Potency Theories!

[caveman4.20]

Yo squiggly does VPD play a role in potency???

 

[DrBudACola]

it's proven science bro, I don't waste my time on b.s.
Again I don't feel like searching for the proof but I know tis true and I've tested it for over a decade personally. fwiw

edit: If I came across where I read that I'll gladly share it with you but it was a few to several years ago and it reinforced what I had experienced for a long time, fwiw

BabyG;
I appreciate your experience. And thanks for the insight!
DrB

 

[DrBudACola]

Interesting;
The idea that a cross can exceed the potency of its parents makes sense as it was explained.
Can someone tell me an instance where a cross resulted in a strain which was more potent than either of its parents?

 

[PurpleSticky]

Well, if you've ever heard that the potency of marijuana since the 70s has increased a ton, then all crosses got stronger.

If the only plants that survive each generation are the more potent ones, those are the ones that are going to pass on the potent genetic.

 

[squiggly]

Interesting;
The idea that a cross can exceed the potency of its parents makes sense as it was explained.
Can someone tell me an instance where a cross resulted in a strain which was more potent than either of its parents?

Every decent strain in existence today is an example of this.

Potency of MJ strains has increased exponentially over the last 40 years--through selective breeding.

There was a time when 20 joints was equal to one of today's--and weed came by the garbage bag.

 

[squiggly]

Yo squiggly does VPD play a role in potency???

Is that a part of the environment?

 

[squiggly]

Flushed herb is slightly weaker than not as flushed herb! NOt to say you don't need a flush but if you flush for 2-3 weeks versus 7-10days, and didn't seriously overfeed during the cycle the 7-10days IME is always more potent and tested higher at labs...

This would be incredibly difficult to prove scientifically.Well, maybe not difficult--but it would be cumbersome and things would need to be dealt with in a significantly different way than what we're used to seeing in grow houses.

You'd need something like these: http://www.conviron.com/
just to start--then from that point you'd need to make sure that your plants are being harvested at precisely the same age, one flushed and one not flushed.

It would also be necessary to take samples from the beginning of flush through to the end--to confirm that potency was increasing as a function of increased flushing.

We'd need to plot all this out and do regression analysis to find the mechanism. We'd need to look at standard deviation to quantify the effect.

There really is a huge amount of stuff that goes into making a true "scientific" determination.

Generally, when it comes to science, the most boring stuff is the most important. Nothing demonstrates this better than a ruler. A ruler generally will go down to a measurement sensitivity of 1mm. What happens, though, if your measurement is ~101.5mm. That last 0.5mm is a guess, because the ruler is not accurate down to that level.

90% of science is not making the discovery, but instead proving that you've made it through error analysis. You must prove first that you measurement is correct--and then you must prove that any differences are significant (through statistical analysis and regression).

This is why science is so limited by instrumentation--if we could just say something were science simply by making a general observation, we'd be totally inundated with questionable measurements and analysis. This, in particular, is the reason for peer review.

Often, when academic papers are rejected--it is because error analysis and calibration data is missing. Without these, any and all measurements are useless scientifically speaking.

From an experience level, things are very different--and so far be it from me to say what your experience has or has not been. As is always the case with science, when the answer is not known, a negative also cannot be proven. Which is to say that you could be 100% right about this, if science were a person it's answer to this would be "I don't know", however.

 

[squiggly]

Just as a follow up to the "error analysis" comment--to illustrate what I really mean by this, I offer an example that I have on hand from my undergrad of what a "Treatment of Data" or "Error Analysis" section usually looks like (my dickhead professor required us to type this up--have been lucky to avoid this since then, most just allow us to do the calculations by hand and turn that in with a typed report).

You'll notice that in many places values are reported as "value +/- a smaller value" this describes the error in my measurement. Any scientific paper in the world which fails to do this will be thrown in the trash pile as a submission to any journal--and will be given a terrible grade if turned in as an assignment (and may cause you to be fired from your job, if you're in industry).

Treatment of Data
Speed of Sound CalculationArgon @ 295.15K and ~1606Hz
c = λƒ
c = (19.92x10-2 ±0.0009m)(1606 ± 24 cycles/second) (9.96x10-2 ±0.00046m = λ/2 for Ar @ 1600Hz)
c = 320 ±4 m/s

Propagation of Error:
c = λƒ ⇒

=

=

= 0.012664

∆c = (0.012664)(c)
∆c = (0.012664)(319.915 m/s)

= 4 m/sc = 320 ±4m/s


Theoretical Heat Capacity Ratio Calculation (Equipartition Theorem)
With Vibrational Degrees of Freedom (Air)Um = (dof)(1/2 RT) (dof for a diatomic molecule = 7)[2] Um = (7)(1/2 RT)
Um = (7/2)(RT)

Cv,m = (∂Um / ∂T)v
Cv,m = (∂Um / ∂T)v = 7/2R = 29.09 J/mol-K
Cp,m = Cv,m + 8.314 J/mol-K
Cp,m = 29.09 J/mol-K + 8.314 J/mol-K = 37.40 J/mol-K γ = Cp,m / Cv,mγ = 37.40/ 29.09 = 1.3
Without Vibrational Degrees of Freedom (Air)
Um = (dof)(1/2 RT) (dof for a diatomic molecule neglecting vibrational dof = 5)[2] Um = (5)(1/2 RT)
Um = (5/2)(RT)

Cv,m = (∂Um / ∂T)v
Cv,m = (∂Um / ∂T)v = 5/2R = 20.79 J/mol-K
Cp,m = Cv,m + 8.314 J/mol-K
Cp,m = 20.79 J/mol-K + 8.314 J/mol-K = 29.09 J/mol-K γ = Cp,m / Cv,mγ = 29.09/ 20.79 = 1.4




The big nasty equations didn't carry over, but they take the general form:

Where we're solving for the variance of z or [delta]z (where [delta]z^2 is shown above)--and each variable [w, x, y] describes something which effects that particular value (so if we're measuring pressure of a gas, the number of molecules of gas, the volume of the gas, the temperature--etc, anything that affects the pressure). The funny looking d symbol is the symbol for partial derivatives. What that means is that this shit isn't just a walk in the park--it's calculus III (at a minimum difficulty level, and its on in the Diff EQ and beyond if you're doing a "real" experiment).

This stuff might seem out of context (because its very chemistry oriented, rather than biology)--but believe you, me, I've done plenty of biology and biochemistry lab work--and this is ubiquitous. This is the stuff that holds the sciences together, we're all relying on the math guys.

For lack of a better way to say it--this stuff sucks ass. It requires incredible attention to detail--and having it hold any significance requires reducing the number of variables in your experiment down to a minimum (which is INCREDIBLY difficult to do in biological systems).

End of the day, a math equation doesn't even come close to describing what's at play--at least not one that's solvable. We can use it as a guide if and only if we are anal dickhead sons of bitches when it comes to taking our measurements, designing our experiments, and controlling (eliminating) confounding factors [of which there are too many to count].

 

[caveman4.20]

Is that a part of the environment?

Vapor Pressure Defecit it is the temp and humidity part of environment there is a deficit created when the RH is too low or too high for a specific Temp....
Lets say a tropical plant does not tolerate the droubt if VPD is indeed the reason its because the stoma or stomata you prolly know the term im thinking is closed and the plant does this to preserve whatever moisture it has etc. etc. we'll have more to talk about it as soon as you remember because i bet you already know or read about it somewhere

 

[squiggly]

Vapor Pressure Defecit it is the temp and humidity part of environment there is a deficit created when the RH is too low or too high for a specific Temp....
Lets say a tropical plant does not tolerate the droubt if VPD is indeed the reason its because the stoma or stomata you prolly know the term im thinking is closed and the plant does this to preserve whatever moisture it has etc. etc. we'll have more to talk about it as soon as you remember because i bet you already know or read about it somewhere

I was trying to get you to answer your own question.

We already discussed how even the tiniest changes in environment have an effect on gene expression/regulation, and thus growth of the plant. The answer is, yes--VPD can have an effect on potency--because VPD is an environmental factor.

 

[caveman4.20]

Interesting;
The idea that a cross can exceed the potency of its parents makes sense as it was explained.
Can someone tell me an instance where a cross resulted in a strain which was more potent than either of its parents?

Catatonic X have siblings that express atleast 5 different thc to cbd ratios and your lucky if you get the 1:1 ratio and thats just a couple of elements when weed has so many different oils its crazy?

SQUIGLY when your board
Check out Casual Statistical Reasoning its where philosophy meets statistics:
It would also be necessary to take samples from the beginning of flush through to the end--to confirm that potency was increasing as a function of increased flushing.

