Perpetual Cloning Question

[Rcubed]

You can do it a billion times... Probably a trillion times

I agree. DNA has lasted for millions of years. I don't buy that they degrade over such a relatively short period of time.

 

[Enforcer]

Thanks guys. Rooting my third clone run now!

 

[MI.Woody]

Idk either way,. but I just thought I'd chip in this - I've read of people keeping the same plant going for 10+ years, outdoors (spain), flowering and harvesting every season and then re-vegging the plant,.. and I've heard that some strains can become acclimatised to their new environment, and what was at first a 13+ week finisher has itself changed to suit its climate and now finishes in 9 weeks. And the CLONES now finish in 9 weeks also. And that makes sense because environment (and stress) triggers certain gene's in basically everything, and these genes are then passed on in reproduction, so why not through cloning I guess?? Just a side thought. I can also see the argument for genetic degrdation (in general terms) from copying a copy. Idk. Perhaps it's both, and it really depends how well the previous clone was nurtured and how healthy it was when the cut was taken(?) Nature/Nurture,.. it's probably both,... maybe (?). lol

Seems right to me. I believe our strains mesh with our room environ and respond as you suggest. In fact clones I have shared have changed, but to what do attribute that, Response or Mutation? I could see a test by where you send clones to live and reproduce in another grow for a few years and compare, THEN send the same clones back to it's original room. Compare contrast.... discuss. ;o

 

[MI.Woody]

Seems right to me. I believe our strains mesh with our room environ and respond as you suggest. In fact clones I have shared have changed, but to what do attribute that, Response or Mutation? I could see a test by where you send clones to live and reproduce in another grow for a few years and compare, THEN send the same clones back to it's original room. Compare contrast.... discuss. ;o

I also think many problems attributed to clone degradation are (likely) bad cloning practices. I've said this before in this thread, but I ditched a White Widow mom for what looked just like the stuff in the Duds thread,which likes environmental issues more than genetic, though nothing is settled there last I looked.

 

[Maelstrom]

I have been asked this several times and I really can’t find an answer. I’m sure it’s been discussed here, I just can’t find it. So I apologize in advance if this is redundant.

I’m going to take cuttings before I flip to start my next run. Root the clones and veg them a little under T5’s. Then move to the tent when the last run is done drying. Then do it all again. My question is, how many times can you take a clone of a clone without adverse genetic issues pop up? Will anything bad happen at all, or can I just clone on like that into eternity? lol. Thanks.

I've grown a few strains for more than two years at a time and can say this: if you always take your clippings from a vegetative plant that hasn't EVER switched to flower mode you can grow the same strain indefinitely without detriment. In fact, every strain I've ever kept more than one year seems to mature in some interesting and surprising ways. Some strains will change flavor, scent, or even start to exhibit colors you've never seen. Just keep your clones vegetative, always take clippings before moving into flower, and take about three times more clippings than you need so that you can always take the healthiest, strongest and fastest rooted clones.

 

[Maelstrom]

Also, cannabis produces a large amount of CBN during vegetation, which is the precursor chemical to the other cannabinoids, so in addition to becoming stinkier and tastier, the longer your plants can veg the more potent they will be. Remember: a clone is not a new plant. It's the SAME PLANT. You're keeping one individual alive when you "clone" it. So, that has some interesting results for a plant that is normally annual. And switching backwards from flowering to vegetative is a sure-fire way to see degradation. Your new plants will be thinner, weaker and more susceptible to insect and microbe attack.
Think of it like forcing a pubescent teen to go backward to adolescence. The hormonal stress is incredible and it's bound to weaken your strain.

 

[Enforcer]

Also, cannabis produces a large amount of CBN during vegetation, which is the precursor chemical to the other cannabinoids, so in addition to becoming stinkier and tastier, the longer your plants can veg the more potent they will be. Remember: a clone is not a new plant. It's the SAME PLANT. You're keeping one individual alive when you "clone" it. So, that has some interesting results for a plant that is normally annual. And switching backwards from flowering to vegetative is a sure-fire way to see degradation. Your new plants will be thinner, weaker and more susceptible to insect and microbe attack.
Think of it like forcing a pubescent teen to go backward to adolescence. The hormonal stress is incredible and it's bound to weaken your strain.

Thanks you for posting your experience. I appreciate it. Going to keep her around for awhile. She’s never seen the flower cycle.

 

[Maelstrom]

Well i mean look at sfv, Chemdog D, Chemdog 91, ....how long have these cuts been around?
I suspect goin on 30 yrs. They still do great for me.....

The original Romulan was grown out in the 70's and if you're lucky you can still find good clippings. It was gifted to me as a new grower in 2009 and I grew it for a couple of years. Hard to say if it was truly original Romulan but an old grower said it had similar characteristics. Point being, if you care for your plants and they weren't abused before coming to you you should be able to grow them out for years, and I agree that every strain is different. Some may not take to this practice. Try cloning NYC Bullrider or any auto-flowering strain. It's a ruderalis cross and nearly impossible to clone.

 

[MidwestToker]

I agree. DNA has lasted for millions of years. I don't buy that they degrade over such a relatively short period of time.

True , but the DNA of a 100 years ago will not be exactly the same as it is today, close but not an exact match. If it was , why is there a diversity of phenotypes of the same genotype in nature.

