over nuteing

[mmmdankbuds420]

Hello fellow growers! :) I have a quick question but first let me paint a picture for you. This is my first grow and I'm just starting my second week of flower. I know that you can go higher than recommended amount of nutes for watering and once you start to see nutes burn or wilting leaves back off the dose because you went to much. And i did this earlier in the grow about 2 weeks into veg. But as soon as i was around 1 teaspoon above recomended dose i got the burn and wilting. And so the position I am in now is I'm going well over a teaspoon of recommeneded dose and I'm using nutes with every watering since I began flowering and I water at least 4-6 times a week. I haven't noticed any signs of over nursing and I want to keep upping my nutes levels but before I do my big question is: can I be over nuteing and doing damage to the plant and not being able to see it? Or if there's no physical signs of stress then I can continue upping it?
I can kind of understand how the tolerance is a lot larger now since the plants have grown from less than a foot to around three feet and I also used ocean forest from fox farm for the transplant and this soil is already packed with plenty of nutes. I know I rambled 15 times longer than neccesary and I apologize, but I greatly appreciate everybody for taking the time to reply to my question. Thanks guys.

Oh and I use the full line of fox farm and I add MOAB for flowering. Also if anybody could recommend to me any threads on here that are excellent nutes guides I would deeply appreciate it. :)

 

[Oregon Panda]

Take a pic. Maybe you cant see it but someone else can? I don't think your over doing it, but you never really know if you dont really know, right?

Your already a 3rd or 4th way through flowering without dying, to burn and stunt at this stage will be detrimental to your yields for certain. The risk is greater than the reward, because at some point your going to over do it. If you just chilled right where your at you could be lookin at making it to the end without any problem, a grand accoplishment for a first grow.

Post some pics though.

 

[Natural]

In soil..try to keep in mind that it is much more difficult to flush your plants in the end..especially if you are using any synthetics/salts and especially indoor gardens. Over the years I've learned to feed the plants what they need to keep them happy instead of giving them all they can handle. Best to keep track of your feed schedule for specific strains..some eat well..some don't. You'll know more by how the final product burns and tastes than whether they look to be healthy. Of course we want to give them all they need..but plants could look great and still have a surplus of nutes in the soil when it comes time to flush.

 

[sixstring]

Why are you using a tsp more then the recommended dose? Do you have tds/ppm meter and if so what is the reading? Pics are a huge help.

 

[mmmdankbuds420]

Oregon panda - thanks for the advice, I'll get some pics up later this evening for you guys to do scope out and let me know if you see anything.
Natural - I was planning on using something like sledge hammer to help when I need to flush. Maybe I just start using that sooner than expected to compensate for my high use of nutes? I was wondering if you could give me a couple example of flavor and burning issues with the dried bud when its over nutes? Just for reference later? Thanks a lot for the input.
Six string - I don't bother using a ppm meter or even checking ppm. On a different thread I was asking about EC and PPM and their importance in a grow and this is what I was told by Seamaiden, a moderator on this site so I definitely trust what I'm told.

"It's pointlessness, or lack thereof, has a lot more to do with how you're growing your plants than anything else. It is basically a measure of molecule (salts--look up chemical definition of salts, it is *not* just sodium, or sodium chloride) density in a solution; i.e. strength of feed.
If you're growing with soluble NPK-type fertilizers, aka chemical salt fertilizers, you need to know EC. PPM is simply a derivation and conversion of EC, as is TDS. Since both metrics are based on EC, it's really easier to learn how to take readings as EC instead of using conversions.
If you're growing using organic soil food web methods, then EC isn't an accurate measure, being as many organic molecules have more or less or even NO conductivity, they cannot be accurately measured. This is where you have to go back to the old volumetric measure (a tablespoon of this, a cup of that)."

Any other input on that subject would as well be much appreciated though. I'm always down to learn something possibly beneficial :) but I'll definitely get some pics up this evening.

Thanks a lot everybody. Its much appreciated.

 

[sky high]

With over fertilizing.....things are either gonna go real good...or real bad. My experience has shown the latter to be more commonplace.....and when things go bad, it's a huge setback, if not a game ender altogether.

