Over 90% males from seed? Help needed from indoor growers

[Seamaiden]

In a few months it won't matter, and yes, it absolutely IS a learning experience. As I mentioned to someone else previously, what would I have learned if I had simply continued doing things the exact same way? I have learned to expect the unexpected when changing things up, and then some. I'm fortunate, I have a few cuttings already gifted, one a mother whose smoke I've sampled that I loved, and have more seeds on hand than I can count, so plenty still to choose from should I feel the need to pop more beans just yet.

The big deal was the home invasion robbery, I'm still feeling the effects of it today, though decidedly not as badly as I was in previous months. I'd still like to have last year's crop, but that's not gonna happen. So off I go to grow again! Hopefully not a buncha dudes. ;)

 

[caveman4.20]

Right on Sea youll bounce back and please keep us tuned in those elite few females who did not submit to whatever manipulation that caused this!

 

[homebrew420]

Genetic. There is no reason to belive that canabis sex is determined by anything other than dna.
Though not scientific I have tried all sorts of things to help manipulate to high fem ratio. Up until recently never more than 20 but never seemed to be any type of consistancy.
Sea you are an informed grower with many a skill to boot, this is highly unlikely you or other enviro factors played a role. Imho.
Also the factors given for higher fem ratio makes no sense to me. It would suggest that the dna in fem seeds is somehow determined or swayed by enviro.
I don't think this is the case and should not be considered as viable for redular seeds either.
You will get it on the next one... or this one.

Great luck seamaiden

 

[Trillionsoatoms]

: : odds

 

[NaturalTherapy]

Been doing more research on this since I've experienced consistent high male ratios with one particular seed strain I made- but not others

I am aware cannabis is not (ideally) a gynodioecious, but some of the info seems relevant
http://sites.bio.indiana.edu/~delphlab/Delph and Carroll.pdf

Speculation on factors of elevation


I'm still reading this stuff, but it has the best info so far- jump to chapter 17 for specific discussion of seed sex ratios
http://books.google.com/books?id=Pj7qnU-cF6YC&pg=PA337&lpg=PA337&dq=seeds determine sex&source=bl&ots=H8ub_6WxVR&sig=nUgmDV3W_P8MwIw25e2_CAENS8Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iDiiUfLxB4WzywHj2oG4Dw&ved=0CHMQ6AEwCDhG#v=onepage&q=seeds determine sex&f=false


Can anyone point me to some source or study that shows cannabis seeds sex isn't determined until 3-4 weeks following germination?

 

[vaporedout]

the meat...​

Level of nitrogen and potassium of the seedbed.​

thats what i was always told.... if you want females, bump up the N. ive always had a decent FtoM rate

 

[NaturalTherapy]

It seems clear there is a general rule of .5 m/f ratios throughout most of the plant kingdom with some exceptions noted in the links to texts I offered- so this is more about the anomalies and what causes them.....I guess I'm more interested in any studies done to determine how parent plants affect their offspring, as opposed to suggestions for germination medium and environmental factors.

My mind is speculating about a correlation to the state of the parents at the time of pollination or seed production that leads to an increase in male or female seed. This goes against current thinking since most everyone seems to believe seed sex is determined solely by environmental factors- 3 to 4 weeks following germination...

Feminized seeds alone should be sufficient evidence that environment is not the sole contributing factor to this determination. I've also read Neville suggest reversing male plants and pollinating them- to obtain all male seeds.

I have a strain I made that is exhibiting 90% male ratios, and has done so every time I've opened more of the seeds... I have other crosses I'm testing now to see if it is a trait passed on by the common fathers (2 "brother" plants). Another future project could be to pollinate the same mother with another male and test the ratio of those seeds to determine if it is a trait passed on my mom. Yet Another project could be to make F2 progeny of this batch I see 90% males from to determine if they too express imbalanced sex ratios.

I am leaning toward the state of the parent plants being a major contributing factor to seeds not expressing 50/50 male/female ratios...

Another friend offered this suggestion:

I read somewhere that the more stable a gene pool is, the more females in the pool. Since it only takes one or two males to pollinate a few thousand plants in a natural setting, and the plant is already expressing the best traits through natural selection, the mom knows it's more productive at that point to make more girls. Less males will keep the strain less variant. IDK... The theory does make sense somewhat, but lots of things make sense that aren't true.. ​

Not sure, but I am having fun reading plant research this morning

 

[Blaze]

I am leaning toward the state of the parent plants being a major contributing factor to seeds not expressing 50/50 male/female ratios...

Yup - and there is scientific evidence to back that up too unlike most of the other sex ratio claims. Environment of the seedlings will influence sex ratios about as much as it would influence the sex of a baby from a pregnant woman sitting next to a fireplace. Unless cannabis operates differently at a basic biological level than all other lifeforms on the planet it is impossible for sex ratios to be influence in such a manner as most growers claim. An entire chromosome changing after contraception, or materializing out of thin air, 4-5 weeks after the seed germinates is just not possible, genetics do not work that way as far as I understand. That is a MAJOR genetic shift, far beyond anything that has been observed as a result of environmental factors.

Your theory on the ratio being passed on from the mom is sound. As I mentioned my Mendo Pineapple seeds are always 90% males. The F2's I made expressed the same skewed ratio every single time. Makes me think you are probably on to something here.

