this idea may not be so far fetched, and perhaps a mini MPB with access ports and debris catcher could be manufactured to save main reservoir volume.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
Cool Thanks man. Good luck with the experiment. Given the amont of light they are getting, Im sure the yields will be close to equal.

Right.

My thoughts are given equal light, and unlimited supply of water and nutes...

whether a plant has a bucket full of roots, or a half bucket full really shouldn't matter. thats what this experiment is all about.
 
Aerojoe

Aerojoe

486
43
NOW,

in an MPB, root pruning woudl be impossible at later stages. I can barely lift my lids past 4th week, and pulling a plant out to root prune woudl be impossible and quite frankly retarded.

@ thompsons: With the hydrus, and access ports, this idea may not be so far fetched, and perhaps a mini MPB with access ports and debris catcher could be manufactured to save main reservoir volume.

I like your idea a lot cap, don't take offense from what I wrote. I was just trying to refine your experiment. I was thinking root bound would be less variable and also the water and nutes would still be the same throughout if they come from same rez. Also you'd be able to restrict it's root size even at the later stages of flowering. Maybe next time? I do appreciate your use of space in the pursuit of knowledge. keep it up.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
I like your idea a lot cap, don't take offense from what I wrote. I was just trying to refine your experiment. I was thinking root bound would be less variable and also the water and nutes would still be the same throughout if they come from same rez. Also you'd be able to restrict it's root size even at the later stages of flowering. Maybe next time? I do appreciate your use of space in the pursuit of knowledge. keep it up.

definitely no offense taken.

Not sure how long this experiment will last this round. It seems I have gotten a little root rot throughout the system. I have been a little lazy and more focused on my MPBs. Forgot to make the tea last week. water has been runngin pretty warm with the additional pump going 24/7.

Dropped some h2o2, and will add back the tea in 48 hours.
 
leadsled

leadsled

GrowRU
2,145
263
Myth vs Science

IMHO Like already stated, would possibly be more beneficial to go about things in a more scientific manner. Think about the questions posed as well then conduct a real test.


Let me share this excellent article.
----------------------------------
Testing and Trialing

by Dr. Lynette Morgan
2010-08-01

Not all of us are science geeks, but sometimes we need science to help us make important decisions about how we grow our crops. Horticulture is one branch of applied science that there is still much to learn about and even small growers can discover and investigate new ideas. Most of us have tried a new product, nutrient formulation, growth promotant or pest spray to see how well it performs on our plants, but often the results are just speculation. Natural variation within biological systems involving plants is so common that determining if there is an actual effect can be difficult unless the set-up is precise and correct in the first place. However, with good planning, knowledge of the correct scientific method and some basic math, accurate testing and trialing is possible.
The dangers of informal comparisons

Unfortunately many bad decisions and misinterpretations have been made because of informal plant tests. Applying a new product to be tested and ‘seeing how it goes’ doesn’t generate conclusive answers and may give an inaccurate result as to the effectiveness of the treatment. Tests must be compared to something else for the results to be relevant. The new idea, product or system is termed the ‘treatment’ and what it is compared against is called the ‘control.’ The control is a separate set of plants grown under the same conditions, to which the treatment is not applied. The treatment plants and control plants form the basis of the trial and accurate comparisons can be made.
Natural variations in light, temperature and humidity tend to occur accross most growing environments, so experimental design is important to help prevent bias.


Step 1: Ask a question

All good experiments originate from a basic question. For instance, ‘Will this new product make my crop grow faster or producer higher yields?’ Depending on your production philosophy, other questions might involve wanting to know if organic pest control methods are effective, or if water treatment reduces the occurrence of pythium. Asking such questions leads to forming the hypothesis of the experiment—a statement about what the predicted result of the experiment might be. The experiment either proves or disproves the hypothesis.
Step 2: Restrict biological bias

