Questions on yields

[The Joker]

Hey ,

I'm new to organics and still finding my way around. I'm not a true believer, I'm just trying to find an easier way.

I asked PureGreen at TCC what he did because he has some of the best looking plants I've ever seen. I just did what he did or what I thought he did .
I aso asked Sannie.

I've used all new genetics from seed for my first organic runs so I can't compare to past grows. Now I'm using clones I've grown a few times so I will be able to say if it's better or worse.

What I've learned:

Organic plants seem to need a much longer veg and bigger pots.
They are less sensitive to temp swings.
Less likely to over react to missing a watering.
Yields are way lower.
Taste is hard to manipulate like what you can do with chem supplements. You get whatever you get. Not better, just different.
Sannie's Bacto works as well as ACT ( way easier) but it's much cheaper to make ACT.
Nothing about ACT is stealthy. You can't smell my plants, but you can smell the bucket of that stuff, so it's a little tough for security.


Can you get decent yields using 16 3 gallon pots growing organically? With chem ferts in soil less or hydro, that's easy. But how do people do it with organics? Big tubs? Longer veg? Taller plants?

I'm about to do the Pepsi challenge. I'm growing some Blueberry with GH 3 part and Budswell in soil less and some organic in soil less with wormcastings and perlite. I'm going to send buds out for a blind taste test and see if someone can really tell the difference. * Calling Sea Maiden or Tobor, just about the only posters I trust.*

So for you growers who aren't satisfied with buds that are good for macros or OG Kush type tiny buds, what do you do with your organics to increase yields and resin?

 

[mike hunt]

Veg longer, and super crop your plants to increase yield.

 

[The Joker]

That's it, no special sauce with organics?

Veg longer. *sigh*

So what I've learned.... you will pay more in electrical because of increased veg time.

 

[waayne]

Longer veg......
super crop and, or LST
Always transplant before they get root bound.
It's important not to interrupt organic soil plants momentum>>>
if you're after top yields.
For bigger yields in organic soil you need a big healthy root mass >>>>large containers really help.
I like to flower in 10 - 20 gallon containers.
I start veg in 1/2 gallon containers and then 2'sor 3's and finish veg in 5's or 7s.
I usually veg 7-9 weeks
Yields vary from strain to strain from 7oz - 17oz per plant.
Yields are never gonna be like Hydro but the quality of properly dialed in Organics is AAA+ :pimp:

 

[CAPO]

sounds about right Joker...but at best any "organic grows" utilizing bottled nutes are only 50% or 51% organic to OMRI standards. They are what I call Hybrid Organics. So are we comparing bottled nutes to dry nutes or something else all together.
I can attest to you that my previous round using GO was absolutely phenomenal in every way. This round I switched back to 3 part with a weakly tea. Less spectacular smell and frost, but only marginally. No difference in yield or vigor..just a slight difference in the end product.
I would give GO another round, but I am eager to return to Botanicare and try the CNS-17..I was not completely happy with Pro-Blend so I dropped it years ago.
I'm gonna save the "Organics" to the veggie garden where I can utilize compost. I'll stay satisfied with partially organic bottled nutes for my indoor experiences where I can easily tweak my recipe to satisfy any picky residents.
..But if you can make indoor plants happy and yourself happier with nothing but supped soil and microbes...more power to you..100% veganic and using no salts...is more like a religion than a process. The Pepsi challenge wouldn't hold up IMVHO...with a skilled grower anyway.

 

[mrbong73]

Longer veg......
super crop and, or LST
Always transplant before they get root bound.
It's important not to interrupt organic soil plants momentum>>>
if you're after top yields.
For bigger yields in organic soil you need a big healthy root mass >>>>large containers really help.
I like to flower in 10 - 20 gallon containers.
I start veg in 1/2 gallon containers and then 2'sor 3's and finish veg in 5's or 7s.
I usually veg 7-9 weeks
Yields vary from strain to strain from 7oz - 17oz per plant.
Yields are never gonna be like Hydro but the quality of properly dialed in Organics is AAA+ :pimp:

Can't argue with waayne's results. His product is the baddest of the bad from what I've seen.
I am curious however if there would be any noticable difference by transplanting into the final pot size earlier to let a mycorrhizal association develop without disturbing it with an extra transplant. Assuming you are using AM fungi.
It's my personal crazy ass belief that if you put together a solid soil mix, add high quality food sources and humic/fulvic acid, top dress amendments at the right times, etc. etc. you can bring out the most the plant genetics can offer.
But I could be wrong.
mrb

 

[The Joker]

It's important not to interrupt organic soil plants momentum>>>

So does up potting do that? I start in a quart , go to 2 gallon then up pot to 3 gallons. 6 branches pistil whipped.

 

[waayne]

Can't argue with waayne's results. His product is the baddest of the bad from what I've seen.
I am curious however if there would be any noticable difference by transplanting into the final pot size earlier to let a mycorrhizal association develop without disturbing it with an extra transplant. Assuming you are using AM fungi.
It's my personal crazy ass belief that if you put together a solid soil mix, add high quality food sources and humic/fulvic acid, top dress amendments at the right times, etc. etc. you can bring out the most the plant genetics can offer.
But I could be wrong.
mrb

mr. bong73 I failed to include that info, and yes the transplant into the last container is 10-12 days before they are placed in the flower room>>I experimented on when to do the last transplant and this is what works best for my garden.
I do use soil benes, I stop applying them after the plants are 14 days into flower.
Here's Super Skunk Alien and Grass Knuckles with no additional food except for 2 doses of mild tea in flower.
No Age Old or additional food except for the tea....These were transplanted appropriately into 20 gallon Smart Pots
of Black Gold and Roots Organic......

 

[waayne]

It's important not to interrupt organic soil plants momentum>>>

So does up potting do that? I start in a quart , go to 2 gallon then up pot to 3 gallons. 6 branches pistil whipped.

Joker transplanting them before they become root bound is key. :pimp:
When they become root bound growth slows
They will perk up after a transplant but for fastest growth
always transplant them before they become root bound.

 

[TheHybridVigor]

Is it possible to eliminate the need for transplanting by starting the plants in a large container at week 3-4 of veg with something like a smart pot that promotes lateral feeder root growth?

 

[Stankie]

Why not just start them in 20 gallon Smart Pots?

 

[true grit]

Because of over saturation. Theres no point in giving a plant too much to grow into and leave yourself with less control.

Joker- How long you vegging? 16 in 3g on a 4x4 should hit 2p's NO problem...even with little veg. I don't find it hard to achieve 2oz+ in organics even with a so so veg (1 month). Unless I'm going into containers that are 10-20g, i usually wouldn't do more than a month veg. In 18g pots- 5-6+ all day. Even in 7-10g, hittin a q isn't too hard. Know some folks that consistently nail 2-4oz in 3g with some decent training.

If you are worried about veg time, why not veg in soiless with organics til ready and then drop in soil? Did that for this organic run, got plants cranking, dumped in 5g soil and in within a week or so they are blowing up. Altogether 4-5wks veg, but most the growth was in the last week or so in soil. Never really had issues with giant bushes and veg in organics. And coming from doing more plants, less veg, smaller smart pots, and coco- I still haven't hit some of the yields I did in organic with verts. Period.

Its all subjective as I'm sure you know. But just start one with some yields guaranteed and start working necessary size to flip and hit weight. And on that note...going from organic soil, to coco and now soil for ease/necessity I can say this- the organics IMO do smoke differently. Call it what you will. I don't think theres a potency difference at all, just difference in stank. As in my organics done right, WAY outstink the slightly sweeter chem'd out versions of same cut. Not necessary less, smell or flavor in the least- just not the raw organic lingerin stank. Took some runs of the same cuts for me to come to conclusion...but hey so it goes. And honestly out of all the bud ive grown, the super soil mixes still produced the tastiest bud and tremendous yields if done right.

 

[Green Mopho]

And on that note...going from organic soil, to coco and now soil for ease/necessity I can say this- the organics IMO do smoke differently. Call it what you will. I don't think theres a potency difference at all, just difference in stank. As in my organics done right, WAY outstink the slightly sweeter chem'd out versions of same cut. Not necessary less, smell or flavor in the least- just not the raw organic lingerin stank. Took some runs of the same cuts for me to come to conclusion...but hey so it goes. And honestly out of all the bud ive grown, the super soil mixes still produced the tastiest bud and tremendous yields if done right.

I have noticed this myself. Took me a while to notice, and probably just as long to admit it to myself. Hydro just comes easier to me, been doing it for years, I'm new to organics and far from dialing in yields, but enjoying the smoke that comes out of it and learning every step of the way.

You think the super soil mix is the way to go for yields? Super large volumes of soil and cook times on it? I'm having good results so far with just mildly amended ProMix and feeding organic teas every watering, seems to work. Just gotta find a decent recipe that someone else is already doing, learn it, and then tweak it to make it work for you and your strains, IMHO.

 

[The Joker]

Height is issue.'6'foot ceiling.'1k bulb, so tall is not an option.'I veg in a cab that fits 8 2 gals. Been trying to be perpetual 8 at a time. I can only fit 6 3 gallons in the cab.
Been up potting then flipping. Could be the issue.
Trying Sannies tabs again. They promoted vigorous growth. Tried without and it's much slower. Just using ACT.
Part of my limitation is space. No space for filling a kiddie pool like subcool and aging the dirt. Using Promix with worm castings and perlite.
My goal is two zips per bucket.
Trial and error.

 

[Seamaiden]

I think it's really a balancing act. You can either choose flavor and quality as the aspects of the plant you're going to focus on, or yield. This is exactly why I went to coco for growing indoors, as you know it's really easy to hit that 300%+ use rates with PG&E, so I just couldn't do the veg time required for soil to gain yields comparable to coco. However, you can't really treat coco like soil and that alone has an effect, but adding chemical fertilizers seems to make the biggest difference.

I spent the last year growing out strains in coco indoors that I had grown the previous year outside in organic soil, so I had a LOT of weed that I was able to do direct side-by-sides with and the difference was remarkable.

 

[soopy]

I agree with Waanye and MrBong73 in that momentum is key. I've heard it called "the Wave". The hard part is not stalling the plant at any point.

 

[mrbong73]

If I may be so bold as to suggest some additives to some of the soil mixes presented.
Start with whatever bagged soil mix/aeration components you like.
To that add 15-20% quality earthworm castings and if possible another 15-20% quality compost.

That's the base.
To that add 1 cup organic all purpose and 1 cup organic "flower/bud and bloom" dry fert mix. Gardner and Bloome or equal. (per cubic ft)

edit: Can't forget the K-Mag/Sul-Po-Mag (1cup/cf) Great stuff! top dress in flower also. Also, dissolve some in water and mix in when watering and foliar.

Depending on the ingredients of the above product, you could add in more alfalfa meal (1 cup/cf), kelp meal (1/2 cup/cf), neem seed meal (1/2-1 cup/cf), etc.

I would also suggest a calcium source such as gypsum, oyster shell, and one of the limes (lots of people use dolomite) any one or a combo at (1.5 cups/cf)

Then if you really want to get crazy you can add some rock dusts. Go nuts and put 4-6 cups per cf. Or whatever you feel comfortable with.

Mix all this up on a tarp or something, shovel it into a trash can or something and water it with a ACT. Then let it sit and cook for a couple/three weeks and it will be ready.

Just a suggestion

mrb

 

[The Joker]

large black 3ml contractor Bags work for storing soil for reuse.
I am trying Sannies tabs this round again which I have a feeling contain the shopping list above.
And yes, since I got my Smart Meter my rates went through the roof. I was hoping more plants would cut down veg time. I was happy with the weed I was growin!

Again, I've only grown new strains from seed in organics. This round will be the first from familiar clones... Pure Kush... Chemdog D ... blueberry ...
It may be that sativa Dom plants are the way go.

Thanks for the tips. I was hoping it wasn't an either or situation.

 

[true grit]

I have noticed this myself. Took me a while to notice, and probably just as long to admit it to myself. Hydro just comes easier to me, been doing it for years, I'm new to organics and far from dialing in yields, but enjoying the smoke that comes out of it and learning every step of the way.

You think the super soil mix is the way to go for yields? Super large volumes of soil and cook times on it? I'm having good results so far with just mildly amended ProMix and feeding organic teas every watering, seems to work. Just gotta find a decent recipe that someone else is already doing, learn it, and then tweak it to make it work for you and your strains, IMHO.

Yeah the biggest part for me was acknowledging to myself that even though coco is so simple, fail proof and i throw crazy dank- the organic was simply different and to my smells- what id prefer. just stanky.

As for super soil and yields- i found that easiest simply because i used larger containers, more veg time, and only had to water the whole cycle. This run I just went with 5g smart pots of 707 soil and have been feeding my old Age Old regimen and things look great. I will post back on yields after this run for sure and will be tossing a few extra in 7g with super soil to see as well (wouldnt run less then 7-10g for sub super mix).

Height is issue.'6'foot ceiling.'1k bulb, so tall is not an option.'I veg in a cab that fits 8 2 gals. Been trying to be perpetual 8 at a time. I can only fit 6 3 gallons in the cab.
Been up potting then flipping. Could be the issue.
Trying Sannies tabs again. They promoted vigorous growth. Tried without and it's much slower. Just using ACT.
Part of my limitation is space. No space for filling a kiddie pool like subcool and aging the dirt. Using Promix with worm castings and perlite.
My goal is two zips per bucket.
Trial and error.

Sounds like the issue more so will be training, if you can fit 8 2g's. that should be plenty to start lst'ing, supercropping and getting plants ready to sit under a screen. screens, whether used as scrogs or just as support will help keep the canopy where you need and with enough training to get tops, 2oz/pop should be attainable. If you are only have space for 6 3g- i would most def say use smart/air pots and train those 6 well with a screen.

