Outdoor Organic Grow - Need Some Help!

[Bannacis]

I can see that it not being a problem outdoors, just indoors... probably has to do more with peeps using to much?
I use it my teas, it deff feeds the micro life...

 

[Seamaiden]

Bannacis, that's what I think, that perhaps people may be using too much, depending on their goals of course. I've used higher rates with the specific goal of forcing fading/yellowing late in flower. Gotta get the timing right, because once that microbe population explosion crashes, you get all kinds of available N.

 

[Paperchase]

Bannacis, that's what I think, that perhaps people may be using too much, depending on their goals of course. I've used higher rates with the specific goal of forcing fading/yellowing late in flower. Gotta get the timing right, because once that microbe population explosion crashes, you get all kinds of available N.

So u are saying that u shud use small amounts and around week 6or7 up the amount to get that fading/yellowing?

 

[Bannacis]

Hows the higher amount of molasses work in force fading?

The fading of the leaves (yellowing) near end of harvest is that the plant has no nutes left in the soil or roots, so it draws the available N from the large leaves. That's why they yellow.
You want your plant to use all its nutrients it stores in it roots and leave, To ripen up per say. Like fruit on a tree.
What always works for me, is A good plain water flush at the beginning or close to the last 2 weeks of flowering.
I use cool water to emulate fall rains. I also lower my night time temps to emulate fall.
I want all resources of nutrients used up as soon as possible...no more feeding what so ever.
I use tlo, its a living soil... mainly if you continue to feed your soil, it will have nutes available for your plant.
my soil recipe will last my plant to end of harvest.
I'm sure other peeps do it different... I just know what works for me....but always open for new info....lol

 

[Seamaiden]

I don't use TLO specifically, I personally feel it's a bit gimmicky, though I totally appreciate that it's getting people to do things organically and in a more holistic style. I do, however, use soil food web methods and techniques, my soil and environment is very 'alive' and active.

The way the higher amount of molasses works for forcing a fade (or *any* sugar!) is that it causes an explosion of nitrogen-utilizing bacteria. They temporarily fix N as their population explodes. However, if you do it for too long, then when that population crashes (dies) you're going to be giving the plants too much N as they release it and make it available for uptake again.

I don't feed (outdoor) for the most part, it's just well amended soil. This year I've been experimenting with cover cropping the cannabis, but since I only had amaranth and red clover on hand I didn't quite create a guild (permaculture terminology). I should say that I do occasionally foliar, definitely treat proactively for future caterpillars (but this year I again want to do things a little differently and instead of spraying use insect barrier, should do some double duty for me in preventing weed seeds from getting stuck in my buds, I hate that shit).

In any event, the point is that my plants only really ever get water through the season, and I don't EVER FLUSH, EVER. Especially in organics, the concept is... the opposite of redundant. I'm wondering why, if you're using TLO/soil food web methods, you even need to flush. I haven't found it to be necessary, ever.

So u are saying that u shud use small amounts and around week 6or7 up the amount to get that fading/yellowing?

I prefer using lower amounts through the grow. If I have a plant that I feel is too green near the end of the run, then I will up the amount in a large way and force yellowing by causing an explosion of microbes.

 

[Afghi420]

Definitely the harshness is the mg, good that you stop early.
The rev states not to use liquid nutes on your soil, just in your teas and only a little at that. His brand of earth juice is all organic.
And too much of it is bad for the micro climate, it really wacks it out of balance. Organic is any nutrients that is derived from all natural substance...devoid of synthetics or chelated acids.
Tlo is organic but it is living, so in a sense you feed your soil not your plant.
I follow the Revs words like gospel. I love TLO style growing, I recycle my soil. I love the results from tlo.
I think that some organic growers use nutes or additives in their mix not realizing its not totally organic, it also can be the water is not clean also. plus certain bug sprays or mold sprays could compromise your soil if it drips into it.

The Rev says not to use earth juice in tea's as well.. You don't use any bottled stuff on your soil ever, only in tea's, but he says not to use EJ in tea's either.. There is only certain bottled nutes he will use in a tea, fish ferts and some super blooms i believe.. He definitely says not to use the EJ in a tea though, he seems to think the ratio's of the organic acid's are too high.. One thing that really bugs me about the Rev is i have yet to see him get into some detail about the actual ratio's of organic acid's and what's safe and not safe.. From everything i have read he basically says organic acid's are bad, and then sometimes they are great, would be nice to know what the actual level's are.. I still believe his dope must be amazing though and would love to have a few of his stash jars.. After smoking some of the iranian grown TLO im starting to see what the Rev means when he says he won't even smoke stuff that isn't grown naturally.. When you actually see the difference in smoothness it tell's you there is some nastyness going on in your weed when you use synthetics, even the difference between TLO and Earth Juice grown/flushed weed is amazing..

