***Saturation Levels Of Dissolved Oxygen In Relation To Water Temperature***

I have noticed that the question of whether a chiller is necessary or not when growing in the Under Current has been debated some and I wanted to share some information that might help clear things up for some people. The purpose of chilling the water in an Under Current system or any system for that matter is not only to keep the root zone healthy and free from disease, it is also done so to help increase the saturation level of dissolved oxygen that is in your nutrient solution. The whole point of the Under Current and DWC is to have large amounts of dissolved oxygen in the nutrient solution. This is what causes the plants to be able to assimilate nutrients faster and have such rapid cell growth. bd

Here is a list of water temperatures and the amounts of dissolved oxygen that water contains in relation to these temperatures:

Degrees in Fahrenheit / Dissolved oxygen in ppm

32.0 / 14.6
34.8 / 13.8
39.2 / 13.1
42.8 / 12.5
46.4 / 11.9
50.0 / 11.3
53.6 / 10.8
57.2 / 10.3
60.8 / 9.9
64.4 / 9.5
68.0 / 9.1
71.6 / 8.7
75.2 / 8.4
78.8 / 8.1
83.4 / 7.8
86.0 / 7.5
89.6 / 7.3
93.2 / 7.1
96.8 / 6.8
100.4 / 6.6​
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Should we presume that these values are for pure (or relatively pure) water, though? Saturation levels of other compounds affects DO2 levels in my experience (aquatics, not hydroponics). For instance, you'll never achieve the same DO levels in saltwater, even chilled down to 32F, that you do in freshwater.

Has anyone created a data set for DO levels in a hydro set-up?
 
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DO,DO,DO and the DA,DA,DA is all I have to say to you

That scale Ben posted is most likely based on low (50ppm or less, possibly even RO) water......high amounts of dissolved solids most definitely reduce waters ability to hold oxygen in suspension.

This is one of the main advantages to running lower nute concentrations.....keep your DO high as possible and your PPM's only as high as necessary to meet your plants nutritional needs.

Thanks for sharing that D.O. scale Ben.
 
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Recirculation Basics – Part 3
By Urban Garden Magazine ⋅ April 24, 2010 ⋅ Email This Post ⋅ Print This Post ⋅ Post a comment
Filed Under air circulation, air-flow, airflow, CO2, humidity, Issue 10, Michael Christian, oxygen, temperature, ventilation
What all Hydroponic Growers Need To Know About Nutrient Recirculation

As we’ve learned in part 1 and part 2, in order to grow successfully in a hydroponic system, there are certain basics that always need to be kept in check: otherwise, plant performance inevitably suffers. After covering source water, nutrient and pH, world-renowned hydroponics expert Michael Christan breaks down the final ingredients of a healthy indoor growing environment: oxygen, light, temperature, humidity, air circulation and CO2.

Photos courtesy of AmHydro.

The 5 basics of recirculation and plant performance:

1. Pure source water
2. Balanced nutrient ions/anions (EC)
3. Optimum pH
4. Plentiful oxygen availability
5. Optimum light/temp/humidity/air circulation/CO2

The Importance of Oxygen
It’s obvious that loose, friable soil with organic matter and thriving microbes grows plants much better than tight, clay soil devoid of organic matter. The primary missing ingredient in the latter is air (oxygen) availability.

The air we breathe is composed of gasses: 78% nitrogen (N2), 21% oxygen (02), 0.9% argon (Ar) and 0.03% carbon dioxide (CO2). The one we’re focusing on in this article is oxygen. The action of microbes on organic matter in a loose soil produces air pockets as organic matter is mineralized. These oxygen pockets are crucial to the survival and rapid colonization of healthy microbial populations. When the organic matter in the soil is fully consumed by the microbes and plants have consumed all the minerals, oxygen becomes depleted and, if more organic matter is not reapplied, plant performance slows and pathogenic (anaerobic) microbes can colonize. This condition is best avoided.

In media-based recirculating systems, the O2 is in the media: e.g. rockwool, perlite, grow rocks. Plentiful air space is available even after water is drained from the media. Roots thrive in O2-rich pockets. They are able to produce prolific root systems and plentiful root hairs to increase surface area to better absorb available ions. This is the best reason for using media with porosity. Of course, flood and drain systems suck fresh air into the media when it drains, which is why it’s such a great irrigation system.

