PH A Basic explanation

[Glassdub]

Yeah silica will. You need to mix it in order. Silica first then ph down to 6.2-6.4 ish then add the rest. If you add silica first check the ph after it will be pretty high and can cause things like iron and calcium to precipitate out of the nutrient solution.

Yeah, I always mix first, checked the first couple jugs to see the trend, no need for down in my case lol.

 

[Galvatron]

This is a great thread! Up until recently, I've overlooked "alkalinity" as pH above 7.0. What an "eye opener!" Funny how certain topics come up from different sources. The following video came out a couple days after the start of this post but they were dealing with the same topic. ALKALINITY.

A lot of growers have a pH and ppm meter but an alkalinity meter should be added to the list of recommended tools. Here is a nice, affordable one, the Hanna HI775. You can look it up or get one for a good price here.

HANNA ALKALINITY TESTER

DISCONTINUED THROUGH OCG 20% OFF REMAINING STOCK *No additional discounts Hanna Freshwater Alkalinity Colorimeter *Due To The Nature Of Water Testing Equipment All Sales Are Final. Warranty Handled Through Manufacture Stop wasting time struggling with a color chart. Get accurate water testing...

oregonsconstantgardener.com

Off thread topic: @Aqua Man, as a new soil grow experimenter, you might want to check out Nectar for the Gods. They use a "calcium driven" nutrient line that is different from the "salt" based nutrients.

 

[Aqua Man]

This is a great thread! Up until recently, I've overlooked "alkalinity" as pH above 7.0. What an "eye opener!" Funny how certain topics come up from different sources. The following video came out a couple days after the start of this post but they were dealing with the same topic. ALKALINITY.

A lot of growers have a pH and ppm meter but an alkalinity meter should be added to the list of recommended tools. Here is a nice, affordable one, the Hanna HI775. You can look it up or get one for a good price here.

HANNA ALKALINITY TESTER

DISCONTINUED THROUGH OCG 20% OFF REMAINING STOCK *No additional discounts Hanna Freshwater Alkalinity Colorimeter *Due To The Nature Of Water Testing Equipment All Sales Are Final. Warranty Handled Through Manufacture Stop wasting time struggling with a color chart. Get accurate water testing...

oregonsconstantgardener.com

Off thread topic: @Aqua Man, as a new soil grow experimenter, you might want to check out Nectar for the Gods. They use a "calcium driven" nutrient line that is different from the "salt" based nutrients.

I'm not even gonna lie. I never knew there was an alkalinity meter!!! Thank you for posting this. I will be ordering one in the coming weeks to see how it works

I have heard of notg. This is my first and last soil grow probably for a while.

 

[Aqua Man]

This is a great thread! Up until recently, I've overlooked "alkalinity" as pH above 7.0. What an "eye opener!" Funny how certain topics come up from different sources. The following video came out a couple days after the start of this post but they were dealing with the same topic. ALKALINITY.

A lot of growers have a pH and ppm meter but an alkalinity meter should be added to the list of recommended tools. Here is a nice, affordable one, the Hanna HI775. You can look it up or get one for a good price here.

HANNA ALKALINITY TESTER

DISCONTINUED THROUGH OCG 20% OFF REMAINING STOCK *No additional discounts Hanna Freshwater Alkalinity Colorimeter *Due To The Nature Of Water Testing Equipment All Sales Are Final. Warranty Handled Through Manufacture Stop wasting time struggling with a color chart. Get accurate water testing...

oregonsconstantgardener.com

Off thread topic: @Aqua Man, as a new soil grow experimenter, you might want to check out Nectar for the Gods. They use a "calcium driven" nutrient line that is different from the "salt" based nutrients.

Just watched the video. Yeah RO can lead to depletion of carbonate/bicarbonate I made a comment somewhere back that was about building a soil that matches the source water. If using RO you may want/need to add some dolomite lime midway. If they are pre buffered it's usually not to much of an issue to make it through one grow (of course depending on source water and nutrients used) but it can be depending on pot size/volume and type of soil used. The other option is to add these directly to each feed but the use of ph down I think is poor practice in terms of controlling the ph of water in the soil. (Still may be needed for mixing the nutrients to prevent precipitate). An alkalinity meter would be a big asset in the tool box. In hydro 50-100ppm carbonate/bicarbonate. I feel ideally 75ppm for a decent drift but there are some other things that can have a small influence on this.