The problem with plant trials is that plants are naturally quite variable. Even within a crop sown at the same time, of the same cultivar and grown in the same environment, natural variations will exist in growth and yields from plant to plant. With a correctly run trial, we want to reduce this natural variation as much as possible; otherwise we might incorrectly assume that some naturally occurring differences were caused by the treatment we applied and assume the wrong conclusions. A good example of natural bias is taking one or two plants and applying different treatments to each. Many plants are required to ensure that the differences are more likely to be due to the treatment rather than just some natural variation between a small set of individual plants. Another common mistake is putting all of the treatment plants in a group and putting the control plants in a separate group across the other side of the growing area. There are always slight differences in temperature, humidity and light within a growing area, so any differences between the two sets of plants might be due to slight differences in their growing environment, rather than an indication of the treatment results.

Step 3: Replication and randomization

To try and reduce the natural bias that plant experiments are prone to, replication and randomization are used. In a randomized experimental design, plants or plots of plants are randomly assigned to an experimental group of treatment. Randomization is the most reliable way of creating treatment groups that all start out exactly the same. It prevents the largest seedlings or heaviest plants from being selected for one treatment, while smaller plants end up in another—a major source of bias that gives incorrect results.
Replication is equally important; sufficient replication improves the significance of the result and reduces result variability. Generally in small experiments, three or more replications are used, with each replication having at least six to 10 plants. For example, in a basic experiment involving tomatoes there would be two treatments: (i) the old nutrient product, which is the control treatment and (ii) the new nutrient product to be tested. Each of these treatments (control and new nutrient) would have three sets (replications) each containing six or more plants. This gives a total of six sets of six plants. Once the data from this is obtained it can be easily analyzed to determine if the new nutrient had a significant effect or not. This is far more accurate than simply dividing six plants into two separate treatment groups as the replications help eliminate some of that natural variation plants are prone to.
Each of the three reps of six plants would then be randomly assigned a position in the growing area. When the plants are measured or assessed, the data from each treatment replication is kept separate so that some statistics can be carried out to determine if differences caused by the new treatment actually exist.
Once the trial is up and running it is vital that, apart from the treatment being applied, all plants in the experiment are treated exactly the same. This means they are given the same amount of light, water, nutrients, pest and disease control (if needed during the trial) and any other growth factors, so as not to compromise the trial. The different treatments and replications need to be grown at the same time and they must be of the same species and cultivar (unless different species and cultivars are the actual trial).
“Even when we try to be neutral, we tend to be influenced by what we want to see.”

Some growers choose to run their experiment more than once. This is a good idea if using a greenhouse or outdoor crop as seasons will affect the results of many trials. Running more than one trial over time can also confirm results of a certain treatment, which is worth doing to add weight to a product claim or a new idea being tested.
Unfortunately many good plant trials have been wasted by not carrying out the correct assessment or measurements. Simply ‘eye-balling’ plants to see if there are any visible differences between treatments often gives rather inaccurate results, particularly if the treatments applied have highly visible labels so the assessor knows which is the control and which plants have been given the new treatment. Even when we try to be neutral, we tend to be influenced by what we want to see. Hoping a new treatment will grow faster can lead to the assessor seeing slight differences in height that are not actually there. Also, many successful treatments often have effects that can’t be seen by looking at the plants. Plants of the same height may have one treatment that is heavier or has a greater dry weight, or better tasting fruit, all of which can’t be measured by just looking at the treatments. Determining what to measure and using analytical data (weights, lengths, leaf area index, chemical composition, nutritional analysis, etc.) gives more accurate results than just having a look-see at the plants.