In water-based recirculating systems, NFT, DFT and Aeroponics, O2 availability is intrinsic to the design of the system. NFT is a flat-bottomed tube with a shallow nutrient stream moving slowly, keeping root hairs moist and absorbing O2 (see “NFT Gro-Tanks,” UGM009). Aeroponics is misting droplets of water, increasing the surface area many-fold for roots to grow prolific root hairs for ion absorption. It supersaturates the solution with O2. DFT uses air pumps and water temp to keep roots bubbled with 02 and oxygen rich.

The heart of a media-based or water-based recirculating system is the nutrient reservoir. This too requires oxygenation, especially when water temperatures rise. The use of air pumps and air stones on smaller reservoirs and pump-powered eductors (venturis) on larger reservoirs make a big difference in pathogen suppression (nasty fungi and bacteria don’t like O2). This agitation drives ethylene gas from the solution and increases the longevity of the nutrient. Be sure that, if there are reservoir lids, there’s room for air exchange with ambient air in the room or greenhouse. Many commercial growers use fresh outside air in their eductors to keep the nutrient solution optimum.

Dissolved Oxygen (DO) can be measured to determine solubility of oxygen in fresh water. Fresh water at 72°F (22°C) has a DO of 8.7 ppm; at 82°F (28°C) it drops to 8.1 ppm. Salt solutions are lower. As a rule of thumb, every increase of 1ppm in DO is equivalent to an 11°F (12°C) temp drop. The cooler the temp, the higher the DO. You don’t want cold water on plant roots, though. You want 72°F (22°C) water at your roots for most plants.

When we measured DO in our greenhouse reservoirs, we found that a 74°F (23°C) nutrient tank at an EC of 2 had a DO of 6.3 ppm (low because of salts and sitting still). When we turned on an eductor (venturi), which we do in ALL reservoirs, we received a reading of 7.6 ppm. BIG difference. That’s an increase of 1.3 ppm without changing temperature.

Then we add an in-line Mazzei injector in between the tank and the feeder pipe, which raises DO to 8.3 ppm. By the time the water had run down the NFT channel and 18 plants had their way with the O2, with some off-gassing occurring, there was an 8.1 ppm DO left in the nutrient solution going back to the reservoir. That’s what we’re after! Plants thrive at those DO levels. Makes ALL the difference.

Be careful: as water temperatures of salt solutions increase, you must mitigate by adding O2 in the reservoir as well as directly on the roots. If you can’t get the DO level up by mechanical means, then you will most likely require a water chiller, which is expensive but sometimes imperative. If you cannot bring water temps down or increase DO in the nutrient solution, your next action will be disease suppression or inoculating roots with beneficials to out-compete the pathogens that thrive in high temp, low DO water. If you do get a DO meter, get a good one. We use an Extech Model 407510.

Light
Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) light is a fancy term for the wavelengths plants use to vibrate chloroplasts to power the engine of photosynthesis, a vaguely understood process in my opinion. It is said that PAR light is in the 400 to 700 nanometer wavelength range. No big deal if you’re outside or in a well-lit greenhouse. But if you are growing under HID light or using it as a supplement, it certainly is.

Color temperatures of lamps are measured in degrees Kelvin from a color rendering index (CRI). The blue/white side of the spectrum has higher Kelvin temp: 6000K-8000K (MH lamps). The yellow/red side of the spectrum has lower Kelvin temperature: 3000K (HPS lamps). As a rule, the higher the Kelvin temp, the more vegetative the growth. The lower Kelvin temps are used for supplemental and/or flowering light. Different bulbs have different combinations or blends of gasses for better PAR value. Plants can be finicky and prefer one blend of light more than another. Trial and error, sometimes, is the only way to find out what your plants really like.

High Intensity Discharge (HID) lamps produce light when the gases inside the fused alumina tube are heated to the point of evaporation by high voltage electricity. This process forces the metal gasses to throw off a barrage of photons partly in the PAR range. As the bulb burns over time, the metal gasses slowly change form and degrade out of the PAR range. It is not obvious, but plant performance can suffer from lack of the PAR light when there is no shortage of photons to the naked eye. To look at light as a possible limiting factor, keep track of the hours your bulbs have been burning. If you are over the recommended burn range as stated by the manufacturer, that could be what’s compromising your system. Rule of thumb with HPS bulbs is to replace them every 12 months, and MH bulbs every 9 months, with HPS burning 12 hour days, MH burning 18 hour days.

