Ph Dropping From 5.8 To 3.9 Overnight! What Is Causing This?

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RFT

RFT

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I believe nitrogen is slightly more available at lower PH.... I just found this. See what ya think.

Nitrogen

The form of N and the fate of N in the soil-plant system is probably the major driver of changes in soil pH in agricultural systems.

Nitrogen can be added to soils in many forms, but the predominant forms of fertilizer N used are urea (CO(NH2)2), monoammonium phosphate (NH4H2PO4), diammonium phosphate ((NH4)2HPO4), ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3), calcium ammonium nitrate (CaCO3+NH4(NO3)) ammonium sulfate ((NH4)2SO4), urea ammonium nitrate (a mixture of urea and ammonium nitrate) and ammonium polyphosphate ([NH4PO3]n).

The key molecules of N in terms of changes in soil pH are the uncharged urea molecule ([CO(NH2)2]0), the cation ammonium (NH4+) and the anion nitrate (NO3-). The conversion of N from one form to the other involves the generation or consumption of acidity, , and the uptake of urea, ammonium or nitrate by plants will also affect acidity of soil (Figure 1).

/acidity_nitrogen.jpg?v=1&v=2


Figure 1. Soil acidity and nitrogen fertilizers (modified from (Davidson 1987)). MAP = monoammonium phosphate, DAP = diammonium phosphate, SoA = sulfate of ammonia, CAN = calcium ammonium nitrate, sodium nitrate​

It can be seen in Figure 1 that ammonium-based fertilizers will acidify soil as they generate two H+ ions for each ammonium molecule nitrified to nitrate. The extent of acidification depends on whether the nitrate produced from ammonium is leached or is taken up by plants. If nitrate is taken up by plants the net acidification per molecule of ammonium is halved compared to the scenario when nitrate is leached. This is due to the consumption of one H+ ion (or excretion of OH-) for each molecule of nitrate taken up – this is often observed as pH increases in the rhizosphere (Smiley and Cook 1973). Anhydrous ammonia and urea have a lower acidification potential compared to ammonium-based products as one H+ ion is consumed in the conversion to ammonium. Nitrate-based fertilizers have no acidification potential and actually can increase soil pH as one H+ ion is absorbed by the plant (or OH- excreted) in the uptake of nitrate.

Phosphorus

The form of P fertilizer added to soil can affect soil acidity, principally through the release or gain of H+ ions by the phosphate molecule depending on soil pH (Figure 2). If phosphoric acid (PA) is added to soil, the molecule will always acidify soil as H+ ions will be released - one H+ ion if the soil pH is less than ~6.2 and two H+ ions is the soil pH is above 8.2. Monoammonium phosphate (MAP), single superphosphate (SSP) and triple superphosphate (TSP) all add P to soil in the form of the H2PO4- ion, which can acidify soil with a pH greater than 7.2 but has no effect on soil pH in acidic soils. The form of P in diammonium phosphate (DAP) is HPO42- which can make acidic soils (pH<7.2) more alkaline but has no effect on soil with a pH>7.2. The hydrolysis of ammonium polyphosphate (APP), where the P present as the P2O74- molecule converts to HPO42-, is pH neutral and hence any acidification due to adding P can be regarded as similar to DAP. SSP or TSP are sometimes declared to cause soil acidification due to reaction products being very acidic;

Ca(H2PO4)2+ 2H2O è CaHPO4 + H+ + H2PO4-​

but in soils with pH values less than 7.7 the following reaction neutralizes the acidity produced so that there is no net acidification;

CaHPO4 + H2O è Ca2+ + H2PO4- + OH-​

In high pH soils (pH >7.2), dissociation of H+ ion from the H2PO4- molecule will generate some acidity.

Crop uptake of P has little effect on soil acidity due to the small amounts of fertilizer P taken up in any one year – hence fertilizer chemistry dominates pH changes and significant differences in rhizosphere pH have not been observed for uptake of different orthophosphate ions.

/acidity_phosphorus.jpg?v=1&v=2


Figure 2. Soil acidity and P fertilizers. MAP = monoammonium phosphate, DAP = diammonium phosphate,

SSP = single superphosphate, TSP = triple superphosphate, APP = ammonium polyphosphate.