 

[Afghi420]

Hows the higher amount of molasses work in force fading?

The fading of the leaves (yellowing) near end of harvest is that the plant has no nutes left in the soil or roots, so it draws the available N from the large leaves. That's why they yellow.
You want your plant to use all its nutrients it stores in it roots and leave, To ripen up per say. Like fruit on a tree.
What always works for me, is A good plain water flush at the beginning or close to the last 2 weeks of flowering.
I use cool water to emulate fall rains. I also lower my night time temps to emulate fall.
I want all resources of nutrients used up as soon as possible...no more feeding what so ever.
I use tlo, its a living soil... mainly if you continue to feed your soil, it will have nutes available for your plant.
my soil recipe will last my plant to end of harvest.
I'm sure other peeps do it different... I just know what works for me....but always open for new info....lol

You use tea's as well don't you? I got to experience a real TLO outdoor grow this time, my yields weren't nearly as good as they could be but it was my first time, and i know with organics fine tuning your setup is mainly about yields.. It's easy to grow TLo once you know how, but if you aren't giving them quite enough your yields wll lack for sure, so i kind of expeced my yields to not be too great. I just wanted to experience real organic grown weed, and im glad i did. Have you looked at that Bug Frass? They had a writeup about that stuff in Skunk and it sounded pretty good. They farm the bugs so that way they can feed the bugs a certain diet to produce the best frass possible, pretty cool stuff..

 

[Afghi420]

I don't use TLO specifically, I personally feel it's a bit gimmicky, though I totally appreciate that it's getting people to do things organically and in a more holistic style. I do, however, use soil food web methods and techniques, my soil and environment is very 'alive' and active.

The way the higher amount of molasses works for forcing a fade (or *any* sugar!) is that it causes an explosion of nitrogen-utilizing bacteria. They temporarily fix N as their population explodes. However, if you do it for too long, then when that population crashes (dies) you're going to be giving the plants too much N as they release it and make it available for uptake again.

I don't feed (outdoor) for the most part, it's just well amended soil. This year I've been experimenting with cover cropping the cannabis, but since I only had amaranth and red clover on hand I didn't quite create a guild (permaculture terminology). I should say that I do occasionally foliar, definitely treat proactively for future caterpillars (but this year I again want to do things a little differently and instead of spraying use insect barrier, should do some double duty for me in preventing weed seeds from getting stuck in my buds, I hate that shit).

In any event, the point is that my plants only really ever get water through the season, and I don't EVER FLUSH, EVER. Especially in organics, the concept is... the opposite of redundant. I'm wondering why, if you're using TLO/soil food web methods, you even need to flush. I haven't found it to be necessary, ever.

I prefer using lower amounts through the grow. If I have a plant that I feel is too green near the end of the run, then I will up the amount in a large way and force yellowing by causing an explosion of microbes.

This was my first TLO grow this year, and i didn't flush per say, i guess you just don't really give it a tea right before your going to harvest is all.. You shouldn't need to though form what i understand, the stuff i grew this year is the smoothest shit i've ever grown and possibly ever smoked, and the ash burn's to a perfect white ash every time, i just give a little blow on my bowl when im done and the ash flies away, really nice. After all those years of hacking my brains out when i smoked weed im kind of wondering wtf it was i was putting into my body all these years, because i don't hack like that, or even cough when i smoke these tlo buds. 2 of my plants this year had such a shitty yield i decided to switch back to bottle feeding at the last few weeks to see if i could throw some bulk onto them.. One thing i was worried about was the transistion from a pure tlo grow to bottle feeding with say Earth Juice and some other bottled nutes, what i was worried about happening was a mass die off of my microlife in which cse that would release a ton of Nitrogen right? And the last thing i wanted during the final couple weeks was a huge increase in Nitrogen.. That is how the plants get their nutriogen in tlo isnt it, the microlife that die off release the nitrogen to the plants?

 

[Bannacis]

The Rev says not to use earth juice in tea's as well.. You don't use any bottled stuff on your soil ever, only in tea's, but he says not to use EJ in tea's either.. There is only certain bottled nutes he will use in a tea, fish ferts and some super blooms i believe.. He definitely says not to use the EJ in a tea though, he seems to think the ratio's of the organic acid's are too high.. One thing that really bugs me about the Rev is i have yet to see him get into some detail about the actual ratio's of organic acid's and what's safe and not safe.. From everything i have read he basically says organic acid's are bad, and then sometimes they are great, would be nice to know what the actual level's are.. I still believe his dope must be amazing though and would love to have a few of his stash jars.. After smoking some of the iranian grown TLO im starting to see what the Rev means when he says he won't even smoke stuff that isn't grown naturally.. When you actually see the difference in smoothness it tell's you there is some nastyness going on in your weed when you use synthetics, even the difference between TLO and Earth Juice grown/flushed weed is amazing..

