Over 90% males from seed? Help needed from indoor growers

[sanvanalona]

could it simply be the luck of the draw? I have had this ratio before, but I must say that the few females that I had were keepers across the board, so who knows? I would think the light cycle may be the culprit, most males are hardier than females so my belief is that stress leads to more men, I guess we just like to stress out even in seed. Have you spoke to the vendor? Similar results for anyone?

 

[dizzlekush]

the meat...​

1. Level of nitrogen and potassium of the seedbed: A heightening of the standard level of nitrogen makes for more female cannabis plants originating from the weed seeds. A lowering of the nitrogen level shows more male cannabis plants. A heightening of the level of potassium tends to show more male marijuana plants, while a lowering of the potassium level shows more female marijuana plants. A combination of a higher nitrogen level for the period of a week or two and a lowering of the potassium level is recommended.
2. Humidity and moistness of the seedbed: a higher humidity makes for an increase in the number of female cannabis plants from weed seed, a lowering for an increase in male cannabis plants. The same is valid for the moistness of the seedbed.
3. Level of temperatures: lower temperatures make for a larger number of female marijuana plants, higher temperatures for more male marijuana plants.
4. Colour of light: more blue light makes for female cannabis plants from seed, more red light makes for more male cannabis plants.
5. Hours of daylight: few hours of daylight (e.g. 14 hours) makes for more female individuals, a long day (e.g. 18 hours) makes for more male cannabis plants.

@Seamaiden from the above possible things that effect sexual expression, the effects of nitrogen are the only that I've seen mentioned in academic literature that really effects sexual expression of Cannabis sativa L. I know for sure the statements about potassium are not true. I can't say much about the rest of the statements mentioned above except that the conditions that are supposed to opt for female plants will make your plants much less happy than the alternative and that I myself tried germinating seeds with all the above conditions as they were laid out in Jorge Cervantes book and had the worst results I've ever had germinating seeds, less than 50% survival rate and out of the ones that survived I didn't even get 50% females. Total flop.

TIME FACTOR IN UTILIZATION OF MINERAL NUTRIENTS BY HEMP
SISTER MARY ETIENNE TIBEAU

[From results of Experiments I and II]
The most striking contrast of these two experiments was between the plants supplied with a high-nitrogen (8N) solution and those supplied with a nitrogen-deficient (-N) solution. The plants of the former series (8N) produced an abundance of dark green foliage, and all plants had begun to differentiate into females before they wilted and died; the latter series (-N) had small, pale green leaves, and all plants were males.

Note: The group that had supra-optimal levels of K had ~75% females while the group that was K deficient was ~50/50, showing that K likely has no effect on sexual expression

Also plants are sexually determined at seed. You can change the sexual expression, but not the genetic material. So all seeds that are produced from plants that were genetically male that have been forced into female expression will have a 100 percent probability of being male. The opposite is how feminized seeds are made. Also plants could potentially revert back to their natural sexual expression half way through bloom, causing the infamous 'hermi'ing.

 

[squiggly]

To be honest, from a scientific standpoint this could make perfect sense depending how big the seed runs were.

Whether or not things have panned out in terms of the expected 50% ratio within the population is dependent on whether or not you have a representative sample of that population. There is an equation that governs this, and it depends intrinsically on population size. So we'd need more information about the seed run to be honest to rule out "luck of the draw".

Obviously I can't rule out that you've done something, but I am dubious in terms of jumping to that conclusion right out of the gate.

 

[caveman4.20]

We're they seed from the same parental stock same batch or various seeds same company? I don't know what else might help

 

[drbombay]

always more to experience and learn it seems. the difference between genetic code and expression of said code is mind boggling. sinse we only see the expression and visualize we see the code. how does a male hermi look? how far can this expression be driven is something that shows up in the next generation. not all pollen is fertile this can also favor males or females at the time of conception through seed production. such are the seasons of a farmer

 

[pugliese63]

I agree with Waayne. The interrupted light schedule would most likely be the culprit. I've dropped hundreds of beans. On the rare occasion I get an unfavorable male ratio. Roll of the dice. Most of the time I seem to get 4 to 7 females from about 10 to 12 beans. Not always. I usually drop about 40 to 60 beans.

I know there is a lot of interest in variable light schedules but I honestly can't see the benefit. Biorhythms in plants and humans have been established for millions of years. Altering this natural schedule would seem to be the equivalent of sleep deprivation, which is never healthy.

