remove all leaves?

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

ever notice the top growers on the net have a shit load of fans / spacing

the room is built wrong or your not running the proper lighting if the light is not getting down deep. ( running a 1k ? maybe a 600 down low would do the trick ??? maybe the guys running glass on his 1k lights for heat issues .., not good, a sign the room is built wrong from the start ect ...... ) but as you said people can try solving issues any way they can and have different grow methods ...

peace my brotha'

HookedonPonics · Apr 24, 2014

Defoliating is totally strain dependent, and how you clean up indoor is completely different than how you clean up outdoor. Ive seen many great growers running horizontal rooms defoliate and de-larf bottoms and after stretch clip large fans to maximize yield, look at jackmayoffer thread he defoliates most fans and claims to have done MANY side by sides and that defoliating at correct times always led to more flower at canopy level, are you saying his rooms are built wrong or 40kw isnt enough lighting? Theres plenty of info on this topic, I even read a field study on the UC Davis website about defoliating leafy greens for yield. Your correct that leaves are translucent, they only reflect the green spectrum and allow lumens to pass right through them, but the reason we chop node regions and leaves from bottoms and areas that are too far from your light source to produce is because your plant only produces X amount of hormones during its lifetime. If you get rid of all the larf before your plant begins to develop flowers, it will focus all of those hormones on the flowers and growth youve left up top, hense giving you the same yield just no larf. If you chop nodes or bottom leaves after buds have developed you are just chopping yield. At the same time you shouldnt ever chop more than 30% of shaded leaves EVER simply because lower leaves act as storage centers for mobile nutrients your plant is saving for later. After your plants have finished stretch, I would only defoliate major leaves that are blocking air flow or cramming onto buds. Theres hundreds of ways to skin this cat, id just play with it, document it, and see what works for your strains/setup.

Tnelz · Apr 24, 2014

HookedonPonics said:
Defoliating is totally strain dependent, and how you clean up indoor is completely different than how you clean up outdoor. Ive seen many great growers running horizontal rooms defoliate and de-larf bottoms and after stretch clip large fans to maximize yield, look at jackmayoffer thread he defoliates most fans and claims to have done MANY side by sides and that defoliating at correct times always led to more flower at canopy level, are you saying his rooms are built wrong or 40kw isnt enough lighting? Theres plenty of info on this topic, I even read a field study on the UC Davis website about defoliating leafy greens for yield. Your correct that leaves are translucent, they only reflect the green spectrum and allow lumens to pass right through them, but the reason we chop node regions and leaves from bottoms and areas that are too far from your light source to produce is because your plant only produces X amount of hormones during its lifetime. If you get rid of all the larf before your plant begins to develop flowers, it will focus all of those hormones on the flowers and growth youve left up top, hense giving you the same yield just no larf. If you chop nodes or bottom leaves after buds have developed you are just chopping yield. At the same time you shouldnt ever chop more than 30% of shaded leaves EVER simply because lower leaves act as storage centers for mobile nutrients your plant is saving for later. After your plants have finished stretch, I would only defoliate major leaves that are blocking air flow or cramming onto buds. Theres hundreds of ways to skin this cat, id just play with it, document it, and see what works for your strains/setup.

Well said.

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

Jack has a dialed room with fans everywhere & the proper height, lighting, root growth and flowering times working in his favor. Hes looking for lil trees.

Someone veg'n for 60 days with plants too close, heat issues, glass over a 1k, and working in a basement with height contributing to his problems now is working with many issues from the start that are causing problems ...that have his plants growing at 1/2 potential down low ....

He should have a 600 so it can get low or he should use another growing style for enviro. All the ducting venting heat is a huge warning from step one your not setting up a proper grow in that space your plants are living in. So now you gotta move that air, are the plants getting fresh air or co2 at the proper rate ( im sure jacks room is dialed like no other / co2 rates ... )

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

leaves transpiring, because of heat issues and air flow within that space are key. and it happens at different rates as you factor in heat, humidity, feedings , health .... a dialed room is like a rubiks cube .... every move changes other things requiring an adjustment till it all balances.

So in my eyes, ripping up the fans ( motors ) on a plant is crazy & its other issues that are causing you less then stellar buds down deep on the plant.

Greenthumb4 · Apr 24, 2014

Off topic but can anyone tell me whats a good brand of cfls to use?

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

Greenthumb4 said:
Off topic but can anyone tell me whats a good brand of cfls to use?

Grab some 32 or 42 watters, 2000 plus lumens

HookedonPonics · Apr 24, 2014

So if what you say is true that airflow and lighting contribute to not having to defoliate? Why would jack still defoliate if his enviroment is optimal? Small plants would give you even less reason to need them to be cleaned up and he still does so for yield. And of course if you have a ton of other issues you will produce half as much, what does that have to do with the topic? Majority of your plants transpiration happens during your night cycle and is effected by temps, RH, etc in the day like you said. But that doesnt effect my cleaning method because anything I chop down low before stretch, is replaced up top during stretch. Where it will get more light, which is converted into more heat which is photosynthesized and leads to more transpiration when your plants are putting on weight.

Greenthumb4 · Apr 24, 2014

I mean brand like im thinking about useing Phillips 40w 2700k

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

HookedonPonics said:
So if what you say is true that airflow and lighting contribute to not having to defoliate? Why would jack still defoliate if his enviroment is optimal? Small plants would give you even less reason to need them to be cleaned up and he still does so for yield. And of course if you have a ton of other issues you will produce half as much, what does that have to do with the topic? Majority of your plants transpiration happens during your night cycle and is effected by temps, RH, etc in the day like you said. But that doesnt effect my cleaning method because anything I chop down low before stretch, is replaced up top during stretch. Where it will get more light, which is converted into more heat which is photosynthesized and leads to more transpiration when your plants are putting on weight.

Jack is growing tops from what I understand for high production.

In his style, with og's lets say he knows going in the tops are the $$$ for his cost per sqft yield which is his #1 priority above all else. Its a balancing act, hes in hydro so he needs oxygen down below, no fans in the middle so maybe he needs the very bottoms opened up for proper airflow in the middle of the large room with dead spaces( co2 transpiring issues ) that he does not want ... ? or in a small space grow in smaller buckets / bags so the roots keep the entire plant tight.

Outdoors ? My plants get a lot of air flow nothing restricts it. Thats very important again, look at an old tree farm the tight trees with the lower 2/3 rd's all dead & unkept ...
No air flow ...., they could not grow out like the root system life force was asking for .... broken grow from day one ..... So are you cleaning out the lowers cuz ' of dead growth by poor planning regarding space / air / production.

HookedonPonics · Apr 24, 2014

Everyone is growing for tops, who grows for larf? Sweet pic btw. Outdoor you will get chunks all the way down because your in fresh air and have the most powerful lumen source aka the sun beasting them up from every angle. Im talking about defoliating indoors under horizontals for yield. Air flow is totally key, I never said it wasnt. And defoliating increases airflow. He also doesnt just de larf bottoms he said he defoliates everything but leaves attached to the buds and it effects the hormone/nutrient displacement in your plant sending more to your fruits and less to lower storage leaves to be stored for later. There are a ton of postives to defoliating fans and lower node regions, not just air flow.

HookedonPonics · Apr 24, 2014

And your picture analysis doesnt prove defoliating doesnt cause bigger yields. Your saying airflow and inadequate root space caused those trees to stall. What does that have to do with defoliating for yield of a fruiting plant?

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

Not growing for larf either, the transpire rate on the leaves changes with temps, airflow, co2, ....

I'm getting great lumens indeed but the net is littered with poorly grown outdoor that had the same sun.

I like the lowest stress possible, it my opinion from past grows that the fan leaves for the most part untouched for me produce better buds .... I believe in cleaning up a bit but for the most part i just let it grow.