 

[caveman4.20]

Thanks i figured that but you respond by articulating a much further understanding and to my surprise you didn this time how refreshing!

 

[caveman4.20]

So VPD and droubt stress and the plants ability to respond does or may increase potency of course its got to be done perfect right to increase potency but too much droubt can shock or worse FREAK a plant out man what happened to this plant grows itself and KISS and all that but i love trying to learn more about it this is one of the many ways so please feel free to continue brainstorming farmers

 

[squiggly]

So VPD and droubt stress and the plants ability to respond does or may increase potency of course its got to be done perfect right to increase potency but too much droubt can shock or worse FREAK a plant out man what happened to this plant grows itself and KISS and all that but i love trying to learn more about it this is one of the many ways so please feel free to continue brainstorming farmers

I'm of the mind that drought conditions are likely to increase production of oils/terpenes. WITHIN REASON (and if applied at the correct time).

Just from a functionality standpoint, as a chemist I look at two things these chemicals are:

1. Hydrophobic.
2. UV-absorptive.

The hydrophobicity being stacked up on the outside can keep water from escaping--the same way that a waxy coating would on a cactus or just about anything really.

The UV absorption to me is, first and foremost, a known purpose of trichomes on everything from arabidopsis to cannabis (in my opinion)--and second it seems a pretty obvious adaptation.

UV radiation is really nasty stuff and just about everything on the planet has an advanced biological system for dealing with it. Many plants are known to do this with their trichomes (if not all of them, any botanists around?)--but at the same time just the perfect energies associated with many of the molecules in cannabis for absorbing UV is astounding.

Tiny chemistry lesson, going to leave a lot out, but just take my word for it.

Light is made of photons, photons have different energies--corresponding to frequency and wavelength. In a sense, to be a "UV" light particle a photon must have a specific energy.

When a molecule absorbs a photon--its doing so through interaction with an electron. In order to absorb a photon at a particular energy, there must be a free electron in the valence shell of that molecule which possess an EXACT MATCH to the energy of the photon in order for the absorption to take place.

This is because electrons exist in DISCRETE energy levels--and so something has to have the precise correct energy to knock it out of place. You can think of a photon with too much/little energy as being "out of phase" with the electrons, such that they can never interact.

There's a lot of chemical reasoning and experiments which demonstrate all of this--but without having to go into all of that, just suffice it to say that the idea that most of the compounds in the trichome are degradable by light is pretty telling (to my mind).

The idea, from the plants perspective, is that if light is degrading the compound--its not degrading my DNA, which is important to an organism. It is for essentially that same reason that some humans have darker skin and others have lighter. It is by no coincidence that darker skin correlates to distance from the equator (where UV bombardment is often at its highest).

Its also worth mentioning that many of the reactions involving synthesis of cannabinoids and terpenes include the elmination of water from a molecule (hence the creation of a water molecule which is now available to the plant). In this way the plant can work from both ends, produce some of its own water--while simultaneously protecting itself from losing too much.

 

[caveman4.20]

ya i understood enough to ask how should the 10k bulb be used ? Could there be a benefit in using it all through veg and maybe all of flowering too?

 

[squiggly]

I'd put it on in the middle of flowering--and leave maybe a week to 1.5 weeks to recover at the end of flower (i.e. turn it off).

The light degradation of the actives is pretty potent, you'll want to be reducing intensity as u get closer to harvest IMO.

 

[caveman4.20]

if i start with a 1k should i finish at a 400w

 

[caveman4.20]

and im diminishing light .5 hr ever week the last month

 

[Dirty White Boy]

I gotta disagree, 10k bulbs are fantastic through the whole process, the key too a productive set up is balance. Its why control greenhouses call everything an environmental stress not factor. I would certainly never cut back intensity at one of the most crucial points of fruiting. You can however let a plant die on the vine and then lower intensity.

 

[caveman4.20]

I disagree ....outside is the control group as far as environment so in the fall or at the end of any perreniel light diminishes and becomes less intense its natural process plus...the sun is degrading the crystals after a certain point... you ever notice or ill put it this way my plants in my garden smell the best to me at about week 5 on an 8 week finisher and 8 on a 12 week finisher, indoor that is growing the method you suggest how i did in the past which was blast em with intensity till they cant take it no more and yield is great dont get me wrong but potency is where i like to be