 

[kolah]

Nature vs, Nurture comes into play.

Natural Therapy's post is key....as is Waynes.

I have always started from seeds either in a window or my sun-room and sometimes use a bit of CFL's for additional lighting. I soak seeds in water for 24 hours and pop in beer cups filled Ocean Farm or Happy Frog soil. I always get over 50% females and last year I had some with a 80-90% ratio of fems.

The only crazy thing I do differently is sing (NA chant songs) while planting and I follow the moon phases to pick the specific time to plant.

I never have more than one dark cycle and keep things as close to nature as possible.

I think the gnats may have had a hand in over stressing them as well.

 

[Seamaiden]

Pugliese, the ONLY reason I did it this way was because I was doing the seeds in the same room as the cuttings, and I know this works just fine with cuttings that are going outside (their intended destination). My thinking was many-fold. I want economy, so I decided not to have both the flowering room and veg-area going. I was also starting up a bunch of my veggies at the same time and the peppers really need warmer temps to get going, thus the permanent 75*F condition. I figured also that they'd all be happiest together, one big green family. Finally, ease of tending is just easier when they're all in the same area and containers.

Sea as you know I been working that interrupted light schedule and I have change the lights on from twelve one run thirteen in another and fourteen Ina nother all with just one hour interruption PM me if you want exact numbers but ill say that I've ran seeds from a pool of over twenty moms with two common fathers... I have not ever gotten that low of a ratio of females but I will say this for me personally I LoVE that ratio for keepers and mothers... I believe that environment plays some role in gender outcome and the rest is predetermined in MY honest opinion those females you found are persistent females and not much are going to freak them out.... Those few females would be prized in my project and the males I would not like... Vice versa when I look for my fathers I choose from a low male high female ratio and in that scenario I would not use any of the females for breeding

Please do elaborate, and if you don't mind making it public I would appreciate it, for the general knowledge base and all.


I've been reading what Natural Therapy shared, and I am just not sure if it's that photoperiod I'm using or not, because according to the link they're saying that an 18/6 will lead to more males, whereas a 14/10 should lead to more females.

What you point out about that handful of females was indeed something I'd wondered about, so that's some encouragement. It's just that five is an awfully small group from which to find a single keeper, I'm sure you can dig that.

My vote is genetic and luck of the draw. I have done 20-30 got 80+% males then did another and ratio was 40/60. 60% female. Same conditions and such. Pop more if you got them.

I've grown out too much of Loran's gear to believe that it's genetic. I do indeed have more beanage, though! But, now that it's Cinco de Mayo, I can do them 100% outside, though a rather late start.

@Seamaiden from the above possible things that effect sexual expression, the effects of nitrogen are the only that I've seen mentioned in academic literature that really effects sexual expression of Cannabis sativa L. I know for sure the statements about potassium are not true. I can't say much about the rest of the statements mentioned above except that the conditions that are supposed to opt for female plants will make your plants much less happy than the alternative and that I myself tried germinating seeds with all the above conditions as they were laid out in Jorge Cervantes book and had the worst results I've ever had germinating seeds, less than 50% survival rate and out of the ones that survived I didn't even get 50% females. Total flop.

Note: The group that had supra-optimal levels of K had ~75% females while the group that was K deficient was ~50/50, showing that K likely has no effect on sexual expression

Also plants are sexually determined at seed. You can change the sexual expression, but not the genetic material. So all seeds that are produced from plants that were genetically male that have been forced into female expression will have a 100 percent probability of being male. The opposite is how feminized seeds are made. Also plants could potentially revert back to their natural sexual expression half way through bloom, causing the infamous 'hermi'ing.

Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to read and post. I've only done a couple of feeds, so I'll have to double-check the media I purchased to see what kind of numbers it runs, but it's not a pre-fertilized product, I got it because it would dovetail into organic production with no hiccups. I've only really fed hydrolized fish (meal form), and some kelp extract, a couple of low nutrient teas and that's IT. However... there was a point at which they were a bit too pale green to my eye, they appeared to be N-. ?? That was right before April 15th, and I know that date because we left for a SoCal vacation on that day. So I fed them a stronger solution of hydrolized fish.

To be honest, from a scientific standpoint this could make perfect sense depending how big the seed runs were.