Sulfur

The form of S fertilizer added to soil can affect soil acidity, principally through the release of H+ ions by the addition of elemental S (S0) or thiosulfate (S2O32-, in ammonium thiosulfate - ATS) (Figure 3). However, the amounts of S added to soil and taken up by plants are generally small in comparison to N.

/acidity_sulphur.jpg?v=1&v=2


Figure 3. Soil acidity and S fertilizers. S0 = elemental S, ATS = ammonium thiosulfate, SoA = sulfate of ammonia.

For each molecule of S0 added to soil, two H+ ions will be generated, and these can be balanced through plant uptake by either uptake of H+ (same as excretion of OH- ions) or the generation of OH- (effectively organic anions) within the plant to form alkaline plant material (“ash alkalinity”). Where produce is removed (which is often the case in agricultural systems) net acidification of soil will occur if S0 or ATS are used.

Potassium

The form in which K is added to soil – either muriate of potash (KCl) or sulfate of potash (K2SO4) - has no effect on soil acidification.

Does that take into account this is hydro, not soil? And that these are all synthetic nutes (in a sterile resi) that are designed to work for this application?

Yeah, N is easier to uptake at lower pH but tbh it’s uptake occurs throughout the pH range. It’s the P & K that need higher pH’s later in the cycle.
 
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Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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It is my understanding that the pH down is very stable. And not something the plant uptakes. So while it might be “phosphoric”, P acid is not something the plants eat. So it’s unlikely there is a P overload. Plus, we’d see this issue much sooner wouldn’t we?

Gotta examine the breadcrumbs this conundrum is leaving us... why week 4? Why plateaus in the development? Why no colas?

Granted, this go around it appears the development is going well & colas are forming. But consider me skeptical until getting to harvest.
Yeah I'm suggesting that its possible high P is having and effect on your plant development or possib;y even K for that matter. The ratio is to high in essence to other nutrients per se. This I feel could lead to a decline in plant heath and impact growth rates thus effecting the PH by various things

You see it after you start adding PK IMO from what i have read. Have you tried no PK at all. Generally speaking IMO PK boosters are enough to fuck your ratio's by themselves and both higher P and K change ratios and can lead to other nutrients being influenced and even locked out.
 
Aqua Man

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Does that take into account this is hydro, not soil? And that these are all synthetic nutes (in a sterile resi) that are designed to work for this application?

Yeah, N is easier to uptake at lower pH but tbh it’s uptake occurs throughout the pH range. It’s the P & K that need higher pH’s later in the cycle.
Its the same process no matter the media... Thats why hydro growers stay away from ammonia/ammonium we generally don't have the microbes to break the ammonia down
 
RFT

RFT

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Yeah I'm suggesting that its possible high P is having and effect on your plant development. The ratio is to high in essence to other nutrients per se. This I feel could lead to a decline in plant heath and impact growth rates thus effecting the PH by various

You see it after you start adding PK IMO from what i have read. Have you tried no PK at all. Generally speaking IMO PK boosters are enough to fuck your ratio's by themselves and both higher P and K change ratios and can lead to other nutrients being influenced and even locked out.

I have not tried a cycle without Liquid Kool Bloom. Namely being that it’s the one component that universally everyone has agreed needs to be added as if it was a base nutrient.

But to your credit, it does appear to be one of the breadcrumbs.
 
RFT

RFT

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Its the same process no matter the media... Thats why hydro growers stay away from ammonia/ammonium we generally don't have the microbes to break the ammonia down

Understood.

I guess I figured I wasnt using anything that wasn’t extremely conducive to hydro since this is GenHydro nutes.
 
Aqua Man

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Understood.

I guess I figured I wasnt using anything that wasn’t extremely conducive to hydro since this is GenHydro nutes.
Yeah I don't think you are either all made for use with hydro I believe the sources are adequate.

As for universal agreement pk boost is needed I feel that's an older conception that have more falsehood than previously thought. Especially in terms of phosphorous. K should not exceed 2-1 ratio of N in my opinion also. To me I see it as being all about ratios not so much about the individual nutrients. The reason a lot of these additives people say do well is with some nutrients they help give a more balanced ratio but others they do the opposite. With the better ratios coming out in nutes these days there is little to no benefit to ok boost and more harm than good is usually the case.
 