As for mixing- if you got a bedroom/kitchen floor to lay down a tarp for mixing and space for a good 32g trash can or two to sit around- you have plenty of space to mix your own soil. personally though i wouldnt do a sub style mix in less than 7g. I found there was a fine line between too hot too early, too much too late, and running out about as you need to.

I think it's really a balancing act. You can either choose flavor and quality as the aspects of the plant you're going to focus on, or yield. This is exactly why I went to coco for growing indoors, as you know it's really easy to hit that 300%+ use rates with PG&E, so I just couldn't do the veg time required for soil to gain yields comparable to coco. However, you can't really treat coco like soil and that alone has an effect, but adding chemical fertilizers seems to make the biggest difference.

I spent the last year growing out strains in coco indoors that I had grown the previous year outside in organic soil, so I had a LOT of weed that I was able to do direct side-by-sides with and the difference was remarkable.

Are you veggin with t-5s? I gave up all my 1k MH's and only use t5s now. I often even turn those to half bulb stregth for veg..so about 200-300w. 4 of those will veg a full 10x10 and only use 1600w max. like i said i use mine half strength until ready to flip then turn on all t5's.

though i don't believe there is a focus factor on either/or for yield vs. quality/flavor, i understand what you are saying. my coco never sacrificed smell/taste/quality or yield, But i can honestly say it is a "different" product than my organics. And like I said organics yields were pretty much the same. think it just comes down to preference. some folks like my coco buds and some like organics. Just depends on crowd and palette.

If I may be so bold as to suggest some additives to some of the soil mixes presented.
Start with whatever bagged soil mix/aeration components you like.
To that add 15-20% quality earthworm castings and if possible another 15-20% quality compost.

That's the base.
To that add 1 cup organic all purpose and 1 cup organic "flower/bud and bloom" dry fert mix. Gardner and Bloome or equal. (per cubic ft)

edit: Can't forget the K-Mag/Sul-Po-Mag (1cup/cf) Great stuff! top dress in flower also. Also, dissolve some in water and mix in when watering and foliar.

Depending on the ingredients of the above product, you could add in more alfalfa meal (1 cup/cf), kelp meal (1/2 cup/cf), neem seed meal (1/2-1 cup/cf), etc.

I would also suggest a calcium source such as gypsum, oyster shell, and one of the limes (lots of people use dolomite) any one or a combo at (1.5 cups/cf)

Then if you really want to get crazy you can add some rock dusts. Go nuts and put 4-6 cups per cf. Or whatever you feel comfortable with.

Mix all this up on a tarp or something, shovel it into a trash can or something and water it with a ACT. Then let it sit and cook for a couple/three weeks and it will be ready.

Just a suggestion

mrb

Think at this point of trial and error, doin a random mix will only eliminate Joker's ability to eliminate variables and maintain utmost control over grow space. I love the custom mixes, but until they are dialed per strain/local water/etc- there is some dialing needed.

large black 3ml contractor Bags work for storing soil for reuse.
I am trying Sannies tabs this round again which I have a feeling contain the shopping list above.
And yes, since I got my Smart Meter my rates went through the roof. I was hoping more plants would cut down veg time. I was happy with the weed I was growin!

Again, I've only grown new strains from seed in organics. This round will be the first from familiar clones... Pure Kush... Chemdog D ... blueberry ...
It may be that sativa Dom plants are the way go.

Thanks for the tips. I was hoping it wasn't an either or situation.

I wouldnt run PK in soil as it yields terribly low already. Homies that run it in soil just do it for headies- not for yield in the least. The Chemdog D will be a good yielder regardless and IMO a good plant to start dialing with. I haven't got a crack at that blueberry, but looking at Chemdog D branching/node spacing/stretch. Less veg and ok training will be needed. What kind of flip height/training/yield did it take on the BB to get desired goals?

 

[dextr0]

Think at this point of trial and error, doin a random mix will only eliminate Joker's ability to eliminate variables and maintain utmost control over grow space. I love the custom mixes, but until they are dialed per strain/local water/etc- there is some dialing needed.

Its not a random mix though homeboy its what he worked on to eliminate variables. Hes telling dude do this, and saying unless u dont know about plants and how to boost them, u cannot go wrong with this mix. It keeps insects at bay eliminating that. Puts enough food for microbes and plants to live together and beneficiary without being specific. Basically you just water ( or tea for the ones who have to) then work your boosters. If you feel its not putting out. Unless he wants to clarify that.
Im kind of confused on what we use as boosters in bloom in organics. Im thinking foliar feeding but this is me thinking. Anyway...
But I think what were are all saying is a happy plant will produce. Sick and underfed will not. Get this mix and work with it. Its a very good start.