Whether or not things have panned out in terms of the expected 50% ratio within the population is dependent on whether or not you have a representative sample of that population. There is an equation that governs this, and it depends intrinsically on population size. So we'd need more information about the seed run to be honest to rule out "luck of the draw".

Obviously I can't rule out that you've done something, but I am dubious in terms of jumping to that conclusion right out of the gate.

My inclination to to blame myself before anything else, because I know that if you just leave 'em be, they tend to just grow out fine. My volunteer from under the deck is a great example, I didn't discover her until she was almost 2' tall and already proclaiming to the world that she was a GIRL. Also, a lot of this is Loran's gear, and my usual male:female ratios with his gear is more like 70%+. One run I got NO males. But, again, these have all been using my usual method of starting and keeping them outside. I wanted to get a better head start than using that method usually allows, since we have zoning restrictions and I can only do a total of 24 plants. I'll do a count, I did lose a handful of seedlings to the fungus gnats (another stressor, yes?).

Ok, off to do a count and get some of these pix uploaded for y'all.

Edit* I started 60 seeds total, from a variety of breeders. Pix coming.

 

[Seamaiden]

Hotay. Pix.

 

[waayne]

E. Galoch found that cytokinin is important for the sexual expession of hemp:
"Transition of female and male hemp plants from the vegetative to the generative phase is associated with a rise in cytokinin level while that of male inflorescences proceeds at a decreasing cytokinin level. The activity of cytokinins apparently is associated with an enhancement of the female tendency..." (73)
Gibberellin will inhibit the formation of flowers on cannabis, but sometimes it will otherwise cause the growth of fertile female flowers on genetically male plants. Silver nitrate or cobalt chloride causes masculinization of flowers of female hemp, possibly due to blockage of ethylene synthesis. High levels of N salts --- and long photoperiods --- have a masculinizing effect on hemp.(74-76)
According to K. Conrad, there are sex-linked differences of the auxin content in male and female hemp plants:
"During blossoming the vegetative parts of the males contain more auxin than those of the females. In the dying leaves and stems a remarkable increase of auxin can be observed." (77)
J. Heslop-Harrison studied auxin and sexuality in Cannabis:
"Dioecious hemp plants were grown to an age of 20 days in a day-length of 21-22 hours, then given an inductive treatment of ten 8-hour days to initiate flowering. After return to long days and during the period of differentiation of flower buds, a total of 0.5 gr lanolin paste containing 0.5% NapthaleneAcetic Acid (NAA) was applied to leaves at the 3rd and 4th nodes. In genetically male plants, female plants were subsequently formed in sites which would normally be occupied by males, a result which appears to be regulated by the level of native auxin in the vicinity of meristems during the period of differentiation of flower primordia. Secondary effect of auxin treatment were evident in an over-all reduction in intensity of heteroblastic development, the trend towards a reduction of leaf lobing and serration which normally accompanies plants passing through a period of flowering than in untreated controls." (78)
Nitrogen fertilizers masculinize the phenotype by stimulating the formation of male flowers. The proportion, number and degree of monoecious plants increases with increasing N, and the total N content is always higher in monoecious individuals than it is in females. (79)
Treatment of hempseed with ethylene gas will increase the resulting number of female plants by about 50%. Ethylene is produced by certain plants (i.e., bananas, cucumbers and melons), and these can be used to treat hempseed in a simple manner. About two weeks before you plan to sprout the seeds, place them in a paper bag or envelope and put that in a plastic bag with the peels of a ripening banana or cucumber. Replace the peels after a couple of days, and change the bags to prevent mold.
Hempseed can be feminized while they are forming on the plant. Fruit peels are spread around the area for two weeks before the plants enter the flowering phase. Remove the skins when the plants begin to flower. Otherwise, treatment with Etephon will accomplish the same effect.
When hempseed is treated with the female hormone estrogen, percentage of females that are produced will increase by about 10%. Dissolve a birth control pill in water and soak the seeds overnight in the solution. After the initial soaking, continue to treat the seeds by sprouting them on a paper towel soaked in the solution. (80)
A.I. Zhatov tested the effects of ethrel on hemp:
"Treatment of hemp plants with an aqueous solution of ethrel changed the ratio of male to female flowers. The greatest effect was observed when plants were treated during flowering of male flowers." (81)
Electricity also can change the sexual expression of cannabis; B.R. Lazarenko and I.B. Gorbatovskaya reported:
"Under the influence of the electrical current, the numerical proportions between hemp plants of different sexes was changed by comparison with the control to give an increase of female plants by 20-25%... The characteristics acquired by the plants in electrically treated soils are transmitted by inheritance to the third generation..." [emphasis added] (82)
Photoperiodism is a most useful tool with which to control the sexual expression of cannabis. For example, J. Limberk made a careful study of lighttime on the sexual index of hemp, and reported thus:
"Male plants usually flowered earlier than female. Female plants flowered only when the period of daylight was shorter than 14 hours; male plants flowered even when the day was longer than 14 hours. Reduction of light intensity in the first stages of plant development lead to increases of female plants by 4.3%. Intersexual plants (22-30% of the total) were present in conditions of 11-13 hours light per day. Grafting of plants did not change sex."