Step 4: Recording

Every aspect of an experiment should be recorded: observations, applications, measurements, calculations, conclusions, etc. This serves two purposes—it allows others to follow your method and achieve the same results and it allows the trial to be reviewed in case of an unexpected result. Sometimes unintended biases can occur in a trial and often reviewing records can help the grower work out what went wrong. Taking photographs of any treatment differences or unusual occurrences is also useful for future reference.
Part of the experimental design is careful consideration of what variables to measure. There are obvious measurements such as plant weight at harvest or fruit yields per week, but sometimes determining the most meaningful data can be difficult. Plant height is not necessarily an indication of growth rate or productivity. Sometimes shorter, more branched plants produce more fruit than taller, leaner ones and plant fresh weight may not be that meaningful if testing a product that claims to increase fruit flavor. Fruit or vegetable flavor assessment can be a minefield as taste tests need to be run correctly and by many different trained panelists to get a true indication of flavor improvement. There are also analytical tests such as brix for sweetness, which can be easily carried out by growers running small trials. Often in horticultural trials, percentage of dry plant matter is used as a better indication of increased photosynthesis and biomass production. With hydroponic experiments it is always a good idea to keep track of EC, pH and water usage between different treatments. When trialing pest and disease control products other factors may be more relevant such as the number of live or dead insects after spray application, size of disease lesions, spray damage occurrence as well as overall yields and plant performance.
Step 5: What to do with the data

Once the data has been collected from a trial—plant weight, height, leaf area, yield or any other ‘hard’ data—the first step to analyzing the results is to find the mean or average from each treatment set. Just eye-balling a set of measurements and trying to decide which is highest, or totaling them, is not going to give an accurate answer. The mean value per treatment is required. The mean is calculated by adding up all the numbers for each treatment and dividing it by the number of plants in that treatment. Technically, with a true scientific trial, we would not just stop at working out the mean of each treatment. While it gives us a rough indication of differences that might be significant, it is the variance of the data around the mean that gives the final answer as to whether a treatment had a relevant effect or not. It is not difficult to work out the variance and standard error of a set of data and is usually well covered in basic math courses. For those of us for whom school was quite a long time ago and who need a reminder the following links and references detail the process.
A well thought out and run trial with correctly analyzed data can tell us a great deal about the effects of a new treatment and give sufficient credibility to make claims about a new idea, system, product or cultivar. However, plants are part of a biological system naturally prone to individual differences and biases, so understanding the experimental method and why it is used is a great tool for anyone wanting to carry out evaluations.
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

529
43
Well put leadsled. I just tried to summarise this 50 posts too soon :) no offense was intended cap.

I missed that it was rwdc. My point with the hypothetical tables was to jack the plant numbers up. Ie If say 50 plants is the minimum for conclusive results then you'd need 3 cycles with 16 plants. One plant at a time would be 50 crops. It's a matter of whether you want real results and want to maximise your time and effort.

Is there a pragmatic purpose of this trial cap? What do you plan to do if the outcome is similar? Is pruning roots is worth the effort? How does it benefit a grow?
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
I hear you guys.

No offense taken crys. Only good vibes.

The purpose was only to get me started on some real thinking.

IF plant 2 yielded the same as plant 1 with 1/8 the roots and all other variables constant, then I would be intrigued. I may at that point research ways to slow (potentially) ---->unecessary root growth, to move energy to FLOWER production.

Now, all of my roots are looking a little shabby because my water has been running too warm this round after changing some things around.

BUT, lets say I did half severe root pruning, and half no root pruning, and lets just say hypothetically that the plants that were root pruned produced 25% more flower mass...

Would I start root pruning everything? You're damn right I would!


I know most people don't want to take risks like this with their crops, and I feel like that we all have our methods that we get used to because they are good enough for us. However, the only way to discover is to experiment. This is just to start some discussion and maybe start questioning things that we don't normally question because they are deemed "common knowledge"
 
I

ir0nLung

79
33
if cap can manage to keep the roots healthy on both plants it will definitely be interesting to see the difference in yield between the two. my guess would be the bigger roots win as well, but i am curious to see by how much.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
6,070
313
plants 1 and 2 looking fairly identical. Plant 2 has way less roots.

hit a snag with some rot. My water temps are 77. I added my root pack and started getting white roots again.

Really need a chiller though. the new system has a 1800 gph pump runing 24/7 and keeps my water temps too high for my taste.

ALTHOUGH:: If you research nutrient uptake, plants actually pull more nutes when root temps are higher (80ish).

Next run I may get a chiller for one side, and leave the other side warm. See what happens.
 
Top Bottom