Possible lockout in living soil?

Matthewstever · Jan 28, 2020

Someone else mentioned environmental stress...I almost killed my girls letting them get too cold...leaf edges curled up just like in your pics...

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Matthewstever said:
Someone else mentioned environmental stress...I almost killed my girls letting them get too cold...leaf edges curled up just like in your pics...

Thank you for sharing! I have these girls in the same bedroom where I'm sleeping and the temps never go below 63. I understand phosphorus is impeded by cold temps. Perhaps the leaf curling is related to a phosphorus issue too.

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Non-glandular unicellular trichomes are what forms on the underside of the leaf. They will not form heads that big. The only thing you should be seeing on the underside of your leaves are those tiny hair like structures that make up that type of trichome, anything else is problems.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
Non-glandular unicellular trichomes are what forms on the underside of the leaf. They will not form heads that big. The only thing you should be seeing on the underside of your leaves are those tiny hair like structures that make up that type trichome, anything else is problems.

Alright, I'll keep this in mind. I'm sure I seem far too hopeful to be avoiding mites, but why can't I identify any of them? Have you seen these mites near their eggs on the underside of the leaf?

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Alright, I'll keep this in mind. I'm sure I seem far too hopeful to be avoiding mites, but why can't I identify any of them? Have you seen these mites near their eggs on the underside of the leaf?

I've seen very few of the actual critter. Broads are really fast, and cyclamens will hide in the yellowish deformed new growth that comes off as a nitrate deficiency and looks also like a mag issue. You may want to find a site that's just starting to open, and crack it and see what you find. Cyclamens tend to stick to new growth, where as Broads tend to infect most of the plant.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
I've seen very few of the actual critter. Broads are really fast, and cyclamens will hide in the yellowish deformed new growth that comes off as a nitrate deficiency and looks also like a mag issue. You may want to find a site that's just starting to open, and crack it and see what you find. Cyclamens tend to stick to new growth, where as Broads tend to infect most of the plant.

Hey I just found this on reddit. Not sure on the credibility of the source, but at least I can identify the type of trichromes better, and I hope my pictures reveal a type of trichrome called Capitate-Sessile.

"Capitate-Sessile:

(approximately 25-220 micron resin head; one micron tall stalk) The second type of gland is much larger and much more numerous than the first. These are called capitate-sessile. Essentially meaning globular head attached without stalk. These glands actually do have a one cell high stalk, but it is not visible when observed by macro. Instead, the globular head seems to be sitting flush on the plant. The head is usually composed of eight to 16 cells that create a convex rosette formation. These head cells secrete cannabinoids and terpenes between that rosette and cuticle, resulting in a spherical shape."

"Capitate-sessile trichome (center) on cannabis leaf surrounded by non-glandular trichomes or cystolith hairs."

Beachwalker · Jan 28, 2020

Broad mites? Mystery eggs and NO crawlers!

A year ago I had russet mites and didn't know until my plants were duding 3 wks into flower. I cleaned the entire house and started again. I had an excellent second grow, but 10 days before harvest my house was ravaged by burglars...the plants that were in veg were flowered and yielded...

www.icmag.com

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Beachwalker said:
Broad mites? Mystery eggs and NO crawlers!

A year ago I had russet mites and didn't know until my plants were duding 3 wks into flower. I cleaned the entire house and started again. I had an excellent second grow, but 10 days before harvest my house was ravaged by burglars...the plants that were in veg were flowered and yielded...

www.icmag.com

View attachment 935014

Thanks for the reference Beachwalker. I still feel confused though. On page 3 of that post "Scrappy-doo" makes the same conclusion I am making:

"Have you even positively identified any sort of mite? If you're just going off the pics of those 'eggs', those aren't eggs. They're either glands or stomata I'm pretty sure.

What I do know is that leaves have those and they're normal. At one point I was having all sorts of problems and thought maybe I had broad mites, so I took a high powered scope and saw those. They're on every leaf and spaced out equally.

I never had any broad, cyclomen, or other microscopic mites and those problems all went away. The problem was something else completely. Don't go trying to destroy those your plant needs them."

I want to go with Scrappy-doo on this one. I feel like i've had similar experiences, where i've seen these sessile trichromes before all over.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

This page eventually concludes that these trichromes are not mite eggs and are actually sessile trichromes:

Round milky "eggs" under leaves?? what are these things

It's two mites and mildew. The small black dots are the chasmothecium of powdery mildew, and you can clearly see the fungus' strands. Therefore, the translucent dots are most likely the fruiting bodies of powdery mildew. I don't know what the magnification is. In the top 1/8th of the picture...

www.icmag.com

another page concluding the same thing - trichs, not eggs. Though it has confused many and for good reason!