Folks can dance around the science....but having SOME sort of idea that yer setting at 3500 ppm...give er take a thousand or so either way :eek: with a ppm meter is better than no reading at all because someone said ppm readings aren't accurate enough/etc..etc..etc.. I mean..EC or ppm...there's a point where it doesn't matter WTF the reading is if it is far too high and toxicity is imminent.


Many folks use the "less is more" theory and most will tell you that more fert rarely means more yield unless all other conditions are met/dialed in. More than likely, those peeps you see pushin it hard til the edges burn are not on their first grow and have a feel for how to get there safely and with beneficial results time and time again rather than just upping the doses across the board/through the entire grow and hopin it goes well. (Case in point...you are using MOAB at week 2?)
I hope it goes well for ya but I honestly think yer heading for disaster if you keep this up. Good luck!

 

[mmmdankbuds420]

Sky high - could you explain to me how ppm is measured? Like do you just check parts per million of solids to liquids, or what exactly is each so called "part"? How do i know if im measuring parts per million of the grow big? Or parts per million of tiger bloom? Or for big bud? Or is it just measure ppm of the NPK? This is stuff that i havent been able to figure out and i actually have made an effort as far as researching the subject with no avail. I would so so so greatly appreciate it if you were able to fill me in on that one. And I just started week 2 of flowering today and am planning on discontinuing the use of MOAB until my last 2 or three weeks of flowering as recommended from manufacturer. This is my first grow and I'm still learning, but I don't feel as though I am like the kind of grower you are referencing, "upping doses across the board". I feel like I am doing things reasonably and responsibly, things just seemed to high for me not to notice anything on the plants. Simply looking for a little bit of generous critism. Good lookin out though. Thanks a lot, pics in a few minutes to show what I've got goin on.

 

[Natural]

Natural - I was planning on using something like sledge hammer to help when I need to flush. Maybe I just start using that sooner than expected to compensate for my high use of nutes? I was wondering if you could give me a couple example of flavor and burning issues with the dried bud when its over nutes? Just for reference later? Thanks a lot for the input.


Thanks a lot everybody. Its much appreciated.

Use soil grows to your benefit...lean towards organics as much as possible. Pretty much all bottled nutes have chem ferts in them to some degree..even if labeled as organic..they most likely are chem/organic...and that's ok...but your going to get some salt build up in the root zone. To what degree depends on how hungry your plant pheno is.
My method is to feed nutes and then the next 2 times they get pure water. I inoculate the soil from the get-go with beneficials and then once every 2 weeks I give them molasses in one of the "water feeds". This helps the population of beneficials continue and thrive.
Now..if you use mostly chem ferts it is also important to alternate feeding and watering so the root zone doesn't get too much salt build-up and gives the plants a chance to use the food they have been given.
Some examples of over-nuted buds..would be mostly a chem taste when smoking..perhaps a harshness to the smoke and it will not burn well or even..like a joint won't stay lit. Extremely over-nuted smoke will crackle and pop..this is a sign of poor commercial product. We want our smoke to burn well and have a clean taste..so all the subtleties can be enjoyed.
I don't necessarily recommend flushing too soon..especially hungry strains as an early fade will affect you quality. I think if you wanna use a flushing agent..just do it before your normal 2 last weeks of pure water flush. If you wanna flush in the middle of flower or if you have a tray or similar where you can achieve run-off..it would be more helpful to use a 1/4 strength nute mix. This mix works better to help grab accumulated salts better than just pure water. Most soil growers are not set up to achieve major run-off..so a lighter feeding program coupled with alternating water feeds is how we indoor soil guys avoid over-nuting.
Typically people over-nute and use a list of boosters..ignitors..hormones..etc...because they are trying to achieve yield. This is a misnomer..a healthy plant will yield just as much or better than an over fed plant. Yield is in the consistent care and environment..and mostly genetics.
If you find you have a bad tasting/burning product after you have cured for the 3 weeks or so...the only fix you can perform is to let them cure much longer..after a time the flavor will improve as well as the burn. It might not ever get 100% perfect, but always improves over a more lengthy cure.

