Possible lockout in living soil?

Docta Haze · Jan 29, 2020

Dirtbag said:
I really like the PC. Mine is extremely resilient and easy to grow, huge yield and very high cannabinoid content. Only downside if there is one is the flavour could be a bit stronger and easier to predict. Its flavour is really dependent on grow conditions and when its harvested. It can vary from smooth and kinda sweet if taken early in the window, to straight powerful diesel fuel that stings the nostrils if it's done right and harvested before trichs degrade to amber, then it turns hashy quick. All within about a week from week 9-10 or so.

Sounds like a very solid cultivar. I've only grown the Lemon OG Kush once, but its density, resistance to pests, and terp profile made me try it one more round. I normally like to try a variety of strains each grow. It's really cool you can follow the terp profile for the PC so closely. I love the diesel fuel effect, but I didn't get it out of my lemon og kush because I had to chop my last harvest early due to PM (contaminated GG4 clones ruined the harvest). As the lemon OG cured a little diesel appeared, but not enough!

Beachwalker said:
Pros: you've seen no mites and you have no little white dots indicative of where they bite and suck on the leaf, and they seem to be patterned out rather than grouped together randomly; and if all those were eggs I would expect to see some live mite activity by now

cons: you brought in outside plants, you've had mites, they look like eggs, particularly underneath the leaf

In particular your first pictures look like eggs, and this 2nd one
View attachment 935158
View attachment 935157

..lots more pros and cons! but again I just have a gut feeling, nothing more

I know you've got more than a casual eye on it so best wishes and let us know, great thread thanks for sharing!

I like your thought process! Here would be my pros and cons.

Pros: I've seen no mites, nor any symptom of them besides these egg looking capitate sessile trichomes and a nutrient deficient plant. The leaf curl seems to be a phenotypical feature. It actrually waxes and wanes with watering, and I don't consider this a sign of pathology...yet. Furthermore, this clone is probably a pretty old plant and its under an HPS, so it is not too surprising to me that it would have some trichomes as I prepare to flip.

Cons: I brought in two outside plants. However, my clones this time were purchased from a reputable distributor that encourages their clientele to use a microscope at the counter before buying. Furthermore, I haven't found anyone complaining on forums or on their instagram about pests. Fingers staying crossed.

I have dealt with spider mites twice before, firstly as an environmental issue when I was growing indoors in the humidity of Galicia, Spain (70%+ every day), and then my last grow I received two contaminated clones from local farmers that had spider mites and PM. I beat the spider mites (neem and persimillis @ 70% humidity), but I didn't beat the PM - live and learn. I'm growing this lemon OG now because it was amazingly resistant to the mold, and in case I haven't disinfected my tent enough I know it will make it until harvest.

Bmg1982 said:
Definitely curious where this thread goes as well. Those are two of the pics I've based my opinion on and look typical to eggs on a vegatative plant.

Capitate sessiles tend to start becoming more prominent in flowering plants. Those types of trichs are found on the underside of leaves, which was not my prior understanding, and I was wrong there.

I thought for sure OP would find an example of a cyclamen inside of the twisted new growth as that's the only time I've ever been able to get eyes on them but wasn't the case it seems.

Whats funny is a lot of these sessile vs. egg threads floating around the web seem to go the way of these debates we are having and all of them typically end with no answers.

I hope OP is able to get a final resolution and share his findings.

I appreciate you coming back and offering your perspective! I wouldn't have known to check for the actual mites in the new growth without your guidance, but as far as I can tell I am still mite free. Nevertheless, it's very difficult to get a thorough view of these tops compared to removing the leaves and looking at them while sitting. I hope I'm not missing anything, and I'll continue to report back.

It's interesting this issue hasn't met a resolution yet on other forums. I wonder if its because its hard to offer good microscope pics, and it's easy to misinterpret them whenever they are offered. If I don't end up finding any mites after this, I would definitely like to look at a cyclamen and russet infested plant, so I am better prepared in the future at identifying them.

Here are the plants a couple hours after lights on - I've spent so much time figuring out this apparent nutrient issue that the purple punch is starting to overgrow! It responded very well to a gallon of RO w/ 2g of citric acid + 2g of potassium bicarb solution followed by 1gal of ACT + kelp. I just flushed the lemon OG with the same regimen but dropped the citric acid and potassium bicarb to .5g and 1.5g respectively. The lemon OG isnt contorting from shock like the purple punch did, and I'm hopeful this helped!

The pH was 6.0 going in for the citric acid solution, and 6.5 coming out - 160ppm both in and out.

Bmg1982 · Jan 29, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Sounds like a very solid cultivar. I've only grown the Lemon OG Kush once, but its density, resistance to pests, and terp profile made me try it one more round. I normally like to try a variety of strains each grow. It's really cool you can follow the terp profile for the PC so closely. I love the diesel fuel effect, but I didn't get it out of my lemon og kush because I had to chop my last harvest early due to PM (contaminated GG4 clones ruined the harvest). As the lemon OG cured a little diesel appeared, but not enough!

I like your thought process! Here would be my pros and cons.

Pros: I've seen no mites, nor any symptom of them besides these egg looking capitate sessile trichomes and a nutrient deficient plant. The leaf curl seems to be a phenotypical feature. It actrually waxes and wanes with watering, and I don't consider this a sign of pathology...yet. Furthermore, this clone is probably a pretty old plant and its under an HPS, so it is not too surprising to me that it would have some trichomes as I prepare to flip.

Cons: I brought in two outside plants. However, my clones this time were purchased from a reputable distributor that encourages their clientele to use a microscope at the counter before buying. Furthermore, I haven't found anyone complaining on forums or on their instagram about pests. Fingers staying crossed.

I have dealt with spider mites twice before, firstly as an environmental issue when I was growing indoors in the humidity of Galicia, Spain (70%+ every day), and then my last grow I received two contaminated clones from local farmers that had spider mites and PM. I beat the spider mites (neem and persimillis @ 70% humidity), but I didn't beat the PM - live and learn. I'm growing this lemon OG now because it was amazingly resistant to the mold, and in case I haven't disinfected my tent enough I know it will make it until harvest.

I appreciate you coming back and offering your perspective! I wouldn't have known to check for the actual mites in the new growth without your guidance, but as far as I can tell I am still mite free. Nevertheless, it's very difficult to get a thorough view of these tops compared to removing the leaves and looking at them while sitting. I hope I'm not missing anything, and I'll continue to report back.

It's interesting this issue hasn't met a resolution yet on other forums. I wonder if its because its hard to offer good microscope pics, and it's easy to misinterpret them whenever they are offered. If I don't end up finding any mites after this, I would definitely like to look at a cyclamen and russet infested plant, so I am better prepared in the future at identifying them.

Here are the plants a couple hours after lights on - I've spent so much time figuring out this apparent nutrient issue that the purple punch is starting to overgrow! It responded very well to a gallon of RO w/ 2g of citric acid + 2g of potassium bicarb solution followed by 1gal of ACT + kelp. I just flushed the lemon OG with the same regimen but dropped the citric acid and potassium bicarb to .5g and 1.5g respectively. The lemon OG isnt contorting from shock like the purple punch did, and I'm hopeful this helped!

The pH was 6.0 going in for the citric acid solution, and 6.5 coming out - 160ppm both in and out.

Broad mites are the easiest to spot of the bunch and most common, their eggs are easy to identify as they tend to appear as "turtle shells" under a scope and generally will be placed sporadically throughout the leaves. These guys are quick and their feeding sites tend to appear as spider mite damage throughout the plant minus all the webbing.

Cyclamens hate light, they hide in the darkest crevices of new growth and are stationary. You won't see their feeding sites throughout a plant. They stick to new growth, and that new growth will typically start barreling upwards. That new growth will look like lack of nitrates, and as it grows out it will tend to look like a zinc and mag deficiency, or as if your lights are to close.

Typically once the pathogens kick in, your plant will start to look like a fucked up re veg throwing "even" numbered and deformed fingers as one of your plucked leaves indicate in first photos.

I think answers are few because broad mites are more common and easier to diagnose.

With cyclamen eggs it seems your left trying to determine sessile vs. egg. That's a hard determination to make as they are somewhat similar to fit and form.

If those are sessile trichs you are seeing, I'm curious as to why they are so damn cloudy or white as if your plant is ripening. Glandular trichs typically remain clear until harvest.

Dirtbag · Jan 29, 2020

Gotta say, this is an awesome thread in that it's been so civil. Nice to see a group of growers debate this diagnosis with such little ego and a real desire to help.

To back up what BMG is saying, it's TRUE you might never actually see a russet mite. I havent had them but a good friend fought them last year and he was never able to find a single one for weeks. Eventually he did find one and as BMG said they hide in the most impossible places.

What my buddy had for signs though was the leaves looked almost wet all the time, magnesium deficiency-like leaf patterns and severe canoeing at the base of each leaflet. Looked exactly like a bad nutrient deficiency.

I must say, there is the potential that you do have them, but without a positive ID on a live mite, Its just a guessing game. And my gut tells me you dont. I certainly wouldnt use those trichs/eggs as a diagnosis, they could be either and again its guessing. But I have to say I could be wrong... At the end of the day though I never recommend treating for a pest without a positive visual ID of the pest itself. So I guess.. keep looking man. Treat the suspected nutrient issues and keep monitoring for pests. I wouldnt discount that theory just yet.

Docta Haze · Jan 29, 2020

HiDaze said:
This thread made me curious. I didnt take time for photos under my scope but I can say the bottoms of my fan blades are absolutely covered with these sessile trichomes.

I can see a clear similarity to those pesky mite eggs we all hate. My plants are perfectly healthy and vibrant. Without definitively seeing a mite under inspection (sounds like you have been thurough) my gut points to an imbalance in soil or environmental errors.

Some plants love hovering around 75 - 80 ambient temps while other prefer 65 - 75. Maybe something like this is the problem.

My gut says flush that soil, read your ppms, test your water and come back at it.

I flushed the lemon OG plant today. It doesn't appear to be as heavily impacted as the MAC seems to be by these apparent nutrient issues. The Lemon OG still has yellowing tips that I read as a zinc deficiency, but I'm starting to question if its actually nutrient burn. The OG also has a very minor Mg deficiency on some of its smaller leaves towards the base of the stem underneath the canopy - not majorly concerning.

I flushed with 1gal of RO water mixed w/ .5g citric acid, and I used 1.5g potassium bicarb to pH it to 6.0 - it had about ~150ppms of dissolved solids. The runoff for this mixture read 6.5-7pH w/ ~150ppms. I am using pH drops, and a cheapo Zero-Filter TDS wand.

I continued to flush with an additional 1gal of ACT w/ 1tsp of Recharge and 1tsp of kelp meal mixed in before applying it. I understand kelp can help root growth, and a large root-ball will protect from phosphorus excess. I did not measure this runoff, though I probably should have...Doh!

The lemon OG and MAC seemed stunted to me, so I thought a drastic measure like a citric acid solution would help me clear up problems before flowering. I'm not going use citric acid on the MAC tomorrow. Instead I bought some mammoth p that I'll try. If this is a phosphorus issue I'm hoping the mammoth P will in some way release the phosphorus so I can flush it without citric acid.

Here's how the lemon OG reacted to the citric acid flush w/ ACT + kelp and Recharge. The leaves started to stretch up as if it were heat stress or intense praying.

Before flush:

6hrs after flush:

7hrs after flush:

Besides a little tacoing she's returned to normal nearly 8hrs after the flush. It seemed like a shock response, and I don't wanna put the MAC through that. In other news the purple punch decided that her last citric acid/ACT flush was the best thing since buttered toast and is invading my entire tent.

Docta Haze · Jan 29, 2020

Dirtbag said:
Gotta say, this is an awesome thread in that it's been so civil. Nice to see a group of growers debate this diagnosis with such little ego and a real desire to help.

To back up what BMG is saying, it's TRUE you might never actually see a russet mite. I havent had them but a good friend fought them last year and he was never able to find a single one for weeks. Eventually he did find one and as BMG said they hide in the most impossible places.

What my buddy had for signs though was the leaves looked almost wet all the time, magnesium deficiency-like leaf patterns and severe canoeing at the base of each leaflet. Looked exactly like a bad nutrient deficiency.

I must say, there is the potential that you do have them, but without a positive ID on a live mite, Its just a guessing game. And my gut tells me you dont. I certainly wouldnt use those trichs/eggs as a diagnosis, they could be either and again its guessing. But I have to say I could be wrong... At the end of the day though I never recommend treating for a pest without a positive visual ID of the pest itself. So I guess.. keep looking man. Treat the suspected nutrient issues and keep monitoring for pests. I wouldnt discount that theory just yet.

Thanks Dirtbag! lol I feel weird saying that now considering what your name means...but I mean it! These online platforms are all I have right now to learn and share information. I am an advocate for open source information sharing, and platforms like this provide a great opportunity for people to share a wealth of knowledge. I just find myself having to filter it all with constant skepticism and open mindedness.

Bmg1982 said:
Broad mites are the easiest to spot of the bunch and most common, their eggs are easy to identify as they tend to appear as "turtle shells" under a scope and generally will be placed sporadically throughout the leaves. These guys are quick and their feeding sites tend to appear as spider mite damage throughout the plant minus all the webbing.

Cyclamens hate light, they hide in the darkest crevices of new growth and are stationary. You won't see their feeding sites throughout a plant. They stick to new growth, and that new growth will typically start barreling upwards. That new growth will look like lack of nitrates, and as it grows out it will tend to look like a zinc and mag deficiency, or as if your lights are to close.

Typically once the pathogens kick in, your plant will start to look like a fucked up re veg throwing "even" numbered and deformed fingers as one of your plucked leaves indicate in first photos.

I think answers are few because broad mites are more common and easier to diagnose.

With cyclamen eggs it seems your left trying to determine sessile vs. egg. That's a hard determination to make as they are somewhat similar to fit and form.

If those are sessile trichs you are seeing, I'm curious as to why they are so damn cloudy or white as if your plant is ripening. Glandular trichs typically remain clear until harvest.

Cyclamens sounds like the absolute worst pest I could imagine, and I am still hoping I don't have them. Thank you so much for your help in trying to identify them. I'm really surprised I haven't come across them yet in in Ed Rosenthal's work, on reddit, youtube, or any of the other forums - not that I was looking. I'm curious now if I can find examples online of people dealing with this pest in their own garden.

Unfortunately it's very difficult for me to get a careful look into the new growth. So far I haven't seen a mite, but I'll continue to look until my plants tell me not to.

Bmg1982 · Jan 29, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Thanks Dirtbag! lol I feel weird saying that now considering what your name means...but I mean it! These online platforms are all I have right now to learn and share information. I am an advocate for open source information sharing, and platforms like this provide a great opportunity for people to share a wealth of knowledge. I just find myself having to filter it all with constant skepticism and open mindedness.

Cyclamens sounds like the absolute worst pest I could imagine, and I am still hoping I don't have them. Thank you so much for your help in trying to identify them. I'm really surprised I haven't come across them yet in in Ed Rosenthal's work, on reddit, youtube, or any of the other forums - not that I was looking. I'm curious now if I can find examples online of people dealing with this pest in their own garden.

Unfortunately it's very difficult for me to get a careful look into the new growth. So far I haven't seen a mite, but I'll continue to look until my plants tell me not to.

Cyclamen is pretty rare to a cannabis garden, typically these are the reason we see clearance plants at Lowe's and the likes, typically the unsuspecting girlfriend will bring these plants home thinking her awesome grower boyfriend can save it, with out knowing she just unleashed hell on your garden.

If you ever find yourself in this position, punt said houseplant as far as you can then chase it down to set fire to it.

If girlfriend bitches, blame it on dog, mine is always eating my spider plants so this excuse works for me.

Docta Haze · Jan 29, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
Cyclamen is pretty rare to a cannabis garden, typically these are the reason we see clearance plants at Lowe's and the likes, typically the unsuspecting girlfriend will bring these plants home thinking her awesome grower boyfriend can save it, with out knowing she just unleashed hell on your garden.

If you ever find yourself in this position, punt said houseplant as far as you can then chase it down to set fire to it.

If girlfriend bitches, blame it on dog, mine is always eating my spider plants so this excuse works for me.

Pro life tips right there lol. We invest too much into these plants to lose them to mites!

Bmg1982 · Jan 29, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Pro life tips right there lol. We invest too much into these plants to lose them to mites!

Haha it's a true story, that porch light we all appreciate to get in at night isn't going to do you any favors either. Moths and whiteflies typically gravitate towards those at night. You should see the shit those things will bring in the front door, most likely reason an indoor garden will get a broad infestation.

HiDaze · Jan 29, 2020

Docta Haze said:
I flushed the lemon OG plant today. It doesn't appear to be as heavily impacted as the MAC seems to be by these apparent nutrient issues. The Lemon OG still has yellowing tips that I read as a zinc deficiency, but I'm starting to question if its actually nutrient burn. The OG also has a very minor Mg deficiency on some of its smaller leaves towards the base of the stem underneath the canopy - not majorly concerning.

I flushed with 1gal of RO water mixed w/ .5g citric acid, and I used 1.5g potassium bicarb to pH it to 6.0 - it had about ~150ppms of dissolved solids. The runoff for this mixture read 6.5-7pH w/ ~150ppms. I am using pH drops, and a cheapo Zero-Filter TDS wand.

I continued to flush with an additional 1gal of ACT w/ 1tsp of Recharge and 1tsp of kelp meal mixed in before applying it. I understand kelp can help root growth, and a large root-ball will protect from phosphorus excess. I did not measure this runoff, though I probably should have...Doh!

The lemon OG and MAC seemed stunted to me, so I thought a drastic measure like a citric acid solution would help me clear up problems before flowering. I'm not going use citric acid on the MAC tomorrow. Instead I bought some mammoth p that I'll try. If this is a phosphorus issue I'm hoping the mammoth P will in some way release the phosphorus so I can flush it without citric acid.

Here's how the lemon OG reacted to the citric acid flush w/ ACT + kelp and Recharge. The leaves started to stretch up as if it were heat stress or intense praying.

Before flush:
View attachment 935452

6hrs after flush:
View attachment 935453

7hrs after flush:
View attachment 935454

Besides a little tacoing she's returned to normal nearly 8hrs after the flush. It seemed like a shock response, and I don't wanna put the MAC through that. In other news the purple punch decided that her last citric acid/ACT flush was the best thing since buttered toast and is invading my entire tent.

Could be the angle but looks like those leaves are lifting. Looking forward to their progression. Curious to see if they're reacting to the water intake or you've begun sorting out the issues.

fingers crossed brotha man!

Docta Haze · Feb 2, 2020

Update:

All three plants seem to be improving tremendously since flushing with 1gal of citric acid+potassium bicarbonate and 1gal of ACT+Recharge.

I flushed the MAC two days prior to the photos shown below. I used 2/3 gal solution of .5g citric acid and 1.5g Potassium bicarb diluted in 1gal of RO water, and I followed that with 1gal of ACT with a 1/4tsp of Recharge and an 1/8tsp of Mammoth P.

The MAC was the only plant to not show signs of stress or shock from the flush. The other two plants had contorted leaves for a few hours before returning to normal. I might have used too much citric acid or potassium bicarbonate with them. All my plants seem to be growing at least 2x as quickly than before the flush.

Flower day 1 MAC:

In sum, I think I added too much phosphorus enriched guano. I hoped that the citric acid would solubilize the phosphates and calcium phosphates, and that the additional microbes (Recharge and Mammoth P) would prevent the toxicity from further locking out micro-nutrients. As far as I can tell, the transpiration rates have improved on all plants. Their leaf temperatures are lower than they have been, which signals to me that they are transpiring more efficiently, and I can finally provide a greater light intensity. I am about 95% sure I don't have mites. I will never be 100% sure, but I haven't been able to spot any mite across weeks of scouting.

Therefore, I am comfortable in claiming the issue has been resolved for now, and I'll hope that these problems don't rebound as the plants progress into flower.

Thank you all for your attention and contribution to this thread. Good luck in everyone's grow and may your thumbs stay green!

HiDaze · Feb 2, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Update:

All three plants seem to be improving tremendously since flushing with 1gal of citric acid+potassium bicarbonate and 1gal of ACT+Recharge.

I flushed the MAC two days prior to the photos shown below. I used 2/3 gal solution of .5g citric acid and 1.5g Potassium bicarb diluted in 1gal of RO water, and I followed that with 1gal of ACT with a 1/4tsp of Recharge and an 1/8tsp of Mammoth P.

The MAC was the only plant to not show signs of stress or shock from the flush. The other two plants had contorted leaves for a few hours before returning to normal. I might have used too much citric acid or potassium bicarbonate with them. All my plants seem to be growing at least 2x as quickly than before the flush.

Flower day 1 MAC:
View attachment 936877
View attachment 936878

In sum, I think I added too much phosphorus enriched guano. I hoped that the citric acid would solubilize the phosphates and calcium phosphates, and that the additional microbes (Recharge and Mammoth P) would prevent the toxicity from further locking out micro-nutrients. As far as I can tell, the transpiration rates have improved on all plants. Their leaf temperatures are lower than they have been, which signals to me that they are transpiring more efficiently, and I can finally provide a greater light intensity. I am about 95% sure I don't have mites. I will never be 100% sure, but I haven't been able to spot any mite across weeks of scouting.

Therefore, I am comfortable in claiming the issue has been resolved for now, and I'll hope that these problems don't rebound as the plants progress into flower.

Thank you all for your attention and contribution to this thread. Good luck in everyone's grow and may your thumbs stay green!

Really glad to see them thriving. Great work, Doc!

Docta Haze · Feb 27, 2020

I purchased a Hanna Instruments soil pH probe, and I found the soil to be slightly alkaline for each of my plants. The top layer of each pot varied from 6.8-7.4 pH. More concerning, however, was that pH of the runoff water was reading as high as 7.8. I had not been able to test the runoff water using the pH droplets, so this is a new measure for me.

I bought the pH pen when I found my purple punch plant suddenly yellowing during the 3rd week of flower.

Week 1

Week 2

Week 3

Week 4

In an effort to reduce the pH of the soil I started flushing them on day 24 of flower with citric acid dissolved in mineral water.

The purple punch was flushed with two gallons of water. One gallon measured 4.4 pH and the second measured 5.2 pH. Their runoff pH was 7.5 and 7.4 respectively.

The MAC was flushed with 1.5 gallons. The first half of the flush was 4.9 pH and the second half was 5.8 pH with a runoff of 7.15 pH and 7.4 pH respectively.

Lemon OG was flushed with 2.5 gallons. The first part was 6.4 pH, the second 5.1 pH, and the third 4.8pH with their respective runoffs being 7.8 pH, 7.5 pH, and 7.4 pH.

The soil in the top layer of the pots now reads lower than before, and I am thinking the high runoff pH means there is a strong alkaline buffer in the soil potentially locking out nutrient uptake. I know pH swings are bad for plants, but I'm not sure how to help them from fading so early.

F26

MiteSuck · Jan 12, 2021

I’m dealing with this exact same dilemma on a pheno hunt right now. Resin glands or eggs w/ no adults found.

what a great thread. To the OP is this cycle still in motion ? How was the harvest? In the last photos posted it certainly doesn’t look like a mite infested garden

Possible lockout in living soil?

Possible lockout in living soil?

Docta Haze

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