Egg or trichome???

Maybe I missed it, but everyone so far has just said mites, no mention of spider anywhere. And the pic does look a lot like broad mite egg.

www.icmag.com

Again I'm worried people will view this thread and think it is most likely I have a mite infestation. I was hoping to find advice on nutrient antagonism and how to flush/treat potential organic soil imbalances.

I understand that at high levels of phosphorus it begins binding to available calcium. I am am pretty sure I amended too much high phosphorus guano while mixing this soil. The phosphorus could have bound to the calcium and formed calcium phosphate.

At this point the calcium is now unavailable to my plants, and I see major heat stress issue from transpiration failure. I raise my 300w HPS light from 18" to 24" and remove the plant from direct light and symptoms improve. Nevertheless, I still have a nutrient deficiency that I'm not sure how to fix. Do I flush my soil with an enzymatic product like slf-100 to clear out the phosphorus and calcium, or do I use a phosphate solubilizing bacterial product like mammoth p to release the calcium phosphate into a chelated form?

Beachwalker · Jan 28, 2020

So I don't see any bite marks (little white dots) on the top of the leaves; You see no mites

I don't see any of those little round balls touching in groups like you'd expect, they look spread out in a pattern like they belong to the plant. On the other hand they sure do look like eggs, so Idk?

I've already vacillated enough LOL this is a learning thread for me so I'll watch and learn, I hope it works out for the best for you good luck!

Edit: yes that's why I posted it because like Scrappy-Doo in that thread they also had varied opinion and I found that interesting

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Thanks for the reference Beachwalker. I still feel confused though. On page 3 of that post "Scrappy-doo" makes the same conclusion I am making:

"Have you even positively identified any sort of mite? If you're just going off the pics of those 'eggs', those aren't eggs. They're either glands or stomata I'm pretty sure.

What I do know is that leaves have those and they're normal. At one point I was having all sorts of problems and thought maybe I had broad mites, so I took a high powered scope and saw those. They're on every leaf and spaced out equally.

I never had any broad, cyclomen, or other microscopic mites and those problems all went away. The problem was something else completely. Don't go trying to destroy those your plant needs them."

I want to go with Scrappy-doo on this one. I feel like i've had similar experiences, where i've seen these sessile trichromes before all over.

Those trichomes are glandular, glandular trichomes typically serve the purpose of sunscreen to a plant. Those are common to the top side of a leaf and not bottom. Good luck.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
I see how my words can be misinterpretted, i'll edit my original post for clarity. I meant the MAC clone is struggling, not the the clone shop. The clone shop is ran by SUBdlc and its called 313 clones..they have built a reputation in California and now in Detroit. Haven't found any complaints yet about mite infestations.

You are sure about eggs then? Did it look like this for you when you dealt with your infestation? I am still dubious, because I cannot find a single mite!

I meant to write "SUBlbc" not "SUBdlc" for where I sourced these clones at 313clones.

Clones | 313clones | Detroit

313Clones.com, Offering the best cannabis clones in Michigan!

www.313clones.com

SUBLBC Nurseries | The Best Clones in the Mitten! | Visit our ONLINE Store!

Sublbc Nurseries is the best place to get marijuana clones in the Detroit Metro area. Sublbcnurseries services the entire state of Michigan.

www.sublbc.com

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Beachwalker said:
So I don't see any bite marks (little white dots) on the top of the leaves; You see no mites

I don't see any of those little round balls touching in groups like you'd expect, they look spread out in a pattern like they belong to the plant. On the other hand they sure do look like eggs, so Idk?

I've already vacillated enough LOL this is a learning thread for me so I'll watch and learn, I hope it works out for the best for you good luck!

Edit: yes that's why I posted it because like Scrappy-Doo in that thread they also had varied opinion and I found that interesting

I'm going back and forth too! My gut tells me that these are sessile trichromes based on their color, shape, and arrangement on the leaf. They are arranged uniformily where they exist at all. The mite eggs I've seen tend to be grouped together. Also, why can't I find any mites no matter how hard I look all over the plant. I'm going blind from staring through a microscope so long lol.

Thank you again for sharing in this thread. I hope we can discover something more definitive eventually!

Dirtbag · Jan 28, 2020

I dont know about the egg thing. leaves do have resin glands on them that under 120x might look like that. I've never used magnification that high.