Seamaiden I posted this just to show how much contradictory information is
available in regards to the sexual expression of Cannabis plants....


With little effort I seem to be able to find quite a bit of totally contradictory information in this regard,whether it's photo period,N levels, temps,etc.......


What I find frustrating is that most of these studies were done decades ago with Hemp ,which is not exactly what most of us are propagating nowdays....

Indoor cultivation is just unnatural and somewhat stressful to most plants.....

I'm willing to bet that if you start the exact same genetics outdoors now you will have a much better male /female ratio.......

 

[Seamaiden]

Me, too, waayne, me, too. I'll still be reassessing how I do things inside, because my goal is to be like my big brothers, Blaze, et alia, and really have that good head start on the season when it comes time.

 

[caveman4.20]

Nature vs, Nurture comes into play.

Natural Therapy's post is key....as is Waynes.

I have always started from seeds either in a window or my sun-room and sometimes use a bit of CFL's for additional lighting. I soak seeds in water for 24 hours and pop in beer cups filled Ocean Farm or Happy Frog soil. I always get over 50% females and last year I had some with a 80-90% ratio of fems.

The only crazy thing I do differently is sing (NA chant songs) while planting and I follow the moon phases to pick the specific time to plant.

I never have more than one dark cycle and keep things as close to nature as possible.

I think the gnats may have had a hand in over stressing them as well.

You ever keep track of ratio m/f from south window in feb vs march vs april ;^)

 

[Blaze]

I think you may have have gotten unlucky Sea. Environmental factors can cause hermies but it is highly unlikely that it can influence sex ratios in such a manner. From my understanding of biology and genetics I just do not see how it is possible for an entire chromosome to change because of environment, that is a very radical genetic shift. I have seen evidence that the environment which the mother plant forms the seeds in may influence sex ratios. It is very odd you got so many males with multiple strains though which does seem to indicate it was something in the environment. You never know though, I have had batches of seeds that were over 90% male. The original Mendo Pineapple seeds I have are always 90-95% male, and the F2 I made with them also had a similarly skewed sex ratio which makes me wonder if it is a trait that can be passed down.

Sometimes you really just do get that unlucky though. I remember about 5 years ago I had a whole bunch of DJ Short Grape Krush seeds I had cracked. We had a neighbor that was in need of plants early in the season, so we split the batch of seedlings down the middle (30 plants total) before they were sexed expecting that we would both get about half females. Well, the neighbor ended up with ALL females and we ended up with 14 males and 1 female. I don't give out unsexed seedlings anymore.

In general I do not like starting seeds inside that will be grown outside. It always seems to be more problematic. Our seedlings are always started and grown under natural light from day one.

 

[caveman4.20]

With interrupted veg ive only done one interruption.....why the two interruptions

 

[caveman4.20]

I dig the big number! I also dig survival of the fittest. I will continue the interrupted veg sched, With one interruption. I read that the sample was from various parentage so it seems to have been luck of the draw

 

[Seamaiden]

I think you may have have gotten unlucky Sea. Environmental factors can cause hermies but it is highly unlikely that it can influence sex ratios in such a manner. From my understanding of biology and genetics I just do not see how it is possible for an entire chromosome to change because of environment, that is a very radical genetic shift. I have seen evidence that the environment which the mother plant forms the seeds in may influence sex ratios. It is very odd you got so many males with multiple strains though which does seem to indicate it was something in the environment. You never know though, I have had batches of seeds that were over 90% male. The original Mendo Pineapple seeds I have are always 90-95% male, and the F2 I made with them also had a similarly skewed sex ratio which makes me wonder if it is a trait that can be passed down.