Aqua Man

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Let say you are using a 1-1-1 ratio well then K and nitrogen could use a boost so you may use something like cal nitrate and pk boost (as it add more available K than P) and some epsom salt to balance the cal mag ratio to get a better overall nutrient ratio.

Remember a supplement is only needed if there is a deficiency to begin with and deficiencies are not always due to the availability of a nutrient then add that nutrient ratios affect uptake and availability of other nutrients. Then plant processes use different nutrients and cation exchange capacity of substrate (water in this case) and weird things can happen that can be indirectly caused by any of these factors. I'm no chemist, biologist, botanist or other so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt and I wish I could be more help...

All I can say is I have a feeling pk and nutrient ratios are playing a role here to some extent either directly or indirectly.
 
RFT

RFT

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Let say you are using a 1-1-1 ratio well then K and nitrogen could use a boost so you may use something like cal nitrate and pk boost (as it add more available K than P) and some epsom salt to balance the cal mag ratio to get a better overall nutrient ratio.

Remember a supplement is only needed if there is a deficiency to begin with and deficiencies are not always due to the availability of a nutrient then add that nutrient ratios affect uptake and availability of other nutrients. Then plant processes use different nutrients and cation exchange capacity of substrate (water in this case) and weird things can happen that can be indirectly caused by any of these factors. I'm no chemist, biologist, botanist or other so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt and I wish I could be more help...

All I can say is I have a feeling pk and nutrient ratios are playing a role here to some extent either directly or indirectly.

In other words, the supplements are often bandaids to system inefficiencies. For example, calmag became popular/necessary when coco medium became widely used.

There is the off chance that I did so well with the design & buildout of this facility, that it is perfectly efficient. And that the base A & B nutes would be sufficient. Making LKB unnecessary and actually counter productive.

Interesting theory and worth trying at this point. Zone 4 is in week 1. I could attempt that cycle without LKB. Wouldnt that be something if my colas & yield improved.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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In other words, the supplements are often bandaids to system inefficiencies. For example, calmag became popular/necessary when coco medium became widely used.

There is the off chance that I did so well with the design & buildout of this facility, that it is perfectly efficient. And that the base A & B nutes would be sufficient. Making LKB unnecessary and actually counter productive.

Interesting theory and worth trying at this point. Zone 4 is in week 1. I could attempt that cycle without LKB. Wouldnt that be something if my colas & yield improved.
I have a feeling they will... but again your not going to get back what you lost in stunting if that is the case
 
RFT

RFT

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I have a feeling they will... but again your not going to get back what you lost in stunting if that is the case

No LKB is added in week 1.

It’s been minimal in weeks 2 thru 6. Only got heavy in week 7.

Only on this most recent cycle did I accelerate the LKB dosage.

So no stunting in zone 4. No pH issues in zone 3 (still in week 3).

This pH issue has happened with large & minimal amounts of P-K booster.

Only thing that hasnt been attempted is zero LKB. Which is still something I could attempt in zone 4. Or even zone 3 since it hasnt reached week 4 yet (although it has been getting LKB the last 2 weeks).
 
RFT

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It should be worth noting that the pH drop this week was the least severe. Since increasing P-K.
 
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Aqua Man

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It should be worth noting that the pH dropbthis week was the least severe. Since increasing P-K.
Yeah i wish i had better answers man. I think your gonna be the guy to really bring some insight to this.
 
RFT

RFT

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Yeah i wish i had better answers man. I think your gonna be the guy to really bring some insight to this.

It’s interesting that this pH dropping issue is something that pops up easily on a lotta forums if google searched.

Yet nobody seems to have ultimately solved it. Most responses from veterans say “EC too high”.

I’ll continue to adjust variables and eventually get this sorted.
 
Aqua Man

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It’s interesting that this pH dropping issue is something that pops up easily on a lotta forums if google searched.

Yet nobody seems to have ultimately solved it. Most responses from veterans say “EC too high”.

I’ll continue to adjust variables and eventually get this sorted.
Yeah I'm interested in this too. Like I say I felt with it in my first grow and yeah fuck all for a definitive answer. I made some changes and don't have the issue anymore. Ph drift is slower but still on the upswing
 
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RFT

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Minor update...

