Regenerative blower HELP (Sweetwater ½ HP regenerative blower and diffuser hose)

[snowkitty]

Farmers, it is time to help snowkitty out here. I’m growing in krusty style in four buckets in a 10x10 room. My goal is to aerate a 2.5 inch nutrient solution that is a lower bucket, below the one containing the plant.

I’ve got a Sweetwater ½ HP regenerative blower (Model S31) plumbed to a 4 ½ foot section of PVC. ¼ inch brass barbed fittings are screwed into the PVC pipe.

Then 5/16” clear flexible hose is used to send air to hoops of Alita’s silicone rubber diffuser hose. The hoops are about 10.5” in diameter and sit in a 12” paint bucket.

My performance out of the hose hoops is POOR.
So I checked the performance out of my barbed fittings and it’s a weak airflow too.
So I took the PVC entirely off and put my hand up to the outlet of the blower. I am able to press my hand against the outlet and hold it there for a moment…should I be able to do that or should I be getting more air delivery right out of the outlet?

I have read the regenerative blowers are “low pressure high volume delivery.” I’m not shy to admit that I not 100% sure what that means, and googling how regen blowers work as not given me any wisdom so far… I know they are for aquarium set-ups. I first read that a 1/8 HP was sufficient but my partner laughed at me and made me agree to a 1/3 HP and then talked me up again to a 1/2 HP. After seeing my sad, sad, sad little bubbles I am so glad that I didn’t cheap out any more.

Here is where I am stuck. Did I

(a) buy too small a blower at ½ HP? How much bigger do I need to go than this $600 model? To something with 220V?
(b) get a defective blower that I should be expecting different performance out of?
(c) plumb this entire set-up wrong somehow?

Here is the blower selection:
Based off the performance curves, I expected to get about 50 CFM in a few inches of water for S31:

I will get on the phone with tech support tomorrow morning…ugh I can’t afford not to have this working…please help me out if you have ever used a regenerative blower or got a better grade in high school physics than I did…

:animal0048:

 

[pikes peak 69]

I use a Spencer 1/2hp with 50 cfm for 4 buckets.I ran a 1 1/2" pvc line all the way from blower to each bucket and have more air then I know what to do with. Some if not all regens can be vacuum as well, did you hook up as blower and not as vacuum? Switch the in/out and see if that's it. Other than that I'm stumped for now, it's late, sorry I can't do better for you.

pp69

Farmers, it is time to help snowkitty out here. I’m growing in krusty style in four buckets in a 10x10 room. My goal is to aerate a 2.5 inch nutrient solution that is a lower bucket, below the one containing the plant.

I’ve got a Sweetwater ½ HP regenerative blower (Model S31) plumbed to a 4 ½ foot section of PVC. ¼ inch brass barbed fittings are screwed into the PVC pipe.

Then 5/16” clear flexible hose is used to send air to hoops of Alita’s silicone rubber diffuser hose. The hoops are about 10.5” in diameter and sit in a 12” paint bucket.

My performance out of the hose hoops is POOR.
So I checked the performance out of my barbed fittings and it’s a weak airflow too.
So I took the PVC entirely off and put my hand up to the outlet of the blower. I am able to press my hand against the outlet and hold it there for a moment…should I be able to do that or should I be getting more air delivery right out of the outlet?

I have read the regenerative blowers are “low pressure high volume delivery.” I’m not shy to admit that I not 100% sure what that means, and googling how regen blowers work as not given me any wisdom so far… I know they are for aquarium set-ups. I first read that a 1/8 HP was sufficient but my partner laughed at me and made me agree to a 1/3 HP and then talked me up again to a 1/2 HP. After seeing my sad, sad, sad little bubbles I am so glad that I didn’t cheap out any more.

Here is where I am stuck. Did I

(a) buy too small a blower at ½ HP? How much bigger do I need to go than this $600 model? To something with 220V?
(b) get a defective blower that I should be expecting different performance out of?
(c) plumb this entire set-up wrong somehow?

Here is the blower selection:
Based off the performance curves, I expected to get about 50 CFM in a few inches of water for S31:

I will get on the phone with tech support tomorrow morning…ugh I can’t afford not to have this working…please help me out if you have ever used a regenerative blower or got a better grade in high school physics than I did…

:animal0048:

 

[snowkitty]

I use a Spencer 1/2hp with 50 cfm for 4 buckets.I ran a 1 1/2" pvc line all the way from blower to each bucket and have more air then I know what to do with.

So we are identical in nearly all respects. I have a 1/2 HP blower with 50 cfm for 4 buckets. It's equipped with a 1 1/2" flexible hose that I ran into a 1 1/2" PVC pipe.

OK, that makes me feel better...my blower specs match the number of buckets I want to run...

I am coming off my PVC into 5/16" clear flexible hose....is that my problem? Do I need to keep the pipe size big all the way to the bucket? You told me in my other thread that you tee off the 1 1/2" pvc to each bucket where you have sweetwater glass diffusers. How exactly do you step it down?

I guess I still don't know if what I have out of my outlet is "enough" and then I have a plumbing problem, or if I'm somehow not getting "enough" out of the outlet due to a blower malfunction or improper assembly on my part (not that there really was much assembly).

The definition of "enough" = whatever amount PP69 is getting to his four buckets!!

Some if not all regens can be vacuum as well, did you hook up as blower and not as vacuum? Switch the in/out and see if that's it. Other than that I'm stumped for now, it's late, sorry I can't do better for you.

Good point...I double checked and I've got the intake air filter and muffler on the "IN" port and the flex hose screwed into the "OUT" port. I am getting air out of the blower...just not enough to do anything really in my nutrient solution. Sad, pathetic little bubbles.

I've got a DIY aero cloner with a $100 active aqua air compressor that is getting WAY more bubble action in 10" of water. I feel like I should be seeing at least comparable air action to that, no?

Thanks for chiming in late at night...I'm up all night tearing my hair out and at least now I am no longer paranoid that I was supposed to drop $2000 on a blower instead of the $580 this one cost.

 

[snowkitty]

Here's some additional information about the aeration device I am using. I got the design from BlindDate on ICMag. I followed BlindDate’s directions in assembling the hoops below.

McMaster Carr 3/16" lead wire run thru the inside to weigh the assembly down.
US Plastics 1/2" to 1/4" reducing tees:

Here it is going into a bucket with no water:

 

[pikes peak 69]

Trying to dig up some pics.
I don't reduce the feed size. I ran 1 1/2" pvc all the way into my bottom buckets. I use 18 gal rubbermaid, soon to upgrade to JK's lower buckets
Also looking at your loop, I notice the 5/16 going into larger 1/2". I think that may be a problem because the 5/16 will never move as much air as the 1/2 can use. I don't understand everything about flow rates and orifice size but I know that moving from small to large reduces the flow. I would try going from your 1 1/2 put a tee to reduce to 1" and then when you get to outside of your bucket I would reduce to 1/2 and maybe go thru the side of bucket instead of wiggling thru the space between the 2 buckets.

Ok I'll try and attach a few pics of mine.
I don't have any pics of the froth though sorry.
These stones are 1 1/2 square x 12" long 1/2" threaded.

Here's some additional information about the aeration device I am using. I got the design from BlindDate on ICMag. I followed BlindDate’s directions in assembling the hoops below.

McMaster Carr 3/16" lead wire run thru the inside to weigh the assembly down.
US Plastics 1/2" to 1/4" reducing tees:

Here it is going into a bucket with no water:

 

[snowkitty]

The new title of this post is
Snowkitty learns the difference between a regenerative blower and an air compressor, the hard way

PP69, your pics are worth a thousand words...a lightbulb has gone off for me. I was trying to follow a hoop design by BlindDate that you can see in this thread: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=44663

BD uses the 1/4" to 1/2" tees to make the hoops out of the 1/2" silicone diffuser hose I am using. BUT I think he must be using an air compressor and not a regenerative blower. That's why he has the 1/4" air feedlines...those are krusty sized air feedlines. krusty = thomas air compressor

What I did was take advice from a bunch of people on a few sites who all use the porous rigid PVC...although it didn't occur to me at the time that everyone I was talking to was using a significantly larger diameter aeration device from the get-go. That design is more suited for the regenerative blower before, like you say...

I don't reduce the feed size. I ran 1 1/2" pvc all the way into my bottom buckets.

You said it right there...you don't reduce the feed size on your regen blower...that's where I am getting my losses in performance. I've got 3+ feet of my 5/16" clear vinyl tubing (the 5/16" tubing is what fits on the 1/4" fittings at both ends).

I would try going from your 1 1/2 put a tee to reduce to 1" and then when you get to outside of your bucket I would reduce to 1/2 and maybe go thru the side of bucket instead of wiggling thru the space between the 2 buckets.

PP69 if you consider yourself a student of JK then you are spot-on!! He gave me the same advice in another thread, but I made my post on this site waaaay too late into my bucket design process for me to be able to process and use what he said. Here it is:

I would feed the Bottom bucket with a 1/2" thru-hull fitting from a 1" feed coming off a 1.5" main feed line. I would plumb each bucket so it could receive the full flow from the blower to one bucket at a time, to clean out your hose.

So, if I want to use a regenerative blower like mine, I need to keep the pipe at 1.5" as long as possible. I am thinking I would run a square of rigid PVC in the middle of my buckets...like 3x3 feet. Then go tap off into 1" rigid PVC to each bucket.

My silicon diffuser hose is 1/2" diameter. So I need tees that are 1/2" at all ends (instead of having the smaller inlet port like I have now).

That means the only challenge is getting my 1/2" of air flow through my bucket wall. Both PP69 and JK are saying that I'm going to have to go through the side...and that doesn't work with my current bucket design. The only easy way I see to go through the side would be to trash my current bottom buckets and replace them with bigger square ones like you guys use. But I'm going to see what I can try from Home Depot today, getting 1/2" of air down the side of the bucket. It might not be possible but the whole experiment will be under twenty bucks so I don't care. It's really, really late in my game to replace my bottom buckets so I'm not rushing out to do that, even though I am making a pro/con list about different designs.

I can not find a picture of JK's buckets anywhere...does someone have a link?

 

[snowkitty]

SK has three choices this afternoon:

1. Get 1/2" fittings through my bucket sidewalls somehow and plumb this all with rigid PVC in the largest diameter possible.

2. Throw away my bottom buckets and re-design so that it is straightforward to get a 1/2" thru-hull fitting through the side. (Square Rubbermaid bottom bucket.)

3. Return the Sweetwater regenerative blower and buy an air compressor. My bucket design is derived from krusty, and he used an air compressor with 1/4 air feed lines to his aeration hose.

I am leaning towards option #3 right now.

I reject option #2 because my buckets and drainage are done, my clones are nearly ready, and I can't afford to delay any longer on getting a harvest...I am so far in the hole already. I reject option #1 because my buckets just aren't meant for this type of plumbing so it really would be more appropriate to re-design the bucket if I was dead-set on having a 1/2" fitting through the side wall.

I'll get the right equipment for the job (option #3) and I think then I will see the performance I expected.

SO what kind of air compressor have any of you used? I want to make sure I size mine right.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

I am at the end of a cycle I will try and get back to you tomorrow when I have my coffee. You are right about the pipe size,check for thru hull fitting. Vacuum breakers do just that, break vacuum. Look at dishwashers for RV.s for this part. PP69 has been in buckets longer then me, so his advice is as good as mine. I will show you a pic of my bottom bucket tomorrow or leave a link. JK

 

[snowkitty]

New plan this morning: I'm going to try to plumb this thing to my regenerative blower one last time. Based on advice from a plumbing angel who showed up in my life yesterday, I plan to make a 6 ft. diameter center manifold out of 1.5" flexible potable water hose. I will tee of that to each bucket with 0.5" hose and go down the space between the buckets. Then I am changing my silicone rubber diffuser hoops so that they are 0.5" tees all around, to receive air from the tap line.

Shopping list:
20ft of 1.5" diameter flexibe PVC hose for center manifold
10ft of 0.5" diameter flexible PVC hose for (4) tap off lines
(4) 1.5" to 0.5" reducing tees for the manifold

The one thing I already own from some other stuff I was doing:
(4) 0.5" tees to connect the silicone diffuser hose hoop to the air tap line

 

[Jalisco Kid]

I would put 2 1/2" fitting in your bottom bucket. This way you pump air to your diffuser from both sides. This gives you a balanced air flow. I would do something like this for your main line also. I will put up my bottom bucket when I return this afternoon. I would think about trashing your bottom bucket design. If you can not afford a bucket like mine I would consider using Ice chests for your bottom bucket. JK
I would also consider using pvc to plumb with also.

 

[snowkitty]

PVC was the only thing available so I am going to plumb with that...which you advised. I haven't slept for more than a few hours in three days so I'm taking a nap before I attempt to do anything with the 1.5" PVC I bought.

Plan to make a square manifold in the middle of my buckets and tap off with a 0.5" polyethelyene tube.

Using two 0.5" inputs to each bottom bucket is a great idea...thanks...that's perfect for not reducing the volume of airflow.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

Run a balance tube down the middle of that square.
This here is one of the prototypes of my bottom buckets.It also has a 2 inch drain on the bottom that I prefer.The 3 middle 1/2" fitting are for misters. JK

 

[Ultimate Grow]

very good!

 

[snowkitty]

Run a balance tube down the middle of that square.

JK, are you talking about my square manifold or about your buckets? If you are talking about my manifold, do you mean a rod just for balance or one that is plumbed into the airflow?

If you are talking about your buckets, I've seen the PVC tee you use as a stablizer down the center. Very nice. I printed out the picture and your directions to make my own someday.

 

[snowkitty]

JK, we decided this morning to listen to the chorus and change the bottom bucket. What is yours made out of? What is that large port on the side?

 

[Jalisco Kid]

The port hole is to check out your roots,misters,airlines, and drain. The tube is to balance your air runs, so that you have equal pressure.
They are made out of thick heavy marine grade plastic with all fitting threaded.

 

[snowkitty]

Do you make them yourself out of plastic or is it a pre-made thing for some other purpose? I saw them called gm1000s in the other krusty thread but I didn't know if that was your word or what.

So, do you use those ports to pull your roots out of your drain line if you need to? Is that your main way of preventing drain clogs? How often do you check them and do you worry about light?

I think right now I plan to go with 10 gallon Rubbermaid Brutes. I saw you say that you'd do a 5gal in a 9gal if you were crazy enough to try two buckets together, which you're not. :) I can get the 10gal Brutes easy enough to make this PVC plumbing work for my set-up.