Sometimes you really just do get that unlucky though. I remember about 5 years ago I had a whole bunch of DJ Short Grape Krush seeds I had cracked. We had a neighbor that was in need of plants early in the season, so we split the batch of seedlings down the middle (30 plants total) before they were sexed expecting that we would both get about half females. Well, the neighbor ended up with ALL females and we ended up with 14 males and 1 female. I don't give out unsexed seedlings anymore.

In general I do not like starting seeds inside that will be grown outside. It always seems to be more problematic. Our seedlings are always started and grown under natural light from day one.

I appreciate your response and was hoping you would respond, because I know you start seeds annually but we haven't discussed how you handle them. Right now, I'm still of a mind that my environment, or something *I* have done, has caused this to occur. It's more my gut than anything, perhaps it's my tendency to blame myself if I don't understand what's happened, but there it is. One day, someday, I may have a greenhouse that will allow me to get my seeds started while remaining fully in compliance.

With interrupted veg ive only done one interruption.....why the two interruptions

It's just how I started doing it after a friend mutual to Blaze and I told me how he'd been doing it. This year is the first year I've changed it to one interruption.

I went through them again, because until they've actually dropped their balls I'm not always 100% certain, and I am surprised, but I found one more girl. So, out of 60 starts, that's 6 females.

 

[sixstring]

You mention in your first post that a bunch of veggie seeds didnt make it as well.im not familiar with your soil but is it possible it might be contaminated? Was there any chemicals you used on the gnats? Those sre the first things that popped into my head. Think thats the worst ratio I ever heard of, I would think its chemical related.

 

[Seamaiden]

I used (this is a long list) for the gnats:

Mosquito dunks
emulsified Neem drenches
Neem meal and powder top-dressing
diatomaceous earth top-dressing
Gnatrol
DiPel (another Bt)
Plant essential oils
cinnamon top-dressing
nematodes
Buncha microbe teas
umm.... I know there's other stuff to add to the list, but now I'm drawing a blank. The gnat larvae ate a few of the seeds before they even emerged, and my peas are dying off one by one, so I have to start another batch.

It's possible the soil was contaminated, but with what I wouldn't know. That is a terrible ratio, ain't it?!

 

[caveman4.20]

Label those fems and pay attention to them I have a feeling they are very special

 

[organicozarks]

I used (this is a long list) for the gnats:

Mosquito dunks
emulsified Neem drenches
Neem meal and powder top-dressing
diatomaceous earth top-dressing
Gnatrol
DiPel (another Bt)
Plant essential oils
cinnamon top-dressing
nematodes
Buncha microbe teas
umm.... I know there's other stuff to add to the list, but now I'm drawing a blank. The gnat larvae ate a few of the seeds before they even emerged, and my peas are dying off one by one, so I have to start another batch.

It's possible the soil was contaminated, but with what I wouldn't know. That is a terrible ratio, ain't it?!

I have fungus gnats extremely bad. Here the only way to keep them down is nematodes. The problem I have had recently is getting viable nematodes to my mail box. It got to the point where half of them were viable. So I started to "branch out".(horrible pun I know, but fuck it) So now I use a neem tea from bubbled neem cake once per week, and I also use Dr bronners sprayed once per week. If you have Fungus gnats real bad then bubble up a 1 cup of neem cake, 1/2 cup kelp meal, 1/2 cup alfalfa, in a 5 gallon bucket, and apply weekly. Twice a week if you wish. Now this is a double strength batch. Normally you only use 1/2 cup neem cake, but if you have them bad then you got to double up. This will knock them down to almost nothing. Soil drench, and foliar feed. I had similar issues when I had a few seed runs that did nothing because the gnat larvae wanted them for themselves. I also had out of wack male/female ratios.

The post about getting more females based off of nute regime, and environment is spot on. I don't know about following it to a "T", but if you go in that direction it will make a difference.

I feel like your environment did this. The gnats being a part of that environment. As shitty as it is as long as you learn something form it then it was not a waste of time.

In 5 years will it matter?:)

I ask myself this about shit that seems to be a big deal at the time. I have yet to answer yes.