Outside it’s obvious what limits light, like trees. But in greenhouses, if the glazing is dirty, that’s a big deal and that situation just creeps up on you. Depending on what you’re growing and what time of year it is, a dirty film can cut out as much as 30% of available light. If you are using an 85% transmission film and have 30% attributed to dirt, that’s 55%, basically shade cloth. In situations where there is too much light and plants are unable to cope with the leaf temperatures or solar radiation, a white or metallic shade cloth is preferable to black, as black can radiate heat back down on the plant canopy. A simple mistake easily avoided by many growers in double poly greenhouses is that the inflation fan is pulling inside air in between the films, thereby creating moisture that blocks light. You can tell by the droplets in between the films, or a haze. It is always recommended to use outside air for inflation. Of course, all of this is dependent on location, latitude, geography, plant in cultivation and skill/experience of the grower. We cannot cover all those variables in a brief article.

Temperature
Plant response to temperature is pretty obvious. It’s visible. Plants stop growing when root temps hit 58°F (14°C). Air temp can actually be cooler than 58°F, but when roots are cool, growth slows and stops even when air temp increases. When temps are too high, say 95°F (35°C) plus, depending on RH, air flow, light, kind, size, and age of a plant, they may stop feeding and spend their energy evaporating water from their stomata to cool down. Temperature must be managed to keep plants transpiring and active in the sweet spot.

Most temp controllers are effective, turning on fans for increased air exchanges, but when temps are too hot outside, air conditioners must be used. As a variable, though, temperature control is straightforward. It’s common knowledge that insects like very consistent temperatures and no air movement. Find which temperatures are your best high and low, and vary them morning, daytime and night. Keep an inhospitable environment for the pests without sacrificing plant performance: another dance to master.

Humidity
The two ways of explaining humidity are relative humidity (RH) and vapor pressure deficit (VPD). Most people are familiar with RH and use hygrometers so, for the purposes of this article, I will use RH.

In my experience, this is the one variable that most growers need to be more aware of. The dance between temp/humidity directly affects transpiration rates as poor transpiration opens the plant organism to disease and mineral deficiencies.

RH is the amount of water vapor present in the air expressed as a % of the amount needed for saturation at the same temperature. Here’s what that means: if the humidity is too high, e.g. 95% at 75°F, plants cannot transpire or evaporate enough water to pull minerals up the vascular system even with stomata wide open. This usually results in calcium (Ca) deficiency (remember, Ca is a non-mobile element and must be constantly supplied to growing tips) and plant stress, which increases their vulnerability to fungal intrusion.

If humidity is too low, 50% at 75°F, stomata will open in an attempt to evaporate water because of the low pressure around the leaf, but then close up to conserve cell pressure in the leaf. Plants stress as they cannot take in CO2 with closed stomata and growth stops as the plant is just trying to survive without going into wilt (i.e. loss of leaf turgidity from which it’s difficult to recover). Again the plant is vulnerable to disease and insects. These two extremes points will create a high probability of crop loss.

As a rule, at 75°F (24°C), if RH is below 60% you must add moisture to get to 75% (which is ideal), but stay below 85% to avoid stress and disease. At 85°F (29°C), if RH is below 70% you must add moisture to get to 80% (which is ideal), but stay below 90% to avoid stress and disease. As temperature rises, air holds less moisture. Steer your plants within these parameters for optimum plant performance.

When RH is too low, use a fogger or humidifier coupled with outside air exchanges. When outside air is too warm and dry, you will have to use some form of air conditioner (if that is the only way) to drop the temperature to increase the moisture-holding capacity of the air.

When RH is too high, raise temperature to reduce moisture saturation of air coupled with outside air exchanges. If outside air has too high of an RH, you will need a dehumidifier to pull water out of the air.

Transpiration is king. Monitoring transpiration rates and keeping them optimum with temp/RH manipulation is crucial. If you are outside of the temp/RH safe zones and don’t use some mechanical method of bringing them under control, you will always be fighting the results of that variable being unchecked. This is where high quality environmental controllers come in handy

You can buy the most expensive nutrients, goodies and gadgets available to grow your crop, but if your plants are unable to transpire and you don’t know that, you had best learn quickly or get a day job

Air Circulation and CO2
No matter what kind of controlled environment you’re running, greenhouse or greenroom, air circulation is another key component that is often overlooked until mildew takes out your crop or your plants starve from lack of CO2. The great outdoors takes care of all this, but inside you have to provide the controls or fall prey to what you didn’t know you didn’t know.

Rule of thumb: 60 air exchanges per hour. Not only do you need to flutter your plants with gentle breezes from an oscillating fan or horizontal air flow (HAF) fans in a greenhouse, but you must freshen the air with air exchanges from outside, taking advantage of the 385 ppm ambient CO2. The raw materials that PAR light makes into carbohydrates are CO2 and H2O. CO2 furnishes the carbon and oxygen, while water furnishes the hydrogen for the carbohydrate (CH2O).

If air exchanges are frequent, 385 ppm CO2 is plenty unless you’re looking to accelerate growth by enriching your space with higher levels to, say, 1500 ppm CO2. Even if you are adding CO2, you still must exchange air. There are numerous ways to provide CO2: chemical reactions, gas bottles, gas generators and a variety of controllers and monitors depending on the size of the operation. For the purpose of this article, you just need to know that it is a basic component of the indoor growing environment, and be mindful that it’s always available. Without CO2, plants will not grow.

One of my teachers, Grenville Stocker in NZ, took me into one of his client’s lettuce/herb greenhouses and asked me, “Would you get a chair, sit down, read a book or hang out in here all day?” Actually, it was way too moist, not enough air movement, my shirt was sticky, and it was uncomfortably warm. I said, “No way.” He remarked, “How do you think those plants feel? The same way, I reckon, except they can’t leave.” Then he showed me powdery mildew in certain areas, a thrip infestation and tip burn in some of the lettuces. The plants did not look vital, they looked stressed. I noticed the HAF fans were down, because of a blown breaker that the grower had been meaning to fix for a week. He had an RH monitor but no controller to check humidity and spill air or add heat … AND he was doing only 1 air exchange per hour because it was cold outside. He wanted to keep temps up inside without turning on the heat, which would cost him money. I looked at the RH: it was 95%. Temp was 80°F but it felt like 90°F because of the humidity. His client was too busy to pay attention or take coaching, and he wasn’t even there. Grenville always tested me; he’d say, “What’s wrong with this picture?” Then he would point out a basic that was obvious once I saw it. Most problems were easy to correct once distinguished.

I found out later the grower lost 50% of his crop and the other 50% was barely marketable. Had he kept HAF fans working, increased his air exchanges and turned up the heat to drive off the humidity with the help of a controller, he would not have had crop and financial loss. Just that one error cost him a market: he couldn’t deliver, so a competitor moved in. The point I’m making is: don’t leave your plants in an environment you can’t handle being in yourself. Use meters and controllers, but always keep them honest by paying attention to what your skin says.

All the variables of light, temperature, humidity, air circulation and CO2 must dance together in a harmony that you must monitor and control to be successful and avoid crop loss. If you cannot distinguish which variable is out, you will be guessing what the problem is and perhaps taking actions that are detrimental. Next time a problem arises (which inevitably will happen) and you’re scratching your head as to what to do, go through this list and check off each one that you KNOW is in tolerance. These 5 basics could be what you didn’t know you didn’t know. Now that you do, dissect them and become competent with each one:

The 5 basics of recirculation and plant performance:
1. Pure source water
2. Balanced nutrient ions/anions (EC)
3. Optimum pH
4. Plentiful oxygen availability
5. Optimum light/temp/humidity/air circulation/CO2

For the content and experiences that allowed me to write these articles, I’d like to thank my teachers, Grenville Stocker (Stocker Hort), Jeff Broad (AutoGrow), Genaro Calabrese (ex partner), Grant Creevey (Accent Hydro) and all our clients and associates for sharing and being open to “figuring it out.” Controlled environment plant cultivation is infinitely beguiling; I am always learning a greater respect for being part of that process. Genaro’s motto: “Every plant, every day.”

Good luck and good growing.

Michael Christian, the president of American Hydroponics since 1984, is a hydroponic system designer and consultant to commercial growers worldwide.


http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2010/04/hydroponic-recirculation-basics-part-3/
 
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im sorry if this is a stupid question but the values ben posted are these MAX values? cuz arent we trying to add more with air stones in what not.

my point being that many hydro users could not even be getting close to those values without adding o2 on your own?
 
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I believe that is an unairated measurement. The airation for a short period of time raise this value but only or a short time which is why you need to constantly airate and airate in every bucket. At least that is my understanding.
 
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I believe that is an unairated measurement. The airation for a short period of time raise this value but only or a short time which is why you need to constantly airate and airate in every bucket. At least that is my understanding.
aw okay thats what i meant thanks lost.

so your saying added levels of o2 cant be added to these numbers papa?

or by aerating are we just doing doing something different... (by we i mean anyone using bubbles, i am not)
 
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MC is Da Mang

Michael Christian from Am Hydro is a true pioneer and an authentic mentor to many hydro heads.....nice find Lost.
 

Papa

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Staff member
Supporter
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so your saying added levels of o2 cant be added to these numbers papa?
"Saturation Levels" means that's as much oxygen as you can get dissolved into water . . . (at sea level, i believe). those are the numbers that we are attempting to get as close as possible to.

google "dissolved oxygen site:www.thcfarmer.com" and you will find many threads that discuss this.

i'm still looking for someone with a DO meter and a UC or MPB system to give us some actual data. fatman claimed to have an entire shelf of DO meters . . . but couldn't stay unbanned long enough to give us numbers.



Papa
 
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I've found DO meters to be a pain in the ass......calibrating every time you use, faulty electrodes, hundreds of dollars for sub par meters....fug that.

Salifert (out of Holland) makes an analog, hand test kit that is accurate enough to make observations, is dependable and available at most aquarium supply shops.

Pretty much easy enough for anyone to use.....with as many people as run MPB/UC systems we should be able to start tallying some data.

www.bizrate.com/fish-supplies/oid935501820.html
 
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"Saturation Levels" means that's as much oxygen as you can get dissolved into water . . . (at sea level, i believe). those are the numbers that we are attempting to get as close as possible to.

google "dissolved oxygen site:www.thcfarmer.com" and you will find many threads that discuss this.

i'm still looking for someone with a DO meter and a UC or MPB system to give us some actual data. fatman claimed to have an entire shelf of DO meters . . . but couldn't stay unbanned long enough to give us numbers.



Papa
Papa, you are correct. I believe the DO #'s can be raised beyond for a very short period over their normal levels. Wether the DO number is set and the solution cannot be raised beyond that is a little fuzzy. I do know that a glass of water has a certain do, and if you airate that glass of water the level gets higher. If you airate with a venturi you get another higher #..

I guess what im saying is that I do not understand if the DO levels given are a max no matter how much you airate, or simply a reading from a stagnant source. There is also supersaturation do consider..
 

Papa

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Staff member
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lost,
i think those numbers ben posted are pretty hard. i've seen them quoted in academic papers all the way back to the 1930s. but i have no personal experience in checking DO levels. i got no meter!

and yes, UCMENOW, i have heard the same stories of difficulty in using DO meters. a royal PIA. thanks for the recommendation of the other method. i'll check it out.

i'm wondering . . . just for instance . . . what the difference in DO levels are in a UC system from in the reservoir versus at the return to the reservoir. how much do we lose running through the system?

JK has said that DO levels are significantly different in different areas of a bucket . . . different levels within the center of a root mass vs. outside the rootmass. i'd love to see those numbers.

the other discussion that we've had several times in the past is the efficiency of various methods of increasing DO in our systems. i found some data that documented that micro bubbles were more energy efficient at making DO than making waterfalls and using venturis. i think that study was done for wastewater treatment, where DO is also a major issue.

which is another discussion that we've had . . . larger bubbles versus smaller bubbles (i know lost is going to make some joke about that sentence, go for it.). the theory in wastewater is smaller bubbles are the way to go because the surface area of 1 cc of many small bubbles is larger than the surface area of 1 cc of larger bubbles . . . and that increases the area of air/water contact . . . which is better. the other factor which comes into play with DO in wastewater treatment is contact time . . . which they control with depth of the "airstones." typical depth is 20+ feet, so each bubble is in contact with the water for several seconds. we don't usually have that ability, except in the case of my super secret new reservoir that i'm building for my new RDWC system:










Papa
 
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Jacuzzi Roots ?House Party

I think with rootzones....my observations been its the presence of both course and micro-bubbles. The micro bubbles being easier for the roots to assimilate, while the more course bubbles helping to agitate and displace the roots. This in turn promoting lateral suspension of the most primordial root tips.

IMO.....its this root buoyancy in the "root zone" that helps promote more bushy, lateral plant growth in the plants "leaf zone".

I think this is one reason you tend to see naturally bushy plants growing in the UC's & MPB's more often than not.

Disclaimer.....I make real world observations, I'm not a scientist....I'm a farmer.
 
Should we presume that these values are for pure (or relatively pure) water, though? Saturation levels of other compounds affects DO2 levels in my experience (aquatics, not hydroponics). For instance, you'll never achieve the same DO levels in saltwater, even chilled down to 32F, that you do in freshwater.

Has anyone created a data set for DO levels in a hydro set-up?
Yes, these values are for pure water with a low ppm (50ppm or less). bd


That scale Ben posted is most likely based on low (50ppm or less, possibly even RO) water......high amounts of dissolved solids most definitely reduce waters ability to hold oxygen in suspension.

This is one of the main advantages to running lower nute concentrations.....keep your DO high as possible and your PPM's only as high as necessary to meet your plants nutritional needs.

Thanks for sharing that D.O. scale Ben.
Couldn't have said it better myself, spot on.

As for keeping your ppm only as high as necessary to meet you plants nutritional needs, I am seeing first hand that this statement is absolutely true. Currently I am running the ppm in my Under Current systems between high 1500's and low 1600's. The ppm levels rise during the week and at the end of the week I bring the ppm back down using fresh water. I have had the plants up to 1860 ppm as of today and the plants have shown very little tip burn at this level but, it is obvious that they are using more water then salts at this ppm level due to the fact that my ppm levels are rising throughout the week. I am starting to think that my ppm levels are to high even though the plants are not showing any major signs of stress. bd

Referring back to the FAQ's on the Current Culture web site they answer the question "What should the top off reservoir be balanced to?" The answer given is... "When operated properly, top off should be balanced the same as the solution in the system.....Ideally the solution in the system should stay balanced even as the plants use the nutrients and water. As a rule of thumb if the nutrient ppm rises as the solution is depleted you are likely running your ppm levels too high to begin with. Conversely, if your ppm drops it indicates you started to low. Ultimately, as solution levels drop in the system the ppm should stay stable, this is a good indicator that you are dialed in. This ppm stability will translate into improved plant health and greater pH stability to boot."

The answer above is definably based off of experience... Imagine that, not only do they design and build them but, they actually know how to use them too! very nice! bd


Disclaimer.....I make real world observations, I'm not a scientist....I'm a farmer.
Sounds like you might have a little of both running through your blood my friend... bd
 
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Sounds like you might have a little of both running through your blood my friend... bd
I was going to say the same thing.

Ben thanks for the thought provoking post. Any other stuff you can help to educate us with?

UCME - The rubber blatter that is in the control bucket, is this because it is only cost effective to do in the control bucket?

Perhaps a delux version with rubber airstones for each tub?

Have you considered running a drip pump off of the res change valve?

Just thinking of options that the customer can add like top drip (so easilly added to your current system. Add a 200 gph pump and one of the splitters that run up to 12 drippers. Add in a dripper with a variable head so you can adjust the flow. It would allow people to run 100% pearlite with a top drip in a 6 or 8 inch coco-tek basket.

Can you take the dimentions of the 13 gallon and make a 25 gallon? Just wondering.. The shape of the UC is better than the MPB I think.. Just needs to be deeper, that will also permit aero later..

I think that you could offer a 3-4k system with things like pre cut reflectix covers for the tubs. Probablly cheap to make a ton at a time and what a time saver for the hobbiest.

You could have a ttop drip upgrade. A refletix covering upgrade for high lumen operations. A prime chiller upgrade where it comes with the chiller and a pump that will offer proper flow, etc. Make it brainless for the hobbiest. The commercial guys want it barebones like you have now. The hobbiest and well off medical client want a turnkey operation complete with nutes and schedual. You guys have the know how to do that. Hell, simply offer a veg and bloom amount of H&G nutes with their schedual. Just add the lights!!

Ok, pipe dream done.... lol
 
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