 

[mmmdankbuds420]

Natural - thank you so much. You definitely Know your stuff. I hope in the future I might be able to PM you if I ever have any troubleshooting problems? I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out, im definitely soaking up what your watering. :) still workin on those pictures but its a pain uploading with my phone, may take a little bit.

 

[mmmdankbuds420]

P.S. Thanks again! I really appreciate you Sharing some of your own personal, in garden techniques.

 

[sky high]

Natural covers it well/honestly.

To measure EC >or< ppm...yer gonna need to buy a digital pen that reads one...or the other...or both. Most folks will check their irrigation run off coming out the bottom of the pot to get an >approximate< idea where they are at. There are standard ways to do it....I'm sure....but as I said before... a reading that isn't 100% accurate but is close is better than none at all. I had a meter once that wasn't able to be calibrated.....and probably wasn't accurate....but if I stuck it in the water and it >flashed< it meant it (NPK/salt level) was over 2000ppm (the top reading on the pen)......aka.....DANGER.

Didn't mean to harsh on ya if ya took it that way. Just not wanting to see you follow so many others who have said "It's rockin.... and a few days later "WTF happened? WHY is my plant DEAD?" Either way....in the end, you gotta grow skin at the same time as weed if yer gonna play online. LOL. :D Good luck........

 

[mmmdankbuds420]

Sky high - So just so I don't distort any facts here, the "parts" in parts per million is referring to NPK as a whole compared to the water? And if you were to check the run off and it were in the danger zone above the 2000, would you just flush the plant lightly or what's done is done and don't do it again kind of a thing?

I never took anything personal or anything, Im new on here and a new grower, just didn't want people thinkin I was just some dumbass kid ya know? Lol. But I appreciate you, and my other new friends, taking time to help teach me all this stuff which by now is just basic to you guys. Someday I hope to be right along side you guys though! Still workin on those pics by the way.

 

[mmmdankbuds420]

P.S. Just wanna be able to be taken seriously so I can get good help and advice. So far you guys are nailing it! :)

 

[oscar169]

If you can swing it Blue Lab meters are all we run anymore, more money up front but they are some of the best, easy, simple to use.

 

[mmmdankbuds420]

Oscar169 - I'm familiar with blue lab guardian meters to an extent, but I thought they were more conventional for something like a hydro system were you have a reservoir that needs to constantly needs to be monitored. But for a single patient medical grow in soil wouldn't it be more conventional to simply use a stick meter? And also save a few bucks?

 

[oscar169]

Oscar169 - I'm familiar with blue lab guardian meters to an extent, but I thought they were more conventional for something like a hydro system were you have a reservoir that needs to constantly needs to be monitored. But for a single patient medical grow in soil wouldn't it be more conventional to simply use a stick meter? And also save a few bucks?

Sure Blue lab makes great stick meters, also, I have used several diff companies meters & Blue Lab was by far the best, just wish someone back in the day would have told me..;)

 

[sky high]

oscar is leading you down the right path.

I'm no expert...just kno enough to be dangerous most of the time.....but I think it's measuring the salt/electrical conductivity (EC) levels....sometimes you;ll see it as "tds" (total dissolved solids") or ppm...(parts per million)....

either way....the readings give you a basic idea what concentrations are in the water....

Yes....flush. In severe cases...use Clearex/etc or a 1/4 srength fert solution and pour it through the medium. Take more readings/flush til the numbers drop. In a "normal" flush.....you just use water and water normally for an extended period and let the plant use up the ferts present. (over a few weeks time, usually)

you'll get there. It just takes repeated grows and changing things up multiple times....and many of us are still changing shit up in our own gardens...even after 20+ years. LOL.

 

[Seamaiden]

Sky high - So just so I don't distort any facts here, the "parts" in parts per million is referring to NPK as a whole compared to the water? And if you were to check the run off and it were in the danger zone above the 2000, would you just flush the plant lightly or what's done is done and don't do it again kind of a thing?

PPM, TDS and EC measure anything that's dissolved (soluble) in the water AND that is electrically conductive. There are at least three conversion ratios for PPM that I'm aware of, that is specifically the reason why others encouraged me to learn to use EC, and I do the same as I try to pay it forward.