Someone else posted about soil I think it was 100-200ppm.

This is only carbonate and bicarbonate sources like calcium carbonate not the total ppm. Like I was saying in most tap water the majority makeup of ppm is usually calcium carbonate. So at 100-150 and even 200ppm should put you pretty close if it's city tap water.

 

[cemchris]

Yeah silica will. You need to mix it in order. Silica first then ph down to 6.2-6.4 ish then add the rest. If you add silica first check the ph after it will be pretty high and can cause things like iron and calcium to precipitate out of the nutrient solution.

+1

This is the big thing people need to understand when mixing nutes and the source and chems used in the nutes. Also having this understanding when amending stuff.

PH has a big effect (also temp) on how quick a substance will dissolve or if it will dissolve at all in a timely manner. This will also will effect certain metals precipitating out or reacting with other nutrients. Fe is the big one. Specially when using Si. It's prob the most sensitive metal in a nutrient mix. EDTA loses its effectiveness over 6.5 (think a little over half of the Fe is available) and completely at above 7. This is the most common form you will see in off the shelf nutrient mixes. Why, depending on source water PH or media PH, you sometimes want to use a different chelate or lower the PH.

You will see in field and soil grows stuff like Sprint 138 (EDDHA) and Sprint 330 (DTPA) are used as the source of Fe since EDTA won't be effective because of the PH range. Sometimes it more effective to adjust the source then the medium or water.

 

[Aqua Man]

+1

This is the big thing people need to understand when mixing nutes and the source and chems used in the nutes. Also having this understanding when amending stuff.

PH has a big effect (also temp) on how quick a substance will dissolve or if it will dissolve at all in a timely manner. This will also will effect certain metals precipitating out or reacting with other nutrients. Fe is the big one. Specially when using Si. It's prob the most sensitive metal in a nutrient mix. EDTA loses its effectiveness over 6.5 (think a little over half of the Fe is available) and completely at above 7. This is the most common form you will see in off the shelf nutrient mixes. Why, depending on source water PH or media PH, you sometimes want to use a different chelate or lower the PH.

You will see in field and soil grows stuff like Sprint 138 (EDDHA) and Sprint 330 (DTPA) are used as the source of Fe since EDTA won't be effective because of the PH range. Sometimes it more effective to adjust the source then the medium or water.

And that folks is the advanced version I'm still trying to get a handle on completely.

 

[Glassdub]

So again, water pH matters, I give up, going to bed, got no sleep yesterday, looking 50/50 today at best.

 

[MIMedGrower]

This is why i avoided posting and even reading the weed forums for my first two years growing.

To confusing. Too many different answers. And how to know which comments are actually answers or just opinion.

Forums are bad for new growers more often than not in my opinion.

 

[Aqua Man]

So again, water pH matters, I give up, going to bed, got no sleep yesterday, looking 50/50 today at best.

Yes tldr is ph matters, alkalinity matters... Ppl need to be aware of both.

Also plants lives matter

 

[Ina]

I judge by their own color and such.........I mean if they look healthy why bother PHing and such?!Its usually high........The PH:DI mean the water is always high and the soil is a little bit lower........

 

[Glassdub]

Yes tldr is ph matters, alkalinity matters... Ppl need to be aware of both.

Also plants lives matter

But does pruning matter? that's another off topic can of worms that I'm currently more concerned with, think I've beaten this horse enough, for now at least.

 

[Frankster]

Yeah its a very complex topic. That's why I left it out. Hell I still don't fully understand it but working on it.

Yea, me either, but it certainly is an important topic and much can be gained from understanding it well. I think actually some of the enzymatic actions and the soluble/insoluble components present have various (indirect) roles in throwing pH one way or another, so insights into those imminent chemical reactions could give to further understanding on how Ph is thrown out of wack or perhaps, how these processes can be further understood and optimized toward keeping Ph in balance over the long haul.

I think amino acid residues might also be playing a role in this process.

 

[Aqua Man]

Yea, me either, but it certainly is an important topic and much can be gained from understanding it well. I think actually some of the enzymatic actions and the soluble/insoluble components present have various (indirect) roles in throwing pH one way or another, so insights into those imminent chemical reactions could give to further understanding on how Ph is thrown out of wack or perhaps, how these processes can be further understood and optimized toward keeping Ph in balance over the long haul.