Zone 1 / Week 7 - pH has stabilized all week. EC (1.4) has been stable.

Zone 2 / Week 5 - pH has stabilized both Thursday & Friday. EC (1.4) is dropping each day steadily, with auto doser adding nutes as needed. This is a first.

Zone 3 / Week 3 - pH has been stable all cycle (as expected). EC (1.4) is dropping each day steadily, with auto doser adding nutes as needed. This is a first.

Zone 4 / Week 1 - pH has been stable (as expected). EC at 1.0 and holding.
 
RFT

RFT

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New clues & issues.

Been taking even more detailed notes this month. Noticing a pattern that will require further monitoring to be definitive.

Every time the pH has dropped, it was after the auto doser kicked in due to EC reaching a low point. The plants are eating a lot.

Every day the EC drops 0.05 before the auto doser kicks on. Im thinking I need to widen the float some to at least 0.10 EC.

Not every time the plants feed does the pH drop. But EVERY time the pH dropped this month it correlated with a auto feeding.

Zone 2 has been showing some N toxicity.

Zone 3 started showing minor amounts as well.

Im not sure why, since I’ve lowered the N levels pretty significantly in those stages of the recipes.

And zone 4 (less than 2 weeks old) started showing N deficiencies this week. WTF?!? So i started doing some heavy inspections of that zone. Going thru everything. Upon checking the auto doser something didnt look right so I started to take it apart. Both the silica and the flora duo A injection ports on the manifold were clogged with salt buildup. The plants hadnt been getting FD-A so no wonder the N deficiency. FML!!! Why was the FD-A pump clogged? On a previous run I was using that doser for silica. I rearranged the feeding order this go around. It’s been clogged since the previous grow cycle.

So now I start checking all the zones. All the silica tubes are clogged with salt. None of the other nutes tho.

No telling how long this has been this way. But many weeks. And it only took these two weeks to clog the silicaa doser currently being used in z4.

So safe to say, the plants haven’t been getting silica in a long time. The silica they were getting was having instability issues and thus solidifying? Ive never seen silica fallout. I’ve used auto dosers for years and never had this problem. Wasnt the brand’s failt either, upon checking a zone that had different silica brand (and sodium silicate instead of potassium silicate) it had the same clogged tubes. Rock hard white salt buildup.

Silica supposedly has lots of benefits. But at this stage im ready to pull it out. Just run a simple base formula of A, B, & LKB. Heck, maybe even just the A & B. Start from scratch again.

Switch to foliaring silica.

Maybe this is all tied to my pH issue? Silica instability issues can cause deficiencies among other problems.
 
RFT

RFT

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REALLY REALLY considering a nutrient recipe shakeup.

All four zones with low EC & generic pH set points 5.6-6.2

Might run my next zone on just A&B alone.

Then z2 on A&B w/ LKB

Then z3 with power si silica. I hear it has much better stability.

It’s time for a reset & back to the basics.
 
RFT

RFT

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So I’ve gone ahead and made some significant shakeups in the nutes protocol

Z1 - A&B only

Z2 - A&B +LKB

Z3 - A&B +LKB (using accelerated ratios that lower N sooner and seem to have addressed pH dropping)

Z4 - A&B +LKB, +Silica (Stout MSA by Alchemist is a monosilic acid which is supposedly more stable)



Two things,

1. pH is dropping overnight in zone 2 again. And not when auto dosing is occuring. So Im at a loss for explanation there.

2. Zone 4 has a lot of that brown sludge building up on the roots again that I started a thread on some time ago. My theory at the moment is that it is fallout. The new silica is having the same reaction as before. It’s either reacting with the other nutrients or the existing CalMag that’s naturally in the well water. I’ve been told that iron/cal/mag fallout looks like brown/rust colored sludge. I have had any of this for a long time in the other zones, but then again, the silica pumps were jammed clogged with crystallized silica. I dont think it’s a coincidence that after i unclog the doser & the silica is injected again, that the sludge returns immediately.

So safe to say that z4 has all sorts of bad chemical reactions going on in it. Any suggestions? Should I just flush the resi and put a new solution in (without silica this time) and will that be ok? Or do I gotta worry about that old sludge messing up the new nutes?
 
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