 

[caveman4.20]

Interesting reads....yo Sea any updates on the few fem of that bunch

 

[NaturalTherapy]

More interesting reading.... not exactly about plant sex but still interesting information... Basically what I'm finding is there is desperate need for real cannabis research, since cannabis is rather irregular in the plant kingdom

 

[Seamaiden]

Interesting reads....yo Sea any updates on the few fem of that bunch

Yeah, they're going pretty strong. I had more beans of all lines except one, so I went ahead and popped them, they've already sexed (why the early start? seriously) and I've just about got my limit of girls now. Got my usual 60/40 rate, and my chickens got the rest!

Based on how this has all gone down, I feel there must be a whole slew of factors that go into how this plant expresses sex. I feel it's trite to say it's the genetics (not to mention, due to the wide variety of sources for this run, and the fact that I've just run too much of Loran's gear to know that it's not prone to this sort of thing) absolutely. So right now I'm thinking we've got a combination of factors, not the least of which must be environmental. When I say 'environment' I'm also including media and nutrition here, along with lighting, temps, RH, stress, etc, etc. While it may be 'set' genetically, how it expresses is another thing entirely.

 

[NaturalTherapy]

Seems to me it is no stretch of the imagination to imagine male expression as a result of environment in gynodioecious plants - so I suppose that is my question: Is cannabis dioecious or gynodioecious

It almost seems that expression itself (predominately asexual vs intersex) is a result of environment... as though environment over generations turned it one way or the other... or in other words... Subtropical varieties display much more intersex (gynodioecious) due to the nature of their natural growing environment, than does landrace genetics common to Afghanistan, for example...

I'm curious whether one can manipulate a parent plant into consistently producing 90% female seed without going totally feminized... and vice versa.

 

[caveman4.20]

These plants are so diverse and i would not be surprised if you find both of the above stated by natural therapy,
Supposeably plants that i grew out which were clones shared with friends grew str8 male for this unkown farmer... I said it was imposible til about four years ago when i seen it for my own eyes.... These plants are so ecological that they morph and even mutate... Im also seeing that some are even so resilient to mutate back to original state and some plants dont...

My winded version of there is no black and white with cannabis and a million shades of grey!


P.s
There might be bugs on some of you mugs but there aint no bugs me....
Peace and chicken grease!

 

[caveman4.20]

Yeah, they're going pretty strong. I had more beans of all lines except one, so I went ahead and popped them, they've already sexed (why the early start? seriously) and I've just about got my limit of girls now. Got my usual 60/40 rate, and my chickens got the rest!

Based on how this has all gone down, I feel there must be a whole slew of factors that go into how this plant expresses sex. I feel it's trite to say it's the genetics (not to mention, due to the wide variety of sources for this run, and the fact that I've just run too much of Loran's gear to know that it's not prone to this sort of thing) absolutely. So right now I'm thinking we've got a combination of factors, not the least of which must be environmental. When I say 'environment' I'm also including media and nutrition here, along with lighting, temps, RH, stress, etc, etc. While it may be 'set' genetically, how it expresses is another thing entirely.

Seamaiden do you breed much? I dont remember reading if you dont you should or better put i would with those low ratio females.... Just my two cents

 

[caveman4.20]

More interesting reading.... not exactly about plant sex but still interesting information... Basically what I'm finding is there is desperate need for real cannabis research, since cannabis is rather irregular in the plant kingdom
View attachment 316426

After rereading and tereading this i hit the dictionary and the simplest interpetation i can come up with reminds me of the plants ability to pack in nutrients into the seed and whats left is packed into calyx.... So i think some plants are capable of pumpimg out the
The oil without limit and some have limit but thats just a peek into the rabbit whole...

 

[caveman4.20]

So the next pollen chuck i do ill use a ton of pollen the first few days of pollenation then spray water to wreak havoc on pollen to minimize seed production hopefully that utilizes survival of the fittest for pollen without having too many seeds so plant can have plenty of what each seed neeeds sent to them in abundance without having to share.... And ill work with whatever M/F ratio GOD gives me

 

[Seamaiden]

Seamaiden do you breed much? I dont remember reading if you dont you should or better put i would with those low ratio females.... Just my two cents

No, I don't breed. One year I tried to make the seed run year, and I tore out my ACL completely. Haven't been able to think beyond "I have no business trying to make seeds." I will be keeping cuttings from these girls, though.

 

[Blaze]

No, I don't breed. One year I tried to make the seed run year, and I tore out my ACL completely. Haven't been able to think beyond "I have no business trying to make seeds." I will be keeping cuttings from these girls, though.

You should go for it Sea, smaller hobby breeders are often the source of some of the best genetics. I have been thoroughly disappointed with almost all of the strains I have tried over the years that came from seed companies and the supposed 'professionals'. All the best genetics in my collection at this point have come either from private individuals, locals here in Mendo, or from my own breeding projects.

 

[caveman4.20]

Amen

 

[Seamaiden]

You should go for it Sea, smaller hobby breeders are often the source of some of the best genetics. I have been thoroughly disappointed with almost all of the strains I have tried over the years that came from seed companies and the supposed 'professionals'. All the best genetics in my collection at this point have come either from private individuals, locals here in Mendo, or from my own breeding projects.

Maybe in the future, but it's not in the cards for me just yet. I have to learn how to remain in an upright position for the whole year, first!
(The ankle should be healed up great by next month.)