I think amino acid residues might also be playing a role in this process.

I don't doubt that. I do know the bacteria population of the soil and air holding capacity can have a large effect on soil pH. Because bacteria (aerobic ones anyway) respire like us. They take in oxygen and give off CO2 which can lead to an increase in carbonic acid. This is why I highly believe in seeding them but not overdoing teas and others and really makes a difference when you have good aeration of the soil to facilitate happy microbes and plants.

Really the more I think about the ideal media for microbiology the more I think coco is that magic media for it. I think we will see more organic type grows in the future using coco only much differently than is common. No run off but still saturated. Coco/vermiculite comes to mind for this.

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

My bio teachers would all call h+ “hydrogen ion” but my ochem teacher would always flip out when people say “hydrogen ions”. Since h2 is hydrogen, h2- is hydronium, and h+ Is a proton. Even bio books would refer to “hydrogen ion” gradients etc, where chem books would say proton gradient.

 

[Aqua Man]

My bio teachers would all call h+ “hydrogen ion” but my ochem teacher would always flip out when people say “hydrogen ions”. Since h2 is hydrogen, h2- is hydronium, and h+ Is a proton. Even bio books would refer to “hydrogen ion” gradients etc, where chem books would say proton gradient.

Yeah I may have misused terms if so please feel free to correct info. I would rather have it corrected than not.

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

One thing to note is that microbes do not just moderate the ph of your soil, but catalyze reactions on both sides of the ph scale by producing enzymes with active sites that work by simulating the ideal ph for a specific reaction. So a healthy soil would still test at a certain ph but it effectively operates on a wider ph range than a lifeless soil.

 

[Aqua Man]

One thing to note is that microbes do not just moderate the ph of your soil, but catalyze reactions on both sides of the ph scale by producing enzymes with active sites that work by simulating the ideal ph for a specific reaction. So a healthy soil would still test at a certain ph but it effectively operates on a wider ph range than a lifeless soil.

Absolutely but that has more to do with availability although they both go hand in hand in a sense. There are a ton of variables when getting this in depth. Microbes themselves need a ph that supports them or you have none at all so it's all within reason and not as big of an impact as some may think. It also depends on the microbes and species themselves. Now nature has managed to address this by having. Different species performing nearly the same functions at varying temps, ph, salinity and overall environment

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

Yeah I may have misused terms if so please feel free to correct info. I would rather have it corrected than not.

I was not trying to say either term is wrong just a funny inconsistency within the sciences. These inconsistencies are everywhere. One inconsistency that drives me crazy is the Omega carbon, in organic chemistry is the one next to the carbonyl carbon, but in nutritional science it is the carbonyl carbon. So Omega-3 to an organic chemist is the carbon 4 away from the carbonyl carbon, but to a nutritionist it is the carbon 3 away. How fucking confusing is that!

 

[Aqua Man]

I was not trying to say either term is wrong just a funny inconsistency within the sciences. These inconsistencies are everywhere. One inconsistency that drives me crazy is the Omega carbon, in organic chemistry is the one next to the carbonyl carbon, but in nutritional science it is the carbonyl carbon. So Omega-3 to an organic chemist is the carbon 4 away from the carbonyl carbon, but to a nutritionist it is the carbon 3 away. How fucking confusing is that!

From a highschool dropout who has tried to understand this stuff... Sooo confusing bro.

I absolutely hear you sometimes I talk to ppl about thing I understand and they may not so they use the wrong terminology and i I will be like well actually this is the term and they like yeah yeah same thing... Lol but it's not. This would be a good example of the reverse. Again I would rather info be accurate so I appreciate the chiming into the discussion. It's only going to make for better information for those reading and that's the goal here

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

From a highschool dropout who has tried to understand this stuff... Sooo confusing bro.

I absolutely hear you sometimes I talk to ppl about thing I understand and they may not so they use the wrong terminology and i I will be like well actually this is the term and they like yeah yeah same thing... Lol but it's not. This would be a good example of the reverse. Again I would rather info be accurate so I appreciate the chiming into the discussion. It's only going to make for better information for those reading and that's the goal here

It's nice finding people who like talking about science. I majored in Molecular Bio in college and didn't end up working in that field so I miss it sometimes. I have very little practical knowledge of ph regarding growing, I only ever tried growing with synthetics once and lets just say its not for me. And I don't really whip about the ph meter for organics.