So, in PPM you could be measuring literally sodium chloride (table salt), the sea minerals I like to use would and do also measure very accurately using EC/PPM/TDS--anything that goes into solution and is electrically conductive will have an effect on EC, and therefore PPM/TDS readings. Molasses makes the EC readings go absolutely NUTS, whereas a thick solution of fish hydrolysate causes barely a shift, but my nose tells me there's plenty in the mix. Make sense?

I wish someone would have told me to go with Bluelab in the first place, too. The Hanna is alright, but just keeping the probe wet all the time with the cap provided is a pain in the ass. I need some probe cleaner, too.

Sky, that's funny what you're saying about changing things up multiple times in your grows. I think I've only done the same thing twice ONCE EVER.

 

[rick ratlin]

PPM, TDS and EC measure anything that's dissolved (soluble) in the water AND that is electrically conductive. There are at least three conversion ratios for PPM that I'm aware of, that is specifically the reason why others encouraged me to learn to use EC, and I do the same as I try to pay it forward.

So, in PPM you could be measuring literally sodium chloride (table salt), the sea minerals I like to use would and do also measure very accurately using EC/PPM/TDS--anything that goes into solution and is electrically conductive will have an effect on EC, and therefore PPM/TDS readings. Molasses makes the EC readings go absolutely NUTS, whereas a thick solution of fish hydrolysate causes barely a shift, but my nose tells me there's plenty in the mix. Make sense?

I wish someone would have told me to go with Bluelab in the first place, too. The Hanna is alright, but just keeping the probe wet all the time with the cap provided is a pain in the ass. I need some probe cleaner, too.

Well said Seamaiden! no cleaner for me, just the softest tooth brush I could find, and brush the probe after each use. For the TDS meter, soft scrub works great.

Gotta concur with everybody on the BlueLab combo meter. What I like about it is that if you break the pH probe, you can buy a new one without buying the whole unit. I'm a klutz so that is crucial for me. If you're only interested in finding TDS, get the BlueLab Truncheon, indestructible, and accurate as long as you keep it clean. Also, it reads 500/700 scale EC and CS all at the same time.

PPM does not give you your npk ratio, the label on the bottle does that, which you can use to get your target npk through calculations (if using multiple npk ratio nutrients)

You're gonna need a tds meter if any of that fox farm line-up is synthetic, as Sea told you a lot of organic ferts don't show up. It really helps in hydro systems, cause you can tell if you're plants are eating nutes or not.

Feed low, you're plants may look fine now, but if you're not using bennies or flushing plain water between feedings, nutes WILL eventually gather to a toxic level in the soil. It's like a steak, you can bring up the temperature, but once it's overdone, not much you can do but eat the crappy steak. This even applies to hydroponics using something as inert as hydroton. That being said, there's some really really heavy feeders on the farm that have fantastic results. I run ebb and flow hydroton, and never ever ever go over 1.4 EC and have great results too, without the need to flush (I call it starve) my plants, and still have a clean end product. Too each his own, but since you said this is you're first grow, you might wanna play it safe.

As I understand, here's the skinny on ppm (500 and 700 scale)-- The ppm readout is calculated from actual conductivity of the solution. The conductivity of the solution is a function of concentration of the ionic members and their mobility and charge. Also, the size of the ion matters too.

To simplify, large ions like phosphate, have slow movement and charge due to size, so the ppm will be lower. I think thats why the fish hydrosulfate doesn't show up, or that it has to be broken down in the soil first, idk. Small ions, such as sodium or potassium chloride, the conductivity is higher, therefore the calculated ppm are higher.

The 500 scale of ppm is based on sodium ions. The 700 scale is based on potassium ions. Confused? Me too. That's why, for simplicity and so that everyone is on the same page, we all ask to use EC. It's confusing when someone says just use 1000 ppm for weeks a-b. Just use EC when talking about tds (total dissolved solids)

For Synthetic nutrients, this is why 10mL of grow added to 1 gallon of water will not have the same ppm as 10 mL of Bloom to 1 gallon. foliage products tend to have a higher tds than blooming nutes.

So in conclusion, KISS. And best of luck!

I hope this helps, I feel like I'm just about over my head, and into Squigg's territory. He's the man that can really get deep into this.

 

[buddahslave]

Less is always best:cigar: