S1 - Discussion

[soserthc1]

Well there is a question I posted in another thread so figured I would start a thread in order to not derail the ogk thread but to get some opinion's on s1 sex and the possibility that you could get a s1 male as it seems to be a topic that has several different answers or opinion's ..

I popped 7 s1 's that I collected over numerous run's - but the one in question was a fem super lemon haze and was my second or third grow ever - the plant produced 1 seed and i popped it with 6 other all single seeds of different genetic's

The super lemon haze turned out to be straight up male and 75% of people that have spoke on the subject say its not possible , that it must of been pollinated with something and that could be possible with my Snow Leopard or my ARC as there was a ghost train haze that went male in that run but in the super lemon haze run it was lemon skunk fem - tangerine dream fem - slh -fem -So 5 years later i pop it and its a true male - thoughts ?

Some of my thoughts Chem had 1 male which he culled so if this is true and s1's can only be female - wouldn't that make chem's a cross or random pollination ? Has chemsfather aka Joe brand (wonkanobe) ever stated where he bought /acquired the tree sold to chem ?

If a plant can force male organ's in order to try to reproduce , why can't a female plant not produce male seeds . I culled the plant but kept a clone so i'll sex it out and start to flower it again in the future but curious of the thoughts on those that have better explanation or just there opinion

 

[PaperStreet]

I will be watching for your grow on this male.
Mine was a male that switched sex gender to female but the pollen it did drop before switching sex turned out all regular male and female offspring. 300 that i have personally grown out from the reversal with zero hermi trait and another 70-100 beans ive traded and gifted all reported back as both regular male and female ratios with zero hermi activity so i have seen more crazy and wierd or unexplainable things happen with my own eyes in my own grows. I cannot explain it scientificly but i can tell u it does happen very rarely but still does happen on occasion hope to learn some things here myself.
Everytime i see this subject brought up on other forums its immediately bombarded with haters trying to discredit the fact it cannot happen in thoery but all have zero actual scientific proof that it also cannot happen so u have an S1 male id like to see what happens.
Id like to see some actual class here u know like and educational debate of facts type of situation so far thcfarm has been classy on that level glad u started this thread soser.
Im thinking about popping some more f1 reversal beans just for shits n giggles.
Peace hope to see some knowledge up in here.

 

[manicgrower]

Im glad you started this thread as Im very interested in the subject. Id like to say that Im by no means an expert and what I say are my opinions based on the research Ive done. Ive been wrong before and Ill be wrong again Im sure:p. With that said, we all know the saying "Nothing is Impossible", although some things are VERY improbable.

Chem got his seeds from a bag of herb who's lineage is unknown. Its also unknown whether the grower of said herb had any males in or around his grow at the time. So finding info that route is basically a dead end.

From the research Ive done, plants(specifically Cannabis plants) grow sex organs of the opposite sex in order to further their chances of reproduction in the wild. If a female plant grows in the wild and there is no males around to pollinate it, it can produce male pollen sacks in order to self pollinate it self. Creating seeds which are all female. This gives the female a chance next season to try again to be pollinated by a male in order to further its progeny. A sort of back up plan for the female. This is the reason(Im guessing) that if you let a female continue to grow, without harvesting, far past its usual harvest window, it will create male flowers. Now this isnt the case for all Cannabis plants or strains as it only happens occasionally.

 

[cannabeans]

Here is something I found a while back.....
http://www.1stmarijuanagrowerspage.com/how-to-improve-female-male-ratio-of-cannabis-plant.html

 

[midwestdensies]

I thought the bag seed was from dnl

 

[manicgrower]

Here is something I found a while back.....
http://www.1stmarijuanagrowerspage.com/how-to-improve-female-male-ratio-of-cannabis-plant.html

That was an interesting read. The author claims that 100% true males can come from a selfed female. Although he doesnt really explain how or give reasoning behind it. The article also states that unlike most plants and animals, the sex of a cannabis plant isnt determined at conception, but rather at 3-4 weeks into its vegetative stage. I'm guessing the only way this would be possible, is that both male and female sets of chromosomes are passed to the seed. So when a male Cannabis plant pollinates a female, it passes on not just the male set of chromosomes but also the female set. Both sets!

Now if this is true, it seems that both chromosome sets could still be locked in the genetic makeup of a true female. In turn making it possible to have a true male seed come from a selfed female. If all that is true, we could definitely be on to something here. Although more concrete data would have to be examined in order to know for sure. Such as a breakdown of the genetic code of a Cannabis plant.

ECSD is believed to have come from a cross to DNL. ('91 Chemdog x Mass Super Skunk/NL)x DNL. Not Chemdog itself.

 

[PaperStreet]

Nice breakdown manic kinda made it easier for me to understand.
Great read on the article.



I havent quite figured out how to copy and paste on this new phone but theres is an excerpt in this chapter the author tries to explain sexual reversals (complete) sexual reversals hopefully this link works.
I have seen more i believe from Djshort was actually attempting to breed with such plants the info is out there unfortunetly alot of the info is stuck in those higher up paid botany sites/ forums where they discuss the scientific side of things.
I try and find some stuff altho again i think that original thread was wiped out due to haters!

Ok found it check out excerpt 4.9-


http://www.rexresearch.com/hhusb/hh4bot.htm#HH49

Peace.

 

[BrianDirt]

Here is a quote from a farmer that posted this comment in the breeding for beginers section.

"In 1927 K. Hirata at the Hokkaido Imperial University published work where he induced hermaphrodite formation in Cannabis sativa by mutilation, isolated each plant so it only fertilised itself, allowed the buds to mature, collected the seeds and replanted them. 294 seeds were collected, 143 germinated of which 78 were female, 45 were intersex (AKA hermaphrodite) and 3 were male, the rest never reached sexual maturity. (Hirata, K. Journal of genetics (1927), 19(1): 65) "

"
What is selfing?
As the title implies, the main drawback to selfing cannabis plants is that you loose the male portion of your population, making future crosses difficult. Some think that by selfing a plant, all the offspring will turn out just like mom. That is only true if mom is true breeding for all the traits you are interested in. Otherwise, her offspring will show two phenotypes for every trait that she is not true breeding.

There are two basic models for selfing a plant such as cannabis the first one being where the plant is homozygous for the trait in question. Let's assume again that pineapple flavour is controlled by the recessive gene pp. If we self the plant we fill get the following S1 cross.

S1 cross = pp x pp = pp + pp + pp + pp or 100% pineapple flavoured female offspring. But no matching males

The other likely possibility is that special individual heterozygous dominant for the pineapple flavour. In this case P will indicate for pineapple flavour and the S1 cross will be:

S1 cross = Pp x Pp = PP + Pp + Pp + pp, our familiar 1:2:1 mendelian ratio.

In this second example only 75% of the offspring will have pineapple flavour and the frequency of the P gene will only be 50%, a far cry from 100% or true breeding. From here on, this isn't much different from a half sib cross involving regular inbreeding or backcrossing. It will take a few generations to achieve something close to true breeding, but as with backcrossing, as long as we use the P1 mom in the crosses (selfing in this case), we will never achieve a true breeding population."

 

[soserthc1]

I will be watching for your grow on this male.
Mine was a male that switched sex gender to female but the pollen it did drop before switching sex turned out all regular male and female offspring. 300 that i have personally grown out from the reversal with zero hermi trait and another 70-100 beans ive traded and gifted all reported back as both regular male and female ratios with zero hermi activity so i have seen more crazy and wierd or unexplainable things happen with my own eyes in my own grows. I cannot explain it scientificly but i can tell u it does happen very rarely but still does happen on occasion hope to learn some things here myself.
Everytime i see this subject brought up on other forums its immediately bombarded with haters trying to discredit the fact it cannot happen in thoery but all have zero actual scientific proof that it also cannot happen so u have an S1 male id like to see what happens.
Id like to see some actual class here u know like and educational debate of facts type of situation so far thcfarm has been classy on that level glad u started this thread soser.
Im thinking about popping some more f1 reversal beans just for shits n giggles.
Peace hope to see some knowledge up in here.

First all thread are going to have different opinion's and different personalities expressing that opinion - so just roll with it , listen to the answers that are scientific and also the one's from experiences and form your own opinion - hopefully we get alot of good imput or a breeder or two drop in with there experience as I believe JJ has written about this rare occurrence and that its a good thing and a special plant to have ....

Your plant switched sex from female to male and switched when ? in flower or veg - i would assume flower as that prob is the only way you could really tell it was 100% female as I have a orange og - that had a ball clearly visible in veg so i added it to flower to ball it up some and collect the pollen and it now appears to be opening flowers without any balls - thou i just noticed this this morning and have yet to take out the loupe to inspect it - so i'll know better later

If you were certain it switch sex and grew almost 400 between self and friends i believe you have some proof right there .....

Here is a quote from a farmer that posted this comment in the breeding for beginers section.

"In 1927 K. Hirata at the Hokkaido Imperial University published work where he induced hermaphrodite formation in Cannabis sativa by mutilation, isolated each plant so it only fertilised itself, allowed the buds to mature, collected the seeds and replanted them. 294 seeds were collected, 143 germinated of which 78 were female, 45 were intersex (AKA hermaphrodite) and 3 were male, the rest never reached sexual maturity. (Hirata, K. Journal of genetics (1927), 19(1): 65) "

"
What is selfing?
As the title implies, the main drawback to selfing cannabis plants is that you loose the male portion of your population, making future crosses difficult. Some think that by selfing a plant, all the offspring will turn out just like mom. That is only true if mom is true breeding for all the traits you are interested in. Otherwise, her offspring will show two phenotypes for every trait that she is not true breeding.

There are two basic models for selfing a plant such as cannabis the first one being where the plant is homozygous for the trait in question. Let's assume again that pineapple flavour is controlled by the recessive gene pp. If we self the plant we fill get the following S1 cross.

S1 cross = pp x pp = pp + pp + pp + pp or 100% pineapple flavoured female offspring. But no matching males

The other likely possibility is that special individual heterozygous dominant for the pineapple flavour. In this case P will indicate for pineapple flavour and the S1 cross will be:

S1 cross = Pp x Pp = PP + Pp + Pp + pp, our familiar 1:2:1 mendelian ratio.

In this second example only 75% of the offspring will have pineapple flavour and the frequency of the P gene will only be 50%, a far cry from 100% or true breeding. From here on, this isn't much different from a half sib cross involving regular inbreeding or backcrossing. It will take a few generations to achieve something close to true breeding, but as with backcrossing, as long as we use the P1 mom in the crosses (selfing in this case), we will never achieve a true breeding population."

interest info but this would only apply to selfing the plant with a unnatural formula kinda looking for just a weird occurrence and whether its actually possible to switch sex on its own - solid info thou - who did you quote if you don't mind sharing - appreciative the imput guys

 

[soserthc1]

Im glad you started this thread as Im very interested in the subject. Id like to say that Im by no means an expert and what I say are my opinions based on the research Ive done. Ive been wrong before and Ill be wrong again Im sure:p. With that said, we all know the saying "Nothing is Impossible", although some things are VERY improbable.

Chem got his seeds from a bag of herb who's lineage is unknown. Its also unknown whether the grower of said herb had any males in or around his grow at the time. So finding info that route is basically a dead end.

From the research Ive done, plants(specifically Cannabis plants) grow sex organs of the opposite sex in order to further their chances of reproduction in the wild. If a female plant grows in the wild and there is no males around to pollinate it, it can produce male pollen sacks in order to self pollinate it self. Creating seeds which are all female. This gives the female a chance next season to try again to be pollinated by a male in order to further its progeny. A sort of back up plan for the female. This is the reason(Im guessing) that if you let a female continue to grow, without harvesting, far past its usual harvest window, it will create male flowers. Now this isnt the case for all Cannabis plants or strains as it only happens occasionally.

This is commonly known and kinda the basis for my thread if a female plant can produce male parts in order to pollinate its self -which we all know to be true then why are the seeds only female as the female made male parts on itself to reproduce so that would leave me to believe that it is possible for a few seeds to carry the male trait after all the female made male parts so why not the male seed as it was pollinated just by itself .... thanks for the imput much appreciated

 

[soserthc1]

Here is something I found a while back.....
http://www.1stmarijuanagrowerspage.com/how-to-improve-female-male-ratio-of-cannabis-plant.html

Excellent info - gotta get a moment to read it all but that is the kind of info i was hoping this thread would create - thank you for your contribution will read a little later on to early and high for comprehension on all that ;) love my morning high .....

I thought the bag seed was from dnl

MWD - whats good my friend hope all is well with the new digs are you referring to the chem bags as i always wondered where they came from and never seen it posted - and the buyer is still active in the community some what - so this -if what your speaking about is chem's seeds had to be a cross i always guessed it was tree from a farmer that had been growing it for numerous yrs and it was randomly pollinated by mistake - hence the one male culled .....



@manicgrower - congrads on the moderated status just noticed best of luck and thanks for help our community out ....

 

[nightmarecreature]

Damn dude that works sited was from 1927.

I don't believe a true S1' can be a male at all. It's missing the entire male chromosome. An S1's can be female or hermi. Any male seeds you get from an S1 are really females that have only male parts, they do not have the actual male chromosome. They are hermie's but since they don't have male and female parts, people think that they are not hermie and believe them to be male. They might even produce off spring that appear completely male but they are still just a hermie. The only way you would be able to tell if you had a 100% true male is if genetic testing was done. I believe this is partially what is happening today and why there are so many hermies going around. Breeders using intersex males unknowingly. The other reason is that cannabis is known to naturally hermie in nature to ensure it's survival if there are no males around.

I don't know if this is true or not but I have heard from a lot of old growers that the strains they had many years ago that did not hermie, were pretty much bullet proof. I'm not talking about all the seeded bud that used to go around, I mean the old school seedless bud. They never hermied under any condition and they never threw nanners of any kind even in late flower. Most of these guys that said that were growing in the 1980's. I didn't grow then so I can't state for a fact.

 

[nightmarecreature]

I also believe it's good to somewhat stress your seeds. I'd rather have two solid females out of a 10 pack that can handle stress, than eight females out of a 10 pack who will turn on me and grow balls under little stress.