And I'm not sure about broad mites either. Damage from those usually looks like similar to mg def but more stippled, and severe canoeing at the base of the leaves. I'm not really seeing either of those signs.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Dirtbag said:
I dont know about the egg thing. leaves do have resin glands on them that under 120x might look like that. I've never used magnification that high.

And I'm not sure about broad mites either. Damage from those usually looks like similar to mg def but more stippled, and severe canoeing at the base of the leaves. I'm not really seeing either of those signs.

Yes I agree about the symptoms of broad mites. Although I haven't encountered them personally, it becomes obvious after looking at 100+ examples of russet mites online that they eat away the leaf so that it looks like mg deficiency, and they'll even accumulate so much as to form rust carpets on the petioles. I figure if i'm seeing hundreds of "eggs" id at least find one mite.

Then I found out thanks to @Bmg1982 that cyclamen mites are a noteworthy pest, and their eggs do in fact resemble the trichomes I am seeing, but not exactly. So I am left to thinking that I still have a nutrient issue, and I spent a long time staring at sessile trichromes today.

Just found these pictures of cyclamen mites and eggs from: http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/organic/news/2015/2015-01a2.htm

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Your not going to find glandular trichomes on the bottom side of any leaf, no matter what the plant is. It serves no function there. Non glandular trichomes will be everywhere. You are specifically dealing with the cyclamen mite.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
Your not going to find glandular trichomes on the bottom side of any leaf, no matter what the plant is. It serves no function there. Non glandular trichomes will be everywhere. You are specifically dealing with the cyclamen mite.

Oops, just realized I've been using the word "trichrome" this whole time haha. I'm gonna have to do more digging into sessile trichomes and how to identify cyclamen mites. At the very least now, I have new things to consider. If I do identify them as cyclamen mite eggs, would the treatment be neem, high heat environment, and predatory insects?

Thanks

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

If I looked under the microscope and just saw this it would be so easy!

Cyclamen Mite

Instead I see this:

The mite eggs seem oval, and what I am seeing seems round.

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Oops, just realized I've been using the word "trichrome" this whole time haha. I'm gonna have to do more digging into sessile trichomes and how to identify cyclamen mites. At the very least now, I have new things to consider. If I do identify them as cyclamen mite eggs, would the treatment be neem, high heat environment, and predatory insects?

Thanks

I really am just trying to help, I'm in the Michigan area and these fucking things are everywhere. I'm constantly helping my crew clean these things up.

I understand I'm kinda the new guy around here and trying my best not to shit on anyone's lawn. I have my own journal were I explain myself a bit. I work with a lot of plants outside of cannabis and have most of my life. These things are real common in ornamental plant greenhouses all over the country. I've worked in some of these greenhouses.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
I really am just trying to help, I'm in the Michigan area and these fucking things are everywhere. I'm constantly helping my crew clean these things up.

I understand I'm kinda the new guy around here and trying my best not to shit on anyone's lawn. I have my own journal were I explain myself a bit. I work with a lot of plants outside of cannabis and have most of my life. These things are real common in ornamental plant greenhouses all over the country. I've worked in some of these greenhouses.

I post on THCfarmer before anywhere else, because I tend to find thoughtful people looking to help such as yourself. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience with me. My experience is limited to 5 years growing cannabis about 5 plants per year. So it is extremely limited, and I have so much to learn.

In your experience you wouldn't expect to find trichomes on the underside of a leaf in any species? I understand trichomes exist on species besides cannabis.

Edit: Are you familiar with the work of Ethan Russo? I tried digging up a comment about the evolution of trichomes, and all I could find was a mention that their selection pressure seemed to be driven by UV protection and pest protection. I can't figure out why the underside of a leaf wouldn't have trichomes. Especially knowing how many pests like to linger under leaves.

Possible lockout in living soil?

Possible lockout in living soil?

Matthewstever

Docta Haze

Bmg1982

Docta Haze

Bmg1982

Docta Haze

Beachwalker

Broad mites? Mystery eggs and NO crawlers!

Docta Haze

Broad mites? Mystery eggs and NO crawlers!

Docta Haze

Round milky "eggs" under leaves?? what are these things

Egg or trichome???

Beachwalker

Bmg1982

Docta Haze

Clones | 313clones | Detroit

SUBLBC Nurseries | The Best Clones in the Mitten! | Visit our ONLINE Store!

Docta Haze

Dirtbag

Docta Haze

Attachments

Bmg1982

Docta Haze

Docta Haze

Bmg1982

Docta Haze

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency