Possible lockout in living soil?

[Dirtbag]

Are they in veg or flower? What spectrum of light?

Veg, about 4 weeks old under T5HO. But these are fairly old plants in general...

 

[Docta Haze]

Sorry. I didn't realize i posted a bad link. Here is another with the same info i quoted. And i apologize. I forgot those “hairs” on the leaf were non glandular trichomes. But bulbous trichomes i have seen as i said.

Medical Marijuana 101: Trichomes

Trichomes house the key components of the plant that give it its therapeutic and psychotropic properties, known as cannabinoids.

www.medicaljane.com

This is a fantastic trichome anatomy article. Thank you so much for sharing it! It's actually my first time visiting that website. It seems there are a lot of quality references throughout it. Awesome!!

Veg, about 4 weeks old under T5HO. But these are fairly old plants in general... View attachment 935079

So maybe the maturity of the plant increases the expression of the capitate-sessile trichomes. Do you know if those T5HO bulbs have any UV spectrum? Also have you had any phosphorus issues?

 

[Dirtbag]

This is a fantastic trichome anatomy article. Thank you so much for sharing it! It's actually my first time visiting that website. It seems there are a lot of quality references throughout it. Awesome!!



So maybe the maturity of the plant increases the expression of the capitate-sessile trichomes. Do you know if those T5HO bulbs have any UV spectrum? Also have you had any phosphorus issues?

I'm sure they have some minimal UV output but not much. No phosphorus issues here. I'm a proponent of low phosphorus feeds even throughout flower.

 

[Bmg1982]

I just posted to answer you above. But they are glandular according to the info but hold no canabanoids.

Basically non glandular are hair like. Glandular will have at the least a small stem and a head

I just posted to answer you above. But they are glandular according to the info but hold no canabanoids.

Ya

I just posted to answer you above. But they are glandular according to the info but hold no canabanoids.

Hmmm, well right you are. Then those must not be bulbous on the underside of the leaves, as those are definitely non glandular.

 

[Bmg1982]

Hey I just found this on reddit. Not sure on the credibility of the source, but at least I can identify the type of trichromes better, and I hope my pictures reveal a type of trichrome called Capitate-Sessile.

"Capitate-Sessile:

(approximately 25-220 micron resin head; one micron tall stalk) The second type of gland is much larger and much more numerous than the first. These are called capitate-sessile. Essentially meaning globular head attached without stalk. These glands actually do have a one cell high stalk, but it is not visible when observed by macro. Instead, the globular head seems to be sitting flush on the plant. The head is usually composed of eight to 16 cells that create a convex rosette formation. These head cells secrete cannabinoids and terpenes between that rosette and cuticle, resulting in a spherical shape."

"Capitate-sessile trichome (center) on cannabis leaf surrounded by non-glandular trichomes or cystolith hairs."
View attachment 935013

Honestly look at the scale here, look at the size of your capitate sessile compared to a non glandular. Look at the scale in your pics, those eggs are quite a bit bigger than your non glandulars

 

[Docta Haze]

I'm sure they have some minimal UV output but not much. No phosphorus issues here. I'm a proponent of low phosphorus feeds even throughout flower.

My first grow diary on here actually reported an over fertilization of phosphorus...when will I learn!?

The time has finally come for me to understand nutrient interactions and base cation saturation. I had to expedite this learning process while trouble shooting this grow, and I am much closer to understanding how organic and inorganic inputs affect this plant.

One of your plants has some some red stems, so I thought maybe there could be a phosphorus issue there. I also know this can be expressed in certain cultivars without being phosphorus deprived. It's nice to find a grower who is thoughtful about their phosphorus. Do you grow in living soils also? What's your preferred source of phosphorus?

Honestly look at the scale here, look at the size of your capitate sessile compared to a non glandular. Look at the scale in your pics, those eggs are quite a bit bigger than your non glandulars

I just grabbed another leaf to try to focus on the proportional size of everything. Here are two pictures one at 60x and one at 120x. On the left of the picture you can see the main vein (looks red) that runs through the middle of the leaf blade, as well the non-glandular and the capitate sessile. Do these proportions still seem far off?

60x

120x

 

[Bmg1982]

The problem I have with the capitate sessile theory is due to your early pics. They look clustered, and like eggs were laying on top of each other or within very close proximity.

Your glandular trichs will usually display a certain consistency in regards to their spacing and everything will be spaced fairly evenly.

If you want to get eyes on a cyclamen, look at one of your new growth sites, typically the ones that are yellow and twisted. Open it up and look deep within the crevices with your scope

 

[Docta Haze]

I found an article just now that claims the zinc lockout from excess phosphorus occurs due to a dilution effect. Here's the URL:

(PDF) Interaction Effects of Phosphorus and Zinc on their Uptake and 32P Absorption and Translocation in Sweet Corn (Zea mays var. Saccharata) Grown in a Tropical Soil

PDF | Zinc (Zn) and Phosphorus (P) interact with each other and this interaction can result in impact on the yield of corn plants. This study was... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

If calcium and phosphorus bind under conditions of phosphorus excess and produce calcium phosphate, and if zinc uptake is prevented via phosphorus dilution, then it would seem I need to break apart the calcium and flush away some of the phosphorus. Citric acid will dissolve calcium phosphate and essentially act as a flushing agent removing calcium phosphate as run off. Then additional calcium will continue binding to additional phosphorus (maybe?), and my problem continues. However, if I use mammoth p and the microbes break apart the calcium phosphate, that might keep the calcium available even in conditions of excess phosphorus. Does this make sense to anybody?

The problem I have with the capitate sessile theory is due to your early pics. They look clustered, and like eggs were laying on top of each other or within very close proximity.

Your glandular trichs will usually display a certain consistency in regards to their spacing and everything will be spaced fairly evenly.

If you want to get eyes on a cyclamen, look at one of your new growth sites, typically the ones that are yellow and twisted. Open it up and look deep within the crevices with your scope

I worry my earlier pics were not representing the actual state of the leaves. It was actually my first time capturing an image on my microscope. Part of the reason my intuition beckons me away from thinking that they're eggs, is because they are not stacked and they are distributed as I have seen thrichomes distributed. Also, this plant doesn't have new growth sites with yellow and twisted growth, nor do any of my other plants. At least that's how I see them. What do you think?

 

[Bmg1982]

I found an article just now that claims the zinc lockout from excess phosphorus occurs due to a dilution effect. Here's the URL:

(PDF) Interaction Effects of Phosphorus and Zinc on their Uptake and 32P Absorption and Translocation in Sweet Corn (Zea mays var. Saccharata) Grown in a Tropical Soil

PDF | Zinc (Zn) and Phosphorus (P) interact with each other and this interaction can result in impact on the yield of corn plants. This study was... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

If calcium and phosphorus bind under conditions of phosphorus excess and produce calcium phosphate, and if zinc uptake is prevented via phosphorus dilution, then it would seem I need to break apart the calcium and flush away some of the phosphorus. Citric acid will dissolve calcium phosphate and essentially act as a flushing agent removing calcium phosphate as run off. Then additional calcium will continue binding to additional phosphorus (maybe?), and my problem continues. However, if I use mammoth p and the microbes break apart the calcium phosphate, that might keep the calcium available even in conditions of excess phosphorus. Does this make sense to anybody?



I worry my earlier pics were not representing the actual state of the leaves. It was actually my first time capturing an image on my microscope. Part of the reason my intuition beckons me away from thinking that they're eggs, is because they are not stacked and they are distributed as I have seen thrichomes distributed. Also, this plant doesn't have new growth sites with yellow and twisted growth, nor do any of my other plants. At least that's how I see them. What do you think?

I've never checked for ripeness via the bottom of my fan leaves.

I scope my plants often, as I've run the gammut with both broads and cyclamens and never see those round abnormalities on the underside of my fan leaves, just un-glandular trichs. I practice a weekly IPM now due to my experiences.

Your plants you photo'd earlier are still the same plants and i noticed a bunch of fan leaves cupping upwards, and with twisting and cupping new growth, and I see it in your new pics as well.

The fan leaves you plucked where showing signs of 7th finger deformity and regression which is typically the sign of a pathogenic attack.

Won't hurt anyone to open up those new growth sites and scope em. You"ll most likely get your answers.

 

[Docta Haze]

I've never checked for ripeness via the bottom of my fan leaves.

I scope my plants often, as I've run the gammut with both broads and cyclamens and never see those round abnormalities on the underside of my fan leaves, just un-glandular trichs. I practice a weekly IPM now due to my experiences.

Your plants you photo'd earlier are still the same plants and i noticed a bunch of fan leaves cupping upwards, and with twisting and cupping new growth, and I see it in your new pics as well.

The fan leaves you plucked where showing signs of 7th finger deformity and regression which is typically the sign of a pathogenic attack.

Won't hurt anyone to open up those new growth sites and scope em. You"ll most likely get your answers.

When you were working with broads and cyclamens did you notice the round abnormalities underneath the leaves like mine have?

I'll take a peak at those new growth sites now and look around.

Edit:

No luck.

I looked for as long as my eyes would allow. My eyes are exhausted from using the microscope for hours today. I checked each top the best I could and found no evidence of mites.

I did notice the same looking sessile thrichomes buried under a heavy carpet of non-glandular trichomes on the new growth. The non-glandular trichomes are especially dense on the new growth, and it's hard to a imagine a mite getting through it to lay an egg. It could lay one on top of them, but it's hard for me to see how they could get past a dense criss-crosing carpet of them to lay one. I'll spend these next few days checking my tops as closely as I can to make sure.

Thank you for help!

 

[HiDaze]

This thread made me curious. I didnt take time for photos under my scope but I can say the bottoms of my fan blades are absolutely covered with these sessile trichomes.

I can see a clear similarity to those pesky mite eggs we all hate. My plants are perfectly healthy and vibrant. Without definitively seeing a mite under inspection (sounds like you have been thurough) my gut points to an imbalance in soil or environmental errors.

Some plants love hovering around 75 - 80 ambient temps while other prefer 65 - 75. Maybe something like this is the problem.

My gut says flush that soil, read your ppms, test your water and come back at it.

 

[Bmg1982]

When you were working with broads and cyclamens did you notice the round abnormalities underneath the leaves like mine have?

I'll take a peak at those new growth sites now and look around.

Edit:

No luck.

I looked for as long as my eyes would allow. My eyes are exhausted from using the microscope for hours today. I checked each top the best I could and found no evidence of mites.

I did notice the same looking sessile thrichomes buried under a heavy carpet of non-glandular trichomes on the new growth. The non-glandular trichomes are especially dense on the new growth, and it's hard to a imagine a mite getting through it to lay an egg. It could lay one on top of them, but it's hard for me to see how they could get past a dense criss-crosing carpet of them to lay one. I'll spend these next few days checking my tops as closely as I can to make sure.

Thank you for help!

When you were working with broads and cyclamens did you notice the round abnormalities underneath the leaves like mine have?

I'll take a peak at those new growth sites now and look around.

Edit:

No luck.

I looked for as long as my eyes would allow. My eyes are exhausted from using the microscope for hours today. I checked each top the best I could and found no evidence of mites.

I did notice the same looking sessile thrichomes buried under a heavy carpet of non-glandular trichomes on the new growth. The non-glandular trichomes are especially dense on the new growth, and it's hard to a imagine a mite getting through it to lay an egg. It could lay one on top of them, but it's hard for me to see how they could get past a dense criss-crosing carpet of them to lay one. I'll spend these next few days checking my tops as closely as I can to make sure.

Thank you for help!

Well I'm definitely curious as to what you find, wish your grow the best.

 

[Docta Haze]

This thread made me curious. I didnt take time for photos under my scope but I can say the bottoms of my fan blades are absolutely covered with these sessile trichomes.

I can see a clear similarity to those pesky mites we all hate. My plants are perfectly healthy and vibrant. Without definitively seeing a mite under inspection (sounds like you have been thurough) my gut points to an imbalance in soil or environmental errors.

Some plants love hovering around 75 - 80 ambient temps while other prefer 65 - 75. Maybe something like this is the problem.

My gut says flush that soil, read your ppms, test your water and come back at it.

HiDaze! Thank you for your input. It's great to read that you are finding similarly looking sessile trichomes under your fan leaves. I forgot to check my ppm run off when I flushed my purple punch plant yesterday. I'm going to flush my lemon og tomorrow with 1gal of RO water and .5g of citric acid (not sure if i'll add a bunch of potassium bicarb this time), and then immediately after I'll water 1gal of ACT. I'll check the ppms after each 1gal, and report back tomorrow.

My plan is to flush the MAC after I see how the lemon OG responds. I'll decide if I should go the citric acid route or with mammoth P. The reason I am using citric acid at all is because Phosphorus doesn't leach away easily. And citric acid is a natural plant exudate that will dissolve calcium phosphate and flush it out. Unfortunately it lowers the pH of the RO water, and I'm not sure if I should correct it with potassium bicarb. I ended up adding equal parts potassium bicarb for my last flush (i.e. 2gram citric acid and 2gram of potassium bicarb). That seemed like too much. pH was at 6.0 and runoff was at 6.5. Without the potassium bicarb the pH of RO+citric acid is like 4. Using pH drops to measure.

Edit:

also, I'm not so sure my environment caused this as much as it might have exacerbated it. When I was using my IR thermometer I noticed the leaves of the MAC were 1-2 degrees higher than the other two plants. This means it wasn't transpiring sufficiently to protect itself from the 300w HPS. It developed symptoms of heat stress, and I backed the light way off of it to 20-24" and situated the hps on the far side of the tent from it.

Well I'm definitely curious as to what you find, wish your grow the best.

Thank you Bmg! Your input to this thread pushed me to work harder than I was at first willing to go. Nevertheless, I appreciate that, because it will only be helpful to me in the end. I feel like we were able to draw attention to sessile thrichomes in a positive way, and I hopefully did not distract from a possible infestation. Only time will tell. I'll be sure to report back at the first sign of any mite!

Cheers and happy growing!

 

[HiDaze]

Completely side bar observation here. I am impressed how considerate / respectful everyone on this forum behaves toward one another.

I have seen several polite, "I am sorry you dont agree; this is what I see..." sorts of comments.

That's all. Good on everyone

 

[Docta Haze]

Completely side bar observation here. I am impressed how considerate / respectful everyone on this forum behaves toward one another.

I have seen several polite, "I am sorry you dont agree; this is what I see..." sorts of comments.

That's all. Good on everyone

We have to work to create the forum we want to part of. I'm interested in learning and helping others learn. This is always done well if we can see eye to eye. I could have panicked at the start of the forum and adamantly claimed I don't have an infestation just to shut the inquiry down. But the whole point of this thread is to solicit inquiry, and I'll learn to handle each one as I go. Overall, I learned something at the very least about trichome anatomy, and that wouldn't have happened without keeping an open mind.

I've been working without stop today with my microscope and researching online trying to figure out my plant's issue - I haven't even found time to pack my vape!

Time to finally light one up! Cheers everybody

3x3 tent at lights out:

 

[Dirtbag]

My first grow diary on here actually reported an over fertilization of phosphorus...when will I learn!?

The time has finally come for me to understand nutrient interactions and base cation saturation. I had to expedite this learning process while trouble shooting this grow, and I am much closer to understanding how organic and inorganic inputs affect this plant.

One of your plants has some some red stems, so I thought maybe there could be a phosphorus issue there. I also know this can be expressed in certain cultivars without being phosphorus deprived. It's nice to find a grower who is thoughtful about their phosphorus. Do you grow in living soils also? What's your preferred source of phosphorus?



I just grabbed another leaf to try to focus on the proportional size of everything. Here are two pictures one at 60x and one at 120x. On the left of the picture you can see the main vein (looks red) that runs through the middle of the leaf blade, as well the non-glandular and the capitate sessile. Do these proportions still seem far off?

60x
View attachment 935081

120x
View attachment 935082

Lol yeah that's why I took the pic down, I figured someone could easily mistake that for P deficiency. That's my violator kush cut, it has purple pinstriped stems no matter what. All the plants around it show none of that. And Im growing in rockwool using botanicare pbp grow and a bit of calmag since I use rainwater with 0ppm to start.