And you can attain proper grow areas ( even 5 x 5 ) that can attain perfect environment. Proper par coverage for the room in balance with heat & distance from plant for A+

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

HookedonPonics said:
And your picture analysis doesnt prove defoliating doesnt cause bigger yields. Your saying airflow and inadequate root space caused those trees to stall. What does that have to do with defoliating for yield of a fruiting plant?

Those trees could not grow like they wanted from seed like the monsters in the back yard that are shining from the top down ....... All bunched up, no air flow nothing but death ....

What about your " lumen " source ???? It should be pounding the inside of those trees but yet no growth , so i could climb up and trim that shit ! But its still a sign the plant / tree is unhealthy .... the root system in the ground wants a full tree. The beds in hydro are sending up tall trees / with proper spacing like jack yes yield will be upped over a root system in a 5 gallon bucket.

SpiderK · Apr 24, 2014

& your not wrong ... I understand all your points, I just look at it differently ... I'd rather figure out the proper balance for room size / heat & height of lamps ....

HookedonPonics · Apr 24, 2014

I was just typing that I think were on the same page, were just misunderstanding eachothers bottom line lol. Its very dependent on setup like I said, no defoliating method is the same. For instance lets say im running a 24 light show and need to keep it under 99 plants. So I run 4 plants per light (mini trees) I know this strain stretches 2 or so feet in flower so I delarf all the stuff beforehand that in the coming weeks will be to far from the light to produce. The stuff im chopping is healthy I just know that in the future it wont get enough light to produce. The defoliaton for this garden will be far more than someone using jacks bed method or outdoors where the sun penetrates the outer canopy a ton better than HID. Heres a pic after stretch of a 4 plant per light garden ive been running, delarfed and defoliated. pulls 2 ps a light, no larf, all top colas.

HookedonPonics · Apr 24, 2014

SpiderK said:
& your not wrong ... I understand all your points, I just look at it differently ... I'd rather figure out the proper balance for room size / heat & height of lamps ....

@SpiderK, thanks for the debate too bro. I know your not a rookie too, ive read some informative stuff from you in other threads. I just like to debate issues with others doin it right. Thats the stuff that gets two peoples knowledge together for others to read and learn. Always more than one way to skin a cat, good vibes and good herbs!

ssteely71 · May 3, 2014

I have been playing around with defoliation for some time. I have not been able to do side by sides with clones or anything but I have used it as a training tool for some time. I have used top-down defoliation to slow vertical growth on main cola while lower branches are trimmed of all but the top 4 fans on a branch. This causes some branchy strains to end up as an multi topped with an even canopy at flower producing multi mains, instead of Christmas tree shaped. It does not work well with purer indicas imo. Also I never defoliate a plant in flower unless I have defoilated it in veg, training it per say to accept the loss. I have also had defoliation backfire to some extent while growing an Apollo dom strain, it branched and stretched into a pure mess after cleaning out fans. Would of been ok outside but it made a mess of my tent but it yielded big too. Lol.

Here is a plant I'm using defoliation on to train into multi top with out actually having to top it.

This is directly after it's second defoliation. Plant is 36 days from seed.

Dunge · May 3, 2014

I start pruning as soon as I have a well established cutting.
If a branch is not going to develop into a top it is removed unless it is spared as a future cutting prospect.
I try to keep removing lower growth while small, allowing the plant to allocate that primary productivity to more desirable structures.
By the time the plant is ready to flower I will often dig into the centers between verticals and remove some fans to open up air flow.
This works for my small corner.

Greenthumb4 · May 4, 2014

Ive been trying new ways every time to find whay best fo me this time I might have left a little to much undergrowth this time but shes doing great this pic is four weeks in flower

remove all leaves?

remove all leaves?

SpiderK

HookedonPonics

Tnelz

SpiderK

SpiderK

Greenthumb4

SpiderK

HookedonPonics

Greenthumb4

SpiderK

HookedonPonics

HookedonPonics

SpiderK

SpiderK

SpiderK

HookedonPonics

HookedonPonics

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Dunge

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