Good growers always stress test a keeper clone to see if it can handle stress without turning. Even the legendary Chemdog D cut throws a few nanners late in flower but it's not a big deal because most of the nanner pollen is sterile.

 

[soserthc1]

Damn dude that works sited was from 1927.

I don't believe a true S1' can be a male at all. It's missing the entire male chromosome. An S1's can be female or hermi. Any male seeds you get from an S1 are really females that have only male parts, they do not have the actual male chromosome. They are hermie's but since they don't have male and female parts, people think that they are not hermie and believe them to be male. They might even produce off spring that appear completely male but they are still just a hermie. The only way you would be able to tell if you had a 100% true male is if genetic testing was done. I believe this is partially what is happening today and why there are so many hermies going around. Breeders using intersex males unknowingly. The other reason is that cannabis is known to naturally hermie in nature to ensure it's survival if there are no males around.

I don't know if this is true or not but I have heard from a lot of old growers that the strains they had many years ago that did not hermie, were pretty much bullet proof. I'm not talking about all the seeded bud that used to go around, I mean the old school seedless bud. They never hermied under any condition and they never threw nanners of any kind even in late flower. Most of these guys that said that were growing in the 1980's. I didn't grow then so I can't state for a fact.

I would think that is because back then old growers were growing stable landrace or a simple cross of two proven genetic plant's and there was not all this poly hybrid stuff that is all over now ..... thanks for chiming in NMC


Respect
SoSerTHC1

 

[nightmarecreature]

I think seed sex is predetermined. There's a big debate on this.

 

[soserthc1]

going on stress, packing a hundred of the same sexed even same species plant in together at 90 degrees in spots with shitty ventilation and too much light... then factor in looking to breed.
when will the circle stop? has anyone consistently cropped MALES in a full tent SOG stressed out to see what happens? or will this be straight opinionated copy and pastes here? we crop females. we have done 99.9999% more female cropping than males. everyone looking for females. i laugh at all the shit that says "get you more males".... OH RLY?!? funny when i try to get males and do that shit i get all Female... its nature.
i'll just quote jeff goldblooms character in jurassic park, cause its as fuckin simple as that, no further needed really. "life finds a way."

thanks for popping in Orgn and i don't pretend to even know any where as much about this as you so i'm curious have you ever seen a s1' seed be male or are they all female or herm .... appreciate your imput

 

[soserthc1]

I think seed sex is predetermined. There's a big debate on this.

So all that 24 hr light creates more male etc .... is pretty much bs is what you and Ok are saying - a seed is a predetermined sex and that is what it will be providing you dont stress it to herm ?

 

[nightmarecreature]

I only use 24hr of light and i get slightly more females. I think seed sex is predetermined. I think the genetics are also determined in whether it has hermie traits or not but I also believe environmental factors can bring those out.

 

[MtGrownCanna]

In NJ back in the 90s, it was harder to get elite clones. All my grows were from random s1 bag seed I purchased. Most of what I purchased was killer hydro from NYC...mostly done from clones.. Never did I have a male from an s1. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I grew hundreds of plants and they all turned out female.......not to mention, most of the plants would drop one or two more seeds after growing them out.

Nightmare- If you only use 24 hours of light, how do you know you get more females using 24 hours light, compared to 18 hours? I grow all my seeds under 24 hours and for me, it depends on what cross I'm growing. I've read a few times the more stable a genome is, the less of a need there is to produce male offspring. IME, I have found that the f1 generation is around 70/30 fem, while my f2s and f3s from the same line can be closer to 40/60 fem. I've seen this pattern over the last several years.

 

[soserthc1]

In NJ back in the 90s, it was harder to get elite clones. All my grows were from random s1 bag seed I purchased. Most of what I purchased was killer hydro from NYC...mostly done from clones.. Never did I have a male from an s1. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I grew hundreds of plants and they all turned out female.......not to mention, most of the plants would drop one or two more seeds after growing them out.

Nightmare- If you only use 24 hours of light, how do you know you get more females using 24 hours light, compared to 18 hours? I grow all my seeds under 24 hours and for me, it depends on what cross I'm growing. I've read a few times the more stable a genome is, the less of a need there is to produce male offspring. IME, I have found that the f1 generation is around 70/30 fem, while my f2s and f3s from the same line can be closer to 40/60 fem. I've seen this pattern over the last several years.

interesting info if that is the case then would say Jaws banana kush f9 (could have strain confused) would be 10/90 fem ? - so another question pops up does the farther down you work the line create more males ? - my guess would be no but can't speak on it as i never have popped 100 seeds at once but i want to...


my first ever grow was bag seed also gdp 5 seeds 5 females so i'm not doubting s1 are female just is this true in 100% or is there rare occasions of a male ....