This is the platinum cookies that also shows the same trichs on the bottom of the fan leaves.

 

[Docta Haze]

Lol yeah that's why I took the pic down, I figured someone could easily mistake that for P deficiency. That's my violator kush cut, it has purple pinstriped stems no matter what. All the plants around it show none of that. And Im growing in rockwool using botanicare pbp grow and a bit of calmag since I use rainwater with 0ppm to start.

This is the platinum cookies that also shows the same trichs on the bottom of the fan leaves.View attachment 935146

Excellent! Thank you for checking those trichs out and reporting here. As time passes I'm feeling more and more confident I don't have a tent full of eggs.

How do you like platinum cookies? I haven't tried durban poison yet, or any of the cookies besides GMO. I was super happy to find the MAC cut - besides the hype at least I can try my hand at some of the cookies genetics. Its been the most finicky plant I've grown lol. I'm also growing Lemon OG kush which might have similar morphology and cannabinoid profile to your platinum cookies. Mine grew really dense and short with thick stems, super pungent and a narcotic happy effect. Pretty nice after a long day of work. I still gotta find me a good day time strain. It used to be Gorilla Glue4, then it was Jack 47 (Herer x ak47), and I botched my yields during my last grow - I'm about to run out of the last of my Lemon OG now. I'll be heading out to the Michigan rec market soon.

 

[Dirtbag]

I really like the PC. Mine is extremely resilient and easy to grow, huge yield and very high cannabinoid content. Only downside if there is one is the flavour could be a bit stronger and easier to predict. Its flavour is really dependent on grow conditions and when its harvested. It can vary from smooth and kinda sweet if taken early in the window, to straight powerful diesel fuel that stings the nostrils if it's done right and harvested before trichs degrade to amber, then it turns hashy quick. All within about a week from week 9-10 or so.

 

[Beachwalker]

What plant are you looking at exactly? How is it being grown and how old is it? Is it in vegetative? Under what spectrum?

I've just taken another leaf off of my purple punch (another extremely resinous plant...so they say), and I found another variety of what appear to me to be capitate-sessile trichomes. It could be that this infestation is full blown in my tent, but they scream out to me as being trichomes. Their distribution is just as I see it when I am checking for trichome maturity.

I purchased these clones on black friday, and they have been underneath a 300w MH, a 130w QB LED, and a 300w HPS during their time with me. If anything now I am wondering if the added UV rays from the LED influenced this.

Pros: you've seen no mites and you have no little white dots indicative of where they bite and suck on the leaf, and they seem to be patterned out rather than grouped together randomly; and if all those were eggs I would expect to see some live mite activity by now

cons: you brought in outside plants, you've had mites, they look like eggs, particularly underneath the leaf

In particular your first pictures look like eggs, and this 2nd one

..lots more pros and cons! but again I just have a gut feeling, nothing more

I know you've got more than a casual eye on it so best wishes and let us know, great thread thanks for sharing!

 

[Bmg1982]

Pros: you've seen no mites and you have no little white dots indicative of where they bite and suck on the leaf, and they seem to be patterned out rather than grouped together randomly; and if all those were eggs I would expect to see some live mite activity by now

cons: you brought in outside plants, you've had mites, they look like eggs, particularly underneath the leaf

In particular your first pictures look like eggs, and this 2nd one
View attachment 935158
View attachment 935157

..lots more pros and cons! but again I just have a gut feeling, nothing more

I know you've got more than a casual eye on it so best wishes and let us know, great thread thanks for sharing!

Definitely curious where this thread goes as well. Those are two of the pics I've based my opinion on and look typical to eggs on a vegatative plant.

Capitate sessiles tend to start becoming more prominent in flowering plants. Those types of trichs are found on the underside of leaves, which was not my prior understanding, and I was wrong there.

I thought for sure OP would find an example of a cyclamen inside of the twisted new growth as that's the only time I've ever been able to get eyes on them but wasn't the case it seems.

Whats funny is a lot of these sessile vs. egg threads floating around the web seem to go the way of these debates we are having and all of them typically end with no answers.

I hope OP is able to get a final resolution and share his findings.