Dang my memory is whacked, your right about the Earth Juice...it was fish emulsion that I was thinking about. Duh!
Yea the rev only use a couple liquid nutes in his teas, and very little at that. Sometimes I think he purposely leaves some stuff out so he can cover at a later time, or that he's just so stoned he sometimes forgets...lol

 

[Bannacis]

You use tea's as well don't you? I got to experience a real TLO outdoor grow this time, my yields weren't nearly as good as they could be but it was my first time, and i know with organics fine tuning your setup is mainly about yields.. It's easy to grow TLo once you know how, but if you aren't giving them quite enough your yields wll lack for sure, so i kind of expeced my yields to not be too great. I just wanted to experience real organic grown weed, and im glad i did. Have you looked at that Bug Frass? They had a writeup about that stuff in Skunk and it sounded pretty good. They farm the bugs so that way they can feed the bugs a certain diet to produce the best frass possible, pretty cool stuff..

I use the teas for sure, and I switch em up so they aren't the same, You can also make up some spikes to put on the outer edge of you root ball, theres diff types of ingredients you can add (dry) just put a hole in the ground and fill it with a good bloom blend of nutes. put about 3-4 spikes per plant. Also there is the bottom of your hole...you can place a layer of super nutes for when the roots reach it they will blow up!!! plus I like to put mulch on top, sprinkle guano in with the mulch for a top feed.
The frass looks like it would be a killer addition.
I think that a little loss on quantity to gain on quality is well worth it. and if you recycle your soil and amend it for next grow it will only get better, plus as you learn your strain you will find what it likes and dislikes....that will increase your yields.

 

[Bannacis]

I don't use TLO specifically, I personally feel it's a bit gimmicky, though I totally appreciate that it's getting people to do things organically and in a more holistic style. I do, however, use soil food web methods and techniques, my soil and environment is very 'alive' and active.

The way the higher amount of molasses works for forcing a fade (or *any* sugar!) is that it causes an explosion of nitrogen-utilizing bacteria. They temporarily fix N as their population explodes. However, if you do it for too long, then when that population crashes (dies) you're going to be giving the plants too much N as they release it and make it available for uptake again.

I don't feed (outdoor) for the most part, it's just well amended soil. This year I've been experimenting with cover cropping the cannabis, but since I only had amaranth and red clover on hand I didn't quite create a guild (permaculture terminology). I should say that I do occasionally foliar, definitely treat proactively for future caterpillars (but this year I again want to do things a little differently and instead of spraying use insect barrier, should do some double duty for me in preventing weed seeds from getting stuck in my buds, I hate that shit).

In any event, the point is that my plants only really ever get water through the season, and I don't EVER FLUSH, EVER. Especially in organics, the concept is... the opposite of redundant. I'm wondering why, if you're using TLO/soil food web methods, you even need to flush. I haven't found it to be necessary, ever.

I prefer using lower amounts through the grow. If I have a plant that I feel is too green near the end of the run, then I will up the amount in a large way and force yellowing by causing an explosion of microbes.

I guess old habits are hard to break, in tlo you really don't need to flush, but I do just out of habit and of course I want to be sure... I get the best yellowing that way, the part of my flushing, I use cold water along with cold air, it all helps the ripening(fading)... I don't ever have to force...
And if your soil is living as you say, then that is TLO, you just don't do all the soil cooks and what your calling gimmicks. You're TLO baby.....:woot:
Not yellowing but, deff ripening..................

 

[Seamaiden]

DEFINITELY ripening, LOVE those colors. If only cannabis were a perennial... <sigh>

This was my first TLO grow this year, and i didn't flush per say, i guess you just don't really give it a tea right before your going to harvest is all.. You shouldn't need to though form what i understand, the stuff i grew this year is the smoothest shit i've ever grown and possibly ever smoked, and the ash burn's to a perfect white ash every time, i just give a little blow on my bowl when im done and the ash flies away, really nice. After all those years of hacking my brains out when i smoked weed im kind of wondering wtf it was i was putting into my body all these years, because i don't hack like that, or even cough when i smoke these tlo buds. 2 of my plants this year had such a shitty yield i decided to switch back to bottle feeding at the last few weeks to see if i could throw some bulk onto them.. One thing i was worried about was the transistion from a pure tlo grow to bottle feeding with say Earth Juice and some other bottled nutes, what i was worried about happening was a mass die off of my microlife in which cse that would release a ton of Nitrogen right? And the last thing i wanted during the final couple weeks was a huge increase in Nitrogen.. That is how the plants get their nutriogen in tlo isnt it, the microlife that die off release the nitrogen to the plants?