 

[Rcubed]

True , but the DNA of a 100 years ago will not be exactly the same as it is today, close but not an exact match. If it was , why is there a diversity of phenotypes of the same genotype in nature.

True there is even slight physical deviation in identical twins. I don't believe that cannabis could appreciably degrade within a few years. JMO

 

[MidwestToker]

I've keep many a clones in my years. I have had some that were kept for close to 20 years on a continuous cloning regime and some that fizzled out in short order. Just as an example my HSO Blue Dream has lost all it's vigor after running it just a year.

 

[Rcubed]

I've keep many a clones in my years. I have had some that were kept for close to 20 years on a continuous cloning regime and some that fizzled out in short order. Just as an example my HSO Blue Dream has lost all it's vigor after running it just a year.

Which begs the question Do we know all the factors that govern the growth and development of living organims? Is it only DNA which determines growth and physical characteristics? I'll bet there's more to it than we know.

 

[Rcubed]

Which begs the question Do we know all the factors that govern the growth and development of living organims? Is it only DNA which determines growth and physical characteristics? I'll bet there's more to it than we know.

Maybe plants have a complexity that we can't completely fathom at this point in time. Perhaps a type of memory that is capable of making palpable changes to itself to adapt to a multitude of environmental factors.

 

[MidwestToker]

Maybe plants have a complexity that we can't completely fathom at this point in time. Perhaps a type of memory that is capable of making palpable changes to itself to adapt to a multitude of environmental factors.

Still a lot left for science to figure out or at least attempt to figure out with these plants.

 

[MI.Woody]

I think that is a great insight and a strong possibility.. To exapnd on this idea furthe and possibly to the extreme - are we farming cannabis, or is it farming us? lol. What i mean by that is it seems to have found the perfect germination method - MAN. Like any plants use differing meathods for pollenation, and over generations mutate and adapt themselves to do this better and more efficiently, developing coulours and smells to stract insects for example, has cannabis adapted to use US for its own end?? I'm serious, look at all the growers and breeders, buzzing around like little bee's, creating new strains and crosses, making it stronger and more diverse. Are we doing it for ourselves or are we being tricked? The honey bee thinks he's collecting pollen for himself, but we all know it's the plant that has enabled this for its own end. Without Man, cannabis would not have developed at anywher near the rate it has been abe to even in just the last 70 years, genetics from Russia would not have been able to mix with those from thailand, and then Jamaica then Africa, if left to the wind to do all the pollenating. It's something I've pondered on for a cpl of years now, whist I buzz contentedly between the flowers, lol. Maybe I'm too stoned, lol. But, I think plants MUST have a memory of dsome sort as proposed, and also a way of communicating with each other. I know scietific test on lettuce have showed that when one was cut, it sent a signal to the surrounding lettuces to warn them.. I know right, it sounds silly but apparently its true!? So I think its likely that there is some sort of genetic memory going on within canabis. Have you noticed the flavour compositions that cannabis is showing these days - Pineapple, Lemon, Citrus, SKITTLES ffs, Chocolate even,.. they're all in there and I don't think this is coincidence!! If it tasted like Faeces and vomit, do you think it would still be getting grown and aided in its deveopement?? Just another side thought, lol,.. Anyone else got any thoughts on this or did i go to far again this time?? lol

Not at all...... After I replied a few days ago, and as i thought more, I had a problem with the notion that genetic changes can result from changes in environmental conditions in the bud room. How do mothers experience those conditions when they live their lives entirely in the veg room? What crosses the divide of 12 and 18 hour worlds? I thought perhaps it's airborne. I'm following a thread on Methyl Jasmonate, and some other aromatics that can affect an entire stand in nature. It is suggested that herbivores munching on a plant cause it to generate a scent that has an impact on the others, causing increase terpenes that repel the animal.

 

[Maelstrom]

True , but the DNA of a 100 years ago will not be exactly the same as it is today, close but not an exact match. If it was , why is there a diversity of phenotypes of the same genotype in nature.

A plants genotype is the set of characteristics it has and exhibits based on its genetics, where the phenotype is the exhibition of characteristics based on environment. So, if you and I both had a clone of the same strain but we ran different programs, say RDWC v. soil organic, we might have starkly varying results. That's the phenotype. Two different seeds of the same strain have different genotypes. If I understand it correctly.

 

[MI.Woody]

A plants genotype is the set of characteristics it has and exhibits based on its genetics, where the phenotype is the exhibition of characteristics based on environment. So, if you and I both had a clone of the same strain but we ran different programs, say RDWC v. soil organic, we might have starkly varying results. That's the phenotype. Two different seeds of the same strain have different genotypes. If I understand it correctly.

I believe phenotypes are the typical variations seen in a strain (genotype). At a point in the breeding/seed production 2 lines composing the new strains are at the F1 stage and their seeds are the most consistent.

 

[MidwestToker]

Considering DNA encoding contains both dominant and recessive genes, one may never know when a recessive gene may rear its head up.
Why any of the respectable breeders say it takes 2 years to really work a strain to stabilize the traits they are looking for.

 

[Enforcer]

I was just watching a Dude Grows interview with Brothers Grim seeds. The guy he was talking to said he has run a cut for 20+ years without issue. Just every few runs they reset the mother plant.

 

[chemistry]

I've often wondered if I've done better with a cut from certain plants as apposed to the seed they were grown from the run before.