Yes, if you force a mass die-off, then you would be releasing a ton of N, and other minerals/nutrients as well. They fix a lot of stuff in their little bodies. There are more than one mechanism for plants to uptake or utilize food/nutrients from microbes. They die, they shit, and they exude (feed each other, so to speak). For example, when plants release sugars through their roots, it's with the express purpose (so far as we/I know at this point) of feeding nearby microbes in exchange for their exudates.


So, to go back to something like EJ, or even chemical salts, it actually can be done, but you really want to keep the NPK numbers LOW, like below 10% of anything, but most importantly P. High P levels are known to kill microbes very quickly, so that's where you really want to take care. Otherwise, you should be ok, and even better smokin' some Organic Love Buds.

 

[Bannacis]

Low numbers on the NPK is really important imo. I keep mine below 6 all of them. only on last feed or so will I put a 8 on the P. no higher.
maybe up k to balance the P some.
Less is more!!!!!

 

[Afghi420]

I use the teas for sure, and I switch em up so they aren't the same, You can also make up some spikes to put on the outer edge of you root ball, theres diff types of ingredients you can add (dry) just put a hole in the ground and fill it with a good bloom blend of nutes. put about 3-4 spikes per plant. Also there is the bottom of your hole...you can place a layer of super nutes for when the roots reach it they will blow up!!! plus I like to put mulch on top, sprinkle guano in with the mulch for a top feed.
The frass looks like it would be a killer addition.
I think that a little loss on quantity to gain on quality is well worth it. and if you recycle your soil and amend it for next grow it will only get better, plus as you learn your strain you will find what it likes and dislikes....that will increase your yields.

Well my plan for this fall was to FINALLY try and locate a killer strain, even though i have grown what i thought was going ot be some kille rstrains, LA Confidential, Black Domina... Anyways, this next grow i do im not screwin around anymore, i just want to grow something that i know without a doubt is good, maybe a good source of purple kush or something.. Even though that is not the high im after, i love the purple kush i tried in the past, very strong high almost like a weak hit of acid, not quite hallucinating but kind of fuzzy vision and some paranoia.. But the high im after is something similar to my old afghi i used to grow, a pure 5 hour couchlock, and i mean drooling on your shoes for hours, i like to be absolutely floored, and thats the kind of strain im after.. I can just imagine growing my old afghi in TLO, goddamn that would be some beautiful smoke. The old afghi had a high more like heroin then anything else, that euphoria you got from that smoke was something i've never experienced in any other smoke in 20+ years of daily smokinh.. Im trying to find that high again.. I heard that the Girl Scout Cookies has that kind of high, but who knows how strong it really is.. I read all these description's of strains and they all say couchlock, but from all the kushes and different known strains i've tried, they are pretty weak as far as couchlock is concerned, the old afghi was real deal couchlock. But seeing how it seems to be quite difficult to locate a strain like that again i think now i will just try to find something honestly good with a strong long lasting ( 3+ hours) stone.. Almost more important to me now is mold resistance, almost even more so then potentcy, which is strange fpor me to say, but after seeing numerous grow's either budrot or get powdery mildew it's time to stop fucking around. A friend has a lemon skunk that never ever see's a touch of powdery mildew, even when other plant's beside it do, that's what i need to find. I might even try going with more of a sativa to try and get the resistances, but im really not a sativa guy.. When i read descriptions of certain sativa hybrid's that say they are 'daytime' smoke, to me that just means 'weak dope'. I know there are sativa's out there with really long lasting high's and some that have a killer stone with couchlock, so maybe something like that would be good.. The Rev had one called Uncle Lucious Lemonade and he said it was pure drooling on your shoe's weed, so who knows.. Anyways, i need to go with something proven, it's too hard to rely on 1000 different people's descriptions, who know's what their tolerance level's are like, or even what kind of smoke they prefer.. Maybe a lot of people from Holland and places like that would actually prefer something lie the lemon skunk my buddy has, it has a good 2 hour high, doesn't floor you but just a nice level high, for people who tend to smoke in coffee shop's and social situation's perhaps the majority of them prefer that kind of weed. For me, i want the absolute strongest shit with the longest lasting high possibly, prefer something that put's you in a coma, once i find that i will grow it TLO style and be set.. ;) And yes i do want to stick with one strain for a few years once i find that strain, id prefer to work with one strain and really get to know that strain inside and out.. Sorry for the rambling but it really get's tiring spending hundred's of dollars on these so called wicked strains just to be dissapointed, and im not a complete amateur, i've done atleast 10 or so grow's myself, and i learn thing's every time. Im just now getting to the point where i feel comfortable that i know what im doing prety much, and understand the science of growing somewhat. Honestly i think the quality of strain's has really been lacking the past 15 years or so, there is good shit out there, real nice 2-3 hour stones, but there is also shit out there that trumps that shit by a factor of 10, smeel and potentcy